Christianity and Predestination

[RealityStrikes]

Are there different views? I had an uncomfortable conversation at a funeral yesterday with a friend who left the Catholic church about a year ago and joined a Presbyterian Church. No biggie, except her mother got upset and they haven't spoken since.

She belongs to a Bible Study group and they told her that the rift between her mother and her, was "all part of God's plan". I told her that's rubbish, and she needs to make amends with her mom who is all alone. She said everything is predestined and she cannot change the course of events. Being the outspoken person that I am I told her "maybe it was God's plan that we met in this church on this day and I was sent to tell her that her Bible friends were giving her bad advice". She said she'd have to think about that one.

Is this a precept of the Presbyterian church? Is it part of Christian thinking? Forgive me for my ignorance. I was raised Catholic.

Well to be totally honest with you, her mom is unfortunately the problem and not the Presbyterian Church. She acts as though her daughter has disowned God all together. which she hasn't. The whole idea is to gain a relationship with God. Not debating which denomination is better. And her mom should understand that leaving the catholic church doesn't mean leaving God himself. So in a sense her mom is being selfish and thinking about her own feelings towards the situation.

I would also disagree with the rift being part of God's plan. God doesn't cause chaos and break up families, the devil does.

I agree the mother was in the wrong, but both Presbyterians and Roman Catholics have the same Christ. Jesus taught that 'being right' did not trump 'doing right' and he taught that when we are wronged we should be willing to turn the other cheek in an effort to encourage the other to get it right. That is not at all the same thing as tolerating the abuse others will intentionally heap on us or inviting them to abuse/harm us, but it means give them a second chance to get it right.

The daughter is the one who has been wronged. But she magnifies the wrong by being stiff necked and requiring her mother to make the first move. If the daughter makes an honest effort to repair the situation regardless of who is at fault, and the mother rejects it, then the daughter has at least done all she can realistically do and may have to decide to get on with her life sans mom. That would be a real shame though.

Agreed. And this is the reason why her mom should have an understanding. The God of the Catholic Church is the same God of the Presbyterian Church. Putting your loyalty towards the church before God himself, isn't helping to resolve this problem.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Thanks Cecelia. I agree. I suspect that she's going through some kind of "mid-life" crisis, and has found it's easier to just "defer to God". Her daughter will be headed off to college next year and her 15 year old son is a handful. People cope in different ways.

I am not going to stick my nose in any further, but I see her frequently at scouting and school events. I may just politely mention that her mom would really enjoy being there. I heard someone say the other day "Would you rather BE right or DO right?" I may use that line with her.

Cecilie did sort of refocus us on the original question didn't she. As message boarders will do we went off on a theological tangent and forgot all about the real issue which was estrangement of mother and daughter.

But the line: would you rather be right or do right?-- is a very good line and pertinent to what even Presbyterians teach. Roman Catholics too for that matter. Maybe just mention to your friend that you hope she and her mother are able to work it out before "Mom" loses all those precious opportunities with her grandchildren. If the daughter's new denomination condones estrangement of family over what church somebody attends, I would rethink that denomination. I do not believe the rank and file Presbyterian would ever give the advice your friend got though.

Offhand, I don't know of any mainstream Christian group that espouses the level of "oh, well" fatalism this woman's words evoke. The idea that one can simply loll about, doing nothing and making no decisions whatsoever and just wait for "God's plan" to handle everything is utterly absurd. That's like saying you don't have to bother to buy food for dinner, because if it's "God's plan" for you to eat, the food'll just appear on the table.

If it's truly God's plan for mother and daughter to be estranged - and I cannot envision any reason why that would be - then any attempts to mend the rift will be unsuccessful. But one must still move and act and decide in life in order to find out what God's plan is.

Invoking "God's plan" in this fashion is merely laziness, an attempt to avoid doing something unpleasant and dodge the responsibility for one's actions by fobbing it off on God. Sort of the flip side to "the devil made me do it".

 

[AllieBaba]

Thanks Cecelia. I agree. I suspect that she's going through some kind of "mid-life" crisis, and has found it's easier to just "defer to God". Her daughter will be headed off to college next year and her 15 year old son is a handful. People cope in different ways.

I am not going to stick my nose in any further, but I see her frequently at scouting and school events. I may just politely mention that her mom would really enjoy being there. I heard someone say the other day "Would you rather BE right or DO right?" I may use that line with her.

