Christianity and Predestination

[freeandfun1]

Put into its simplest terms, the predestination mentioned in the New Testament provides much ammunition for controversy and very little for consensus.

St. Augustine, one of the great Church fathers, interpreted it to mean that we are all predestined for salvation through grace.

That concept was turned on its head by Martin Luther, however, the father of the Reformation and the one who unwillingly founded "Protestantism." Luther loved the Catholic Church and never intended to separate from it. He did intend to reform it however when he came to object to a concept that it was the Church and not Christ that was the vehicle through which salvation by grace was obtained.

Grace by definition is a gift from God. It cannot be earned nor merited. You can't work for it. You can't deserve it because we are all sinners. It is a gift from God freely given.

So Luther developed the doctrine of predestination to mean that you can't even ask for grace as that would be 'earning' grace through works rather than as a free gift from God.

Calvin took that doctrine to the extreme. We cannot do anything to achieve grace as it is God's perogative alone. Therefore it is a fact that some will be born predestined for heaven and some predestined for hell which is the core of Calvinist theology.

Those who reject Calivinism--and that would be me --simply cannot reconcile a God we have experienced as love and a God who would allow people to be born knowing they were headed straight for hell. Nor do we believe that we are puppets manipulated by some sadistic being who forces us into unwise choices and suffering.

Without free will there cannot be love. And free will implies choice--choice to choose wisely. Choice to choose badly. Perhaps even choice to choose heaven by allowing God to take us there or refusing that option and therefore choosing hell, whatever that is.

Very good reply. I would only add that people often mistake and confuse "predestination" with "foreknowledge".

He knows what choices we're going to make (even the ultimate choice), but that does not mean he predestines such choices.

 

[Montrovant]

Very good reply. I would only add that people often mistake and confuse "predestination" with "foreknowledge".

He knows what choices we're going to make (even the ultimate choice), but that does not mean he predestines such choices.

If He created everything, and knew beforehand how everything would happen, there is no choice. The only way for choice to truly exist is if there is a possibility of more than one outcome. Without that, our free will is illusion. If there is a god, and he knows how everything is going to occur, and is never surprised, never wrong, then there is no free will, and it is predestination. Which seems like it would be an incredibly boring kind of existence for said god, IMO.

 

[AllieBaba]

Are there different views? I had an uncomfortable conversation at a funeral yesterday with a friend who left the Catholic church about a year ago and joined a Presbyterian Church. No biggie, except her mother got upset and they haven't spoken since.

She belongs to a Bible Study group and they told her that the rift between her mother and her, was "all part of God's plan". I told her that's rubbish, and she needs to make amends with her mom who is all alone. She said everything is predestined and she cannot change the course of events. Being the outspoken person that I am I told her "maybe it was God's plan that we met in this church on this day and I was sent to tell her that her Bible friends were giving her bad advice". She said she'd have to think about that one.

Is this a precept of the Presbyterian church? Is it part of Christian thinking? Forgive me for my ignorance. I was raised Catholic.

She's wrong and is mixing up her Catholic upbringing with the Presbyterian.

While everything is planned, that is not an excuse to throw one's hands up and stop trying to do the right thing.

 

[zzzz]

Lets look at one man from history, Judas. Was he, from the moment he was born, destined to be Jesus' betrayer and had no choice in the matter? Are you saying that God knew when he was born that he would do what he did and there was no way he could have chosen another path?

 

[Foxfyre]

Put into its simplest terms, the predestination mentioned in the New Testament provides much ammunition for controversy and very little for consensus.

St. Augustine, one of the great Church fathers, interpreted it to mean that we are all predestined for salvation through grace.

That concept was turned on its head by Martin Luther, however, the father of the Reformation and the one who unwillingly founded "Protestantism." Luther loved the Catholic Church and never intended to separate from it. He did intend to reform it however when he came to object to a concept that it was the Church and not Christ that was the vehicle through which salvation by grace was obtained.

Grace by definition is a gift from God. It cannot be earned nor merited. You can't work for it. You can't deserve it because we are all sinners. It is a gift from God freely given.

So Luther developed the doctrine of predestination to mean that you can't even ask for grace as that would be 'earning' grace through works rather than as a free gift from God.

Calvin took that doctrine to the extreme. We cannot do anything to achieve grace as it is God's perogative alone. Therefore it is a fact that some will be born predestined for heaven and some predestined for hell which is the core of Calvinist theology.

