Zone1 Christianity and our founding fathers

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

How so?

You know this already, only needed to be reminded. Tell us why you forgot.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Jefferson had this to say about Ding’s God of Abraham

It's your lack of a realistic perception of God and your inability to override your bias which is keeping you from even considering your understanding of the God of Abraham is flawed. No offense but you read the bible like a 12 year old.

Why does anybody have to read the Bible same thing?

God of Abraham you say Saint Ding?

Thomas Jefferson and the Jews

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

While Jefferson advocated for Jewish liberty, he held certain aspects of Judaism in low regard. In fairness, Jefferson opposed all religions based on divine revelation. He believed that God’s existence could be proven by reason and common sense rather than faith. A detractor of all priests, he found those of the Hebrew Bible “a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family of god of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel.”

In 1787, Jefferson summed up his view of Jewish revelation in a letter to his nephew, warning him to be skeptical of “those facts in the Bible which contradict the laws of nature.” As one example, he cited the assertion in the Book of Joshua that the sun stood still for several hours. Since that would have meant, in scientific terms, that the earth stood still, Jefferson asked his nephew to consider how the earth, spinning on its axis, could have stopped suddenly and started rotating again without enormous destruction to natural and manmade structures. Similarly, the rationalist Jefferson doubted that God personally inscribed the Ten Commandments on a tablet which Moses later destroyed and then re-wrote.

It bothered Jefferson that the God of the ancient Hebrews was, in his words, “a being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust.” He could also not understand how Jews could believe that “the God of infinite justice” would “punish the sins of the fathers upon their children, unto the third and fourth generations.” He agreed with the view expressed by John Adams that, in respect to God, “the principle of the Hebrew is fear.”

Jefferson thought that reason and logic demanded a belief in an afterlife, an area in which he found Judaism deficient. Jefferson argued that, without fear of punishment beyond the grave, individuals lacked an incentive to behave well and that, without hope of reuniting with loved ones, family commitments and friendships would lose their gravity. Since a definitive afterlife was not universally accepted in Judaism, Jefferson thought it a religion without utility. Thomas Jefferson and the Jews By Michael Feldberg​

No. I've already won. All Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed in natural law and natural rights. And all Founding Fathers - Christian and Deist alike - believed that God was the source of those rights.

So were those natural rights bestowed upon the chosen Tribes of the God of Abraham extended to any other Tribes other than the Chosen ones who lived on the deserts of Northern Africa prior to the virgin birth of Jesus in Nazareth?

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Ding is merely saying what he believes, but he knows he cannot prove ALL founders believed in God or a Christian God or a dominating Jesus as Our Lord and Savior, much less they all believed in Natural Rights that provided us certain privileges.

It's his claim to prove, and he has not.

 

[ding]

You know this already, only needed to be reminded. Tell us why you forgot.

But I don't know. That's why I asked. So if you believe you know, go ahead and say it. Otherwise, why would you even bring it up in the first place?

 

[ding]

Ding is merely saying what he believes, but he knows he cannot prove ALL founders believed in God or a Christian God or a dominating Jesus as Our Lord and Savior, much less they all believed in Natural Rights that provided us certain privileges.

It's his claim to prove, and he has not.

But the record overwhelmingly shows they did all believe in natural rights and that the source of those rights is the creator.

Feel free to show otherwise.

 

[ding]

So were those natural rights bestowed upon the chosen Tribes of the God of Abraham extended to any other Tribes other than the Chosen ones who lived on the deserts of Northern Africa prior to the virgin birth of Jesus in Nazareth?

No. Everyone. Everyone is God's creatures. That's what I believe and that's what the founding fathers believed too. We have inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

But the record overwhelmingly shows they did all believe in natural rights and that the source of those rights is the creator.

Feel free to show otherwise.

No, the record does not. You have no such statements or records that prove that for every founding father.

I bet direct evidence may show half them of may have thought about it.

 

[ding]

No, the record does not. You have no such statements or records that prove that for every founding father.

I bet direct evidence may show half them of may have thought about it.