Cecilie did sort of refocus us on the original question didn't she. As message boarders will do we went off on a theological tangent and forgot all about the real issue which was estrangement of mother and daughter.

But the line: would you rather be right or do right?-- is a very good line and pertinent to what even Presbyterians teach. Roman Catholics too for that matter. Maybe just mention to your friend that you hope she and her mother are able to work it out before "Mom" loses all those precious opportunities with her grandchildren. If the daughter's new denomination condones estrangement of family over what church somebody attends, I would rethink that denomination. I do not believe the rank and file Presbyterian would ever give the advice your friend got though.

Offhand, I don't know of any mainstream Christian group that espouses the level of "oh, well" fatalism this woman's words evoke. The idea that one can simply loll about, doing nothing and making no decisions whatsoever and just wait for "God's plan" to handle everything is utterly absurd. That's like saying you don't have to bother to buy food for dinner, because if it's "God's plan" for you to eat, the food'll just appear on the table.

If it's truly God's plan for mother and daughter to be estranged - and I cannot envision any reason why that would be - then any attempts to mend the rift will be unsuccessful. But one must still move and act and decide in life in order to find out what God's plan is.

Invoking "God's plan" in this fashion is merely laziness, an attempt to avoid doing something unpleasant and dodge the responsibility for one's actions by fobbing it off on God. Sort of the flip side to "the devil made me do it".

Bingo.
I have seen so many people do this, too, and it always shocks me that they don't realize how facile and sinful they're being.

And I sure don't tell them, I've got sins of my own to worry about.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Are there different views? I had an uncomfortable conversation at a funeral yesterday with a friend who left the Catholic church about a year ago and joined a Presbyterian Church. No biggie, except her mother got upset and they haven't spoken since.

She belongs to a Bible Study group and they told her that the rift between her mother and her, was "all part of God's plan". I told her that's rubbish, and she needs to make amends with her mom who is all alone. She said everything is predestined and she cannot change the course of events. Being the outspoken person that I am I told her "maybe it was God's plan that we met in this church on this day and I was sent to tell her that her Bible friends were giving her bad advice". She said she'd have to think about that one.

Is this a precept of the Presbyterian church? Is it part of Christian thinking? Forgive me for my ignorance. I was raised Catholic.

Well to be totally honest with you, her mom is unfortunately the problem and not the Presbyterian Church. She acts as though her daughter has disowned God all together. which she hasn't. The whole idea is to gain a relationship with God. Not debating which denomination is better. And her mom should understand that leaving the catholic church doesn't mean leaving God himself. So in a sense her mom is being selfish and thinking about her own feelings towards the situation.

I would also disagree with the rift being part of God's plan. God doesn't cause chaos and break up families, the devil does.

Her mom may be PART of the problem, but if the daughter is flatly refusing to make any effort to reopen communications, then SHE is part of the problem, too.

Perhaps God's plan is for them to heal the rift, and right now He has someone else working on the mother, talking to her about how important family is. The daughter will never know until she gets off her excuse-making butt and picks up the phone, will she?

 

[logical4u]

Are there different views? I had an uncomfortable conversation at a funeral yesterday with a friend who left the Catholic church about a year ago and joined a Presbyterian Church. No biggie, except her mother got upset and they haven't spoken since.

She belongs to a Bible Study group and they told her that the rift between her mother and her, was "all part of God's plan". I told her that's rubbish, and she needs to make amends with her mom who is all alone. She said everything is predestined and she cannot change the course of events. Being the outspoken person that I am I told her "maybe it was God's plan that we met in this church on this day and I was sent to tell her that her Bible friends were giving her bad advice". She said she'd have to think about that one.

Is this a precept of the Presbyterian church? Is it part of Christian thinking? Forgive me for my ignorance. I was raised Catholic.

Is she "honoring her mother (and father) by her actions?

Is she "loving her neighbor (mother) as herself?

Breaking it down to basics.

 

[FactFinder]

It is always up to you. If your heart is so hard then you have predestined yourself. Anyway here is a reasonable explanation.

What is predestination? Is predestination Biblical?

The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23), and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen, because they are receiving what they deserve. God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God; therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some.

 

[Missourian]

Do you want to read something cool?