Those who reject Calivinism--and that would be me --simply cannot reconcile a God we have experienced as love and a God who would allow people to be born knowing they were headed straight for hell. Nor do we believe that we are puppets manipulated by some sadistic being who forces us into unwise choices and suffering.

Without free will there cannot be love. And free will implies choice--choice to choose wisely. Choice to choose badly. Perhaps even choice to choose heaven by allowing God to take us there or refusing that option and therefore choosing hell, whatever that is.

Very good reply. I would only add that people often mistake and confuse "predestination" with "foreknowledge".

He knows what choices we're going to make (even the ultimate choice), but that does not mean he predestines such choices.

I respect anybody's views about that friend, but I can't even accept that. If all the choices we will make are already known then they are already set and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. That for me is unacceptable. If I am unable to repent, unable to turn things around, unable to be better, do it better, be better regardless of the final outcome, then Jesus' death and resurrection were all for naught. If we cannot change our destiny through the choices we make, there is no free will. We are merely puppets in some cosmic play that cannot be rewriten.

 

[freeandfun1]

For those of you that have replied, again, you're confusing predestination with foreknowledge.

One does not equate to the other.

God is outside of time and as such, can and does know what choices we are going to make even before we do. But that knowledge does not equate to Him predestinating what is to happen. The choices are still our own.

If He were to interfere with out choices, then that would rendering Free Will null and void.

Not to sound harsh, but I'm not sure how some of you can't grasp the difference.

 

[freeandfun1]

Put into its simplest terms, the predestination mentioned in the New Testament provides much ammunition for controversy and very little for consensus.

St. Augustine, one of the great Church fathers, interpreted it to mean that we are all predestined for salvation through grace.

That concept was turned on its head by Martin Luther, however, the father of the Reformation and the one who unwillingly founded "Protestantism." Luther loved the Catholic Church and never intended to separate from it. He did intend to reform it however when he came to object to a concept that it was the Church and not Christ that was the vehicle through which salvation by grace was obtained.

Grace by definition is a gift from God. It cannot be earned nor merited. You can't work for it. You can't deserve it because we are all sinners. It is a gift from God freely given.

So Luther developed the doctrine of predestination to mean that you can't even ask for grace as that would be 'earning' grace through works rather than as a free gift from God.

Calvin took that doctrine to the extreme. We cannot do anything to achieve grace as it is God's perogative alone. Therefore it is a fact that some will be born predestined for heaven and some predestined for hell which is the core of Calvinist theology.

Those who reject Calivinism--and that would be me --simply cannot reconcile a God we have experienced as love and a God who would allow people to be born knowing they were headed straight for hell. Nor do we believe that we are puppets manipulated by some sadistic being who forces us into unwise choices and suffering.

Without free will there cannot be love. And free will implies choice--choice to choose wisely. Choice to choose badly. Perhaps even choice to choose heaven by allowing God to take us there or refusing that option and therefore choosing hell, whatever that is.

Very good reply. I would only add that people often mistake and confuse "predestination" with "foreknowledge".

He knows what choices we're going to make (even the ultimate choice), but that does not mean he predestines such choices.

I respect anybody's views about that friend, but I can't even accept that. If all the choices we will make are already known then they are already set and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. That for me is unacceptable. If I am unable to repent, unable to turn things around, unable to be better, do it better, be better regardless of the final outcome, then Jesus' death and resurrection were all for naught. If we cannot change our destiny through the choices we make, there is no free will. We are merely puppets in some cosmic play that cannot be rewriten.

How does foreknowledge prevent one from repenting?

Also, I'm one that believes that we are only saved by belief. We cannot do anything that will get us into heaven other than believing in the One He sent. The gift of Grace is free and it's up to us to accept it or not.

 

[zzzz]

For those of you that have replied, again, you're confusing predestination with foreknowledge.

One does not equate to the other.

God is outside of time and as such, can and does know what choices we are going to make even before we do. But that knowledge does not equate to Him predestinating what is to happen. The choices are still our own.

If He were to interfere with out choices, then that would rendering Free Will null and void.

Not to sound harsh, but I'm not sure how some of you can't grasp the difference.

Foreknowledge is predestination.

 

[Foxfyre]

Very good reply. I would only add that people often mistake and confuse "predestination" with "foreknowledge".

He knows what choices we're going to make (even the ultimate choice), but that does not mean he predestines such choices.