The Real Rules for Time Travelers | Cosmology | DISCOVER Magazine

We discussed this last year in relation to predestination.

It explains scientifically the theories involved with knowing the outcome of past events and avoiding paradox.

We can extrapolate from this a theory that from God's perspective all events are fixed, as God has knowledge of all events past, present and future from our perspective...and that we have free will, as our future is fluid, from our perspective.

It's just an interesting theory...but read the article...it will blow your mind.

Sometimes my links don't work when I post from my phone...if it doesn't, just google "Discovery magazine rules for time travellers" and enjoy.

 

[RealityStrikes]

Are there different views? I had an uncomfortable conversation at a funeral yesterday with a friend who left the Catholic church about a year ago and joined a Presbyterian Church. No biggie, except her mother got upset and they haven't spoken since.

She belongs to a Bible Study group and they told her that the rift between her mother and her, was "all part of God's plan". I told her that's rubbish, and she needs to make amends with her mom who is all alone. She said everything is predestined and she cannot change the course of events. Being the outspoken person that I am I told her "maybe it was God's plan that we met in this church on this day and I was sent to tell her that her Bible friends were giving her bad advice". She said she'd have to think about that one.

Is this a precept of the Presbyterian church? Is it part of Christian thinking? Forgive me for my ignorance. I was raised Catholic.

Well to be totally honest with you, her mom is unfortunately the problem and not the Presbyterian Church. She acts as though her daughter has disowned God all together. which she hasn't. The whole idea is to gain a relationship with God. Not debating which denomination is better. And her mom should understand that leaving the catholic church doesn't mean leaving God himself. So in a sense her mom is being selfish and thinking about her own feelings towards the situation.

I would also disagree with the rift being part of God's plan. God doesn't cause chaos and break up families, the devil does.

Her mom may be PART of the problem, but if the daughter is flatly refusing to make any effort to reopen communications, then SHE is part of the problem, too.

Perhaps God's plan is for them to heal the rift, and right now He has someone else working on the mother, talking to her about how important family is. The daughter will never know until she gets off her excuse-making butt and picks up the phone, will she?

So you think that even though her mom cut ties, it's the daughter's moral obligation to at least attempt to retie the knot? Hmmmmm. Interesting and good points.

 

[whitehall]

Are there different views? I had an uncomfortable conversation at a funeral yesterday with a friend who left the Catholic church about a year ago and joined a Presbyterian Church. No biggie, except her mother got upset and they haven't spoken since.

She belongs to a Bible Study group and they told her that the rift between her mother and her, was "all part of God's plan". I told her that's rubbish, and she needs to make amends with her mom who is all alone. She said everything is predestined and she cannot change the course of events. Being the outspoken person that I am I told her "maybe it was God's plan that we met in this church on this day and I was sent to tell her that her Bible friends were giving her bad advice". She said she'd have to think about that one.

Is this a precept of the Presbyterian church? Is it part of Christian thinking? Forgive me for my ignorance. I was raised Catholic.

Ever think that maybe you should stay out of it? Why not pick a Palestinian famiy and council them on jihad suicide if you need to get involved in religious dogma.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Well to be totally honest with you, her mom is unfortunately the problem and not the Presbyterian Church. She acts as though her daughter has disowned God all together. which she hasn't. The whole idea is to gain a relationship with God. Not debating which denomination is better. And her mom should understand that leaving the catholic church doesn't mean leaving God himself. So in a sense her mom is being selfish and thinking about her own feelings towards the situation.

I would also disagree with the rift being part of God's plan. God doesn't cause chaos and break up families, the devil does.

Her mom may be PART of the problem, but if the daughter is flatly refusing to make any effort to reopen communications, then SHE is part of the problem, too.

Perhaps God's plan is for them to heal the rift, and right now He has someone else working on the mother, talking to her about how important family is. The daughter will never know until she gets off her excuse-making butt and picks up the phone, will she?

So you think that even though her mom cut ties, it's the daughter's moral obligation to at least attempt to retie the knot? Hmmmmm. Interesting and good points.

I don't know that the mom "cut ties". The original post just said that the mom got upset and that they haven't spoken since. Sounds more like they had an argument, and BOTH of them cut ties.