I respect anybody's views about that friend, but I can't even accept that. If all the choices we will make are already known then they are already set and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. That for me is unacceptable. If I am unable to repent, unable to turn things around, unable to be better, do it better, be better regardless of the final outcome, then Jesus' death and resurrection were all for naught. If we cannot change our destiny through the choices we make, there is no free will. We are merely puppets in some cosmic play that cannot be rewriten.

How does foreknowledge prevent one from repenting?

Also, I'm one that believes that we are only saved by belief. We cannot do anything that will get us into heaven other than believing in the One He sent. The gift of Grace is free and it's up to us to accept it or not.

Because in order for there to be foreknowledge of what choices are going to be, those chocies have already be made. They are unchangeable.

That puts me in the position of believing in a loving God who looks ahead a year, ten years, a lifetime and see every stupid thing I'm going to do and the havoc I am going to cause for myself and/or others and does absolutely nothing to intervene in that. If it is already determined/known, then what purpose is there to anything? Some kind of sadistic play for cosmic beings to watch? The God I know is not a God like that.

I can believe in a God who knows the consequences of my current course and choices. But I have to believe I can change that course and those choices. If I cannot, I am but a pawn on a chessboard being moved around as somebody else has already foreordained.

 

[freeandfun1]

For those of you that have replied, again, you're confusing predestination with foreknowledge.

One does not equate to the other.

God is outside of time and as such, can and does know what choices we are going to make even before we do. But that knowledge does not equate to Him predestinating what is to happen. The choices are still our own.

If He were to interfere with out choices, then that would rendering Free Will null and void.

Not to sound harsh, but I'm not sure how some of you can't grasp the difference.

Foreknowledge is predestination.

How so? You can know that an event is going to happen, yet not stop it. That's foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge is precognition or knowledge of an event before it occurs.

Predestination is the belief that God set everything in motion and predetermined the outcome.

They are not equal concepts.

 

[Foxfyre]

For those of you that have replied, again, you're confusing predestination with foreknowledge.

One does not equate to the other.

God is outside of time and as such, can and does know what choices we are going to make even before we do. But that knowledge does not equate to Him predestinating what is to happen. The choices are still our own.

If He were to interfere with out choices, then that would rendering Free Will null and void.

Not to sound harsh, but I'm not sure how some of you can't grasp the difference.

Foreknowledge is predestination.

How so? You can know that an event is going to happen, yet not stop it. That's foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge is precognition or knowledge of an event before it occurs.

Predestination is the belief that God set everything in motion and predetermined the outcome.

They are not equal concepts.

But if everything is already set and cannot be stopped, how did it come to be set? Who did that? Either God created us as spiritual beings with free will meaning we can choose and/or strive for any destiny we wish, or he created us as beings in which our choices are unchangeable. Why would God create a being if he knew that being would make terrible choices? This is the paradox, the dichotomy, that Calvinists vs the free will group have been debating for centuries now.

 

[zzzz]

For those of you that have replied, again, you're confusing predestination with foreknowledge.

One does not equate to the other.

God is outside of time and as such, can and does know what choices we are going to make even before we do. But that knowledge does not equate to Him predestinating what is to happen. The choices are still our own.

If He were to interfere with out choices, then that would rendering Free Will null and void.

Not to sound harsh, but I'm not sure how some of you can't grasp the difference.

Foreknowledge is predestination.

How so? You can know that an event is going to happen, yet not stop it. That's foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge is precognition or knowledge of an event before it occurs.

Predestination is the belief that God set everything in motion and predetermined the outcome.

They are not equal concepts.

If something was not predestined to happen then you cannot have foreknowledge of the event. They are both connected, you cannot have one without the other.

 

[freeandfun1]

Because in order for there to be foreknowledge of what choices are going to be, those chocies have already be made. They are unchangeable.

Again, God is outside of time and is all knowing. I do not see how you can equate knowledge with predestination. He doesn't make us make the choices we make nor does He program us to make the choices we make. But he KNOWS the choices we'll make.

That puts me in the position of believing in a loving God who looks ahead a year, ten years, a lifetime and see every stupid thing I'm going to do and the havoc I am going to cause for myself and/or others and does absolutely nothing to intervene in that. If it is already determined/known, then what purpose is there to anything? Some kind of sadistic play for cosmic beings to watch? The God I know is not a God like that.

I can believe in a God who knows the consequences of my current course and choices. But I have to believe I can change that course and those choices. If I cannot, I am but a pawn on a chessboard being moved around as somebody else has already foreordained.

If he interviened, then yes, you'd be a pawn. One the one hand you say you can't believe he wouldn't intervene to prevent you from wreaking havoc, then you say that if you can't make your own choices, you're just a pawn (I paraphrased). Which is it?

Where has it been said that you can't change your choices? The choices are all your's to make. But that doesn't mean He doesn't already know what choices you'll make.

As a close friend explained it to me before, Salvation is our choice and God foreknows what choice we will make. He then predestines things according to our choice.

Sometimes God says that he’ll make something happen in the future, but most often He just says that He knows what will happen. In Romans 8:29 both are evident. First He knew that we would love Him (foreknowledge), then He appointed us to be conformed to the likeness of His Son (predestination).

Or put in another way; It can be compared to making a reservation at a restaurant. By calling on Tuesday to make a reservation for Saturday you are predestined to be there, having determined beforehand that you’re going. The restaurant will be expecting you when you arrive. Add a few thousand years to the equation and that’s what God has done. The difference is that because of His foreknowledge, God knew you were going to need a place in His Kingdom long before you did so He made the reservation for you.


There can be no predestination without foreknowledge; but there can be foreknowledge without predestination.

 

[freeandfun1]

Foreknowledge is predestination.

How so? You can know that an event is going to happen, yet not stop it. That's foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge is precognition or knowledge of an event before it occurs.

Predestination is the belief that God set everything in motion and predetermined the outcome.

They are not equal concepts.

But if everything is already set and cannot be stopped, how did it come to be set? Who did that? Either God created us as spiritual beings with free will meaning we can choose and/or strive for any destiny we wish, or he created us as beings in which our choices are unchangeable. Why would God create a being if he knew that being would make terrible choices? This is the paradox, the dichotomy, that Calvinists vs the free will group have been debating for centuries now.

Yes, for some I guess the debate will never be settled. But for me, it is!

 

[Foxfyre]

How so? You can know that an event is going to happen, yet not stop it. That's foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge is precognition or knowledge of an event before it occurs.

Predestination is the belief that God set everything in motion and predetermined the outcome.

They are not equal concepts.

But if everything is already set and cannot be stopped, how did it come to be set? Who did that? Either God created us as spiritual beings with free will meaning we can choose and/or strive for any destiny we wish, or he created us as beings in which our choices are unchangeable. Why would God create a being if he knew that being would make terrible choices? This is the paradox, the dichotomy, that Calvinists vs the free will group have been debating for centuries now.

Yes, for some I guess the debate will never be settled. But for me, it is!

And that's cool. I love debating this stuff but I won't fight about it with anybody. Peace.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Are there different views? I had an uncomfortable conversation at a funeral yesterday with a friend who left the Catholic church about a year ago and joined a Presbyterian Church. No biggie, except her mother got upset and they haven't spoken since.

She belongs to a Bible Study group and they told her that the rift between her mother and her, was "all part of God's plan". I told her that's rubbish, and she needs to make amends with her mom who is all alone. She said everything is predestined and she cannot change the course of events. Being the outspoken person that I am I told her "maybe it was God's plan that we met in this church on this day and I was sent to tell her that her Bible friends were giving her bad advice". She said she'd have to think about that one.

Is this a precept of the Presbyterian church? Is it part of Christian thinking? Forgive me for my ignorance. I was raised Catholic.

I haven't a clue what the Presbyterians teach, but I can tell you that the idea of predestination - while found all over the place in rank-and-file people - is certainly not universal Christian doctrine. After all, it negates the entire premise of free will, without which virtually everything else in Christianity collapses. How can you possibly sin and need forgiveness if it was all predestined, you had no control over it, and it was "God's plan"?

It sounds to me as though your friend has just fallen under the influence of some very woolly-headed thinking, and hasn't bothered to think it through for herself.

Point out to her that the Bible instructs us to honor our parents, and ignoring her mother when she is (presumably) elderly and all alone is certainly not honoring her. I can't imagine how she comes to the conclusion that God "plans" for family members to behave like asses and mistreat each other. He may be able to work with our stupid behavior, but that doesn't mean He wants us to act that way.

 

[chanel]

Thanks Cecelia. I agree. I suspect that she's going through some kind of "mid-life" crisis, and has found it's easier to just "defer to God". Her daughter will be headed off to college next year and her 15 year old son is a handful. People cope in different ways.