And yeah, whoever was responsible for the break, one's moral obligations are not dependent on what other people do. Just because a family member behaves like a jackass doesn't mean they aren't still family, and doesn't relieve us of the obligation to still love them. Would we want our families to stop loving US when WE behave like jackasses? And I think that goes double for parents, because THEY'RE YOUR PARENTS. Fallible and flawed though they are - because everyone is - they gave you life and cared for you when you were a helpless baby and suffered through your adolescence without killing you or selling you to the highest bidder. You don't just abandon them.

This woman should also consider that parents aren't around forever. Is "It was God's will" going to be much of a comfort to her when her mother's dead and the option of healing the breach is lost for good?

 

[sparky]

What many often miss applying predestination to catholosim is Original Sin

Intense's post on page 1 dances all around it

so do most Catholics for that matter....

~S~

 

[editec]

Logically one cannot have free will and predestination, too.

Of course, for those who put GOD beyond all of mankind's logic, then pretty much anything they can come up with is plausible.

Anything they decide about God and presestination they can defend by saying that it doesn't have to make sense since GOD is capable of any and everything.

My point here isn't that one side is right or wrong (although I obviously think that one side IS wrong) but rather that, given the inherent dislogic behind believing in both predestination and free will, having any kind of meaningful DEBATE is impossible.

All we can do is weight in with our thoughts on this entirely-impossible-to-really-debte subject.

 

[code1211]

It's definitely an interesting topic.

I grew up in the Lutheran Church, which generally takes a very literal interpretation of the Bible. The way that I was taught Scripture comes close to what Intense commented on. The idea that we have the Free Will to choose how we wish to live our lives, but that God already knows what we will choose and has already determined what the final disposition of our soul will be because of it.

Personally, I am no longer a member of any Christian faith or other organized religion at this point in my life, and I have become a very strong believer in a form of predestination known at Fateism.... the idea that the fabric of our lives is woven and cut to length at the moment of our birth and that there is nothing we or any Divine Power can do to alter it.

I think that is the inevitable destination of that train of logic.

How do you square the idea of a merciful God creating a soul to suffer in Hell for all eternity after the eye blink existance on Earth?

 

[code1211]

We all have free will on our own actions. If we did not have free will then God would not have allowed Adam and Eve to partake the forbidden fruit. Each individual has a choice in taking the Lord as their Savior too. Yet major earthquakes and other natural events may have been predestined to occur.
to that.

Of course that brings up Judas.

Whether Adam and Eve had the free will to either eat the apple or not, did God, the all knowing, all seeing omnipotent Master of the universe, have foreknowledge of their decision or not?

If not, is the definition wrong?

 

[sangha]

Her mom may be PART of the problem, but if the daughter is flatly refusing to make any effort to reopen communications, then SHE is part of the problem, too.

Perhaps God's plan is for them to heal the rift, and right now He has someone else working on the mother, talking to her about how important family is. The daughter will never know until she gets off her excuse-making butt and picks up the phone, will she?

So you think that even though her mom cut ties, it's the daughter's moral obligation to at least attempt to retie the knot? Hmmmmm. Interesting and good points.

I don't know that the mom "cut ties". The original post just said that the mom got upset and that they haven't spoken since. Sounds more like they had an argument, and BOTH of them cut ties.

And yeah, whoever was responsible for the break, one's moral obligations are not dependent on what other people do. Just because a family member behaves like a jackass doesn't mean they aren't still family, and doesn't relieve us of the obligation to still love them. Would we want our families to stop loving US when WE behave like jackasses? And I think that goes double for parents, because THEY'RE YOUR PARENTS. Fallible and flawed though they are - because everyone is - they gave you life and cared for you when you were a helpless baby and suffered through your adolescence without killing you or selling you to the highest bidder. You don't just abandon them.

This woman should also consider that parents aren't around forever. Is "It was God's will" going to be much of a comfort to her when her mother's dead and the option of healing the breach is lost for good?

The idea that one should love, or merely just respect them, simply because THEY'RE YOUR PARENTS is exceedingly authoritarian. And the assumption that all parents gave the child life (someones never heard of adoption) and care for them (someones never heard of neglectful or abusive parents) and suffered for them (someones never heard of abusive parents) and didn't sell them (someones never heard of child slavery) is not just ignorant, it's stupid

Some parents don't deserve the love of their child

Man caught eating baby