I am not going to stick my nose in any further, but I see her frequently at scouting and school events. I may just politely mention that her mom would really enjoy being there. I heard someone say the other day "Would you rather BE right or DO right?" I may use that line with her.

 

[Foxfyre]

Thanks Cecelia. I agree. I suspect that she's going through some kind of "mid-life" crisis, and has found it's easier to just "defer to God". Her daughter will be headed off to college next year and her 15 year old son is a handful. People cope in different ways.

I am not going to stick my nose in any further, but I see her frequently at scouting and school events. I may just politely mention that her mom would really enjoy being there. I heard someone say the other day "Would you rather BE right or DO right?" I may use that line with her.

Cecilie did sort of refocus us on the original question didn't she. As message boarders will do we went off on a theological tangent and forgot all about the real issue which was estrangement of mother and daughter.

But the line: would you rather be right or do right?-- is a very good line and pertinent to what even Presbyterians teach. Roman Catholics too for that matter. Maybe just mention to your friend that you hope she and her mother are able to work it out before "Mom" loses all those precious opportunities with her grandchildren. If the daughter's new denomination condones estrangement of family over what church somebody attends, I would rethink that denomination. I do not believe the rank and file Presbyterian would ever give the advice your friend got though.

 

[RealityStrikes]

Are there different views? I had an uncomfortable conversation at a funeral yesterday with a friend who left the Catholic church about a year ago and joined a Presbyterian Church. No biggie, except her mother got upset and they haven't spoken since.

She belongs to a Bible Study group and they told her that the rift between her mother and her, was "all part of God's plan". I told her that's rubbish, and she needs to make amends with her mom who is all alone. She said everything is predestined and she cannot change the course of events. Being the outspoken person that I am I told her "maybe it was God's plan that we met in this church on this day and I was sent to tell her that her Bible friends were giving her bad advice". She said she'd have to think about that one.

Is this a precept of the Presbyterian church? Is it part of Christian thinking? Forgive me for my ignorance. I was raised Catholic.

Well to be totally honest with you, her mom is unfortunately the problem and not the Presbyterian Church. She acts as though her daughter has disowned God all together. which she hasn't. The whole idea is to gain a relationship with God. Not debating which denomination is better. And her mom should understand that leaving the catholic church doesn't mean leaving God himself. So in a sense her mom is being selfish and thinking about her own feelings towards the situation.

I would also disagree with the rift being part of God's plan. God doesn't cause chaos and break up families, the devil does.

 

[Foxfyre]

Are there different views? I had an uncomfortable conversation at a funeral yesterday with a friend who left the Catholic church about a year ago and joined a Presbyterian Church. No biggie, except her mother got upset and they haven't spoken since.

She belongs to a Bible Study group and they told her that the rift between her mother and her, was "all part of God's plan". I told her that's rubbish, and she needs to make amends with her mom who is all alone. She said everything is predestined and she cannot change the course of events. Being the outspoken person that I am I told her "maybe it was God's plan that we met in this church on this day and I was sent to tell her that her Bible friends were giving her bad advice". She said she'd have to think about that one.

Is this a precept of the Presbyterian church? Is it part of Christian thinking? Forgive me for my ignorance. I was raised Catholic.

Well to be totally honest with you, her mom is unfortunately the problem and not the Presbyterian Church. She acts as though her daughter has disowned God all together. which she hasn't. The whole idea is to gain a relationship with God. Not debating which denomination is better. And her mom should understand that leaving the catholic church doesn't mean leaving God himself. So in a sense her mom is being selfish and thinking about her own feelings towards the situation.

I would also disagree with the rift being part of God's plan. God doesn't cause chaos and break up families, the devil does.

I agree the mother was in the wrong, but both Presbyterians and Roman Catholics have the same Christ. Jesus taught that 'being right' did not trump 'doing right' and he taught that when we are wronged we should be willing to turn the other cheek in an effort to encourage the other to get it right. That is not at all the same thing as tolerating the abuse others will intentionally heap on us or inviting them to abuse/harm us, but it means give them a second chance to get it right.

The daughter is the one who has been wronged. But she magnifies the wrong by being stiff necked and requiring her mother to make the first move. If the daughter makes an honest effort to repair the situation regardless of who is at fault, and the mother rejects it, then the daughter has at least done all she can realistically do and may have to decide to get on with her life sans mom. That would be a real shame though.