"The philosophy of natural rights was championed by such Founding Fathers as Richard Bland, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, Richard Henry Lee, James Madison, George Mason, Robert Carter Nicholas, Peyton Randolph, George Washington, and George Wythe. Indeed, it would be amazing if any Revolutionary leader of the Commonwealth could be found who did not subscribe to the doctrines of natural law and right. Moreover, the doctrine was not limited to the select few who directed Virginia's destinies, but was widely held and continually expressed by the popular assemblages throughout the Commonwealth during Revolutionary days..."

https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3506&context=wlulr#:~:text=He%20once%20wrote%3A%20%22The%20true,be%20limited%20without%20being%20lost.%22

Knock yourself out.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

IOW, the thinking of about a dozen Virginians on the subject indicate the other sixty to seventy felt the same way.

One, we cannot substantiate all of the Virginians felt similarly about Natural Rights. We know the majority prevented Governor Patrick Henry making the Episcopal Church the established church of Virginia.

And you always fail to substantiate that the personalized deistic God of the various founders installed a belief in Natural Rights.

 

[ding]

No, the record does not. You have no such statements or records that prove that for every founding father.

I bet direct evidence may show half them of may have thought about it.

Here's another source.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25716882?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

 

[ding]

IOW, the thinking of about a dozen Virginians on the subject indicate the other sixty to seventy felt the same way.

One, we cannot substantiate all of the Virginians felt similarly about Natural Rights. We know the majority prevented Governor Patrick Henry making the Episcopal Church the established church of Virginia.

And you always fail to substantiate that the personalized deistic God of the various founders installed a belief in Natural Rights.

Don't believe it. I couldn't care less. It's not my job to convince you of the truth. My obligation was satisfied when I presented it.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

But the record overwhelmingly shows they did all believe in natural rights and that the source of those rights is the creator.

It’s got to be somewhat of a moot point. The historical record shows and it’s what Jefferson rebukes agsinst revealed religion, starting with the declaration of independence, He wrote that the Christian churches and Christian empires of Europe, operating under so-called divine authority granted their own population limited rights and basically gave the inhabitants of the New World absolutely no rights unless they converted. English Protestants didn’t consider the natives to be human. Read the story about Pocahontas.

 

[ding]

It’s got to be somewhat of a moot point. The historical record shows and it’s what Jefferson rebukes agsinst revealed religion, starting with the declaration of independence, He write that the Christian churches and Christian empires of Europe, operating under so-called divine authority granted their own population limited rights and basically gave the inhabitants of the New World absolutely no rights unless they converted. English Protestants didn’t consider the natives to be human. Read the story about Pocahontas.

You keep trying to make this about religion because you know you have lost the battle for belief in a creator and natural rights. You say you aren't an atheist but your actions and behaviors say otherwise.

 

[ding]

The Founding Fathers of America - to a man - believed that the existence of the God of Nature whose attributes included being a providential, moralistic creator - whose existence and causal relation to the world - is essential to the foundation of natural-rights.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Oh my God. Saint ding a has become annoyed by the fact that Christianity is about religion.

 

[ding]

Oh my God. Saint ding a has become annoyed by the fact that Christianity is about religion.

No. I'm annoyed by your lack of manners and integrity. But I sleep like a baby at night knowing that your normalization of deviance will eventually lead to predictable surprises. You are free to behave any way you want but you are not free to escape the consequences of your behavior.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You say you aren't an atheist but your actions and behaviors say otherwise.

Saint Ding has only one basic boilerplate argument that he can use against atheists z

So, just like he converts Jefferson into a Christian he’s now converting me who has the same beliefs about God as Jefferson into an atheist. Nice trick though.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

your normalization of deviance

Ye , who are without sin cast the first stone?

 

[ding]

Saint Ding has only one basic boilerplate argument that he can use against atheists z

So, just like he converts Jefferson into a Christian he’s now converting me who has the same beliefs about God as Jefferson into an atheist. Nice trick though.

I don't need arguments against atheists. I don't are what they believe or do. I made an observation about you based upon a statement you made and your posting record.

 

[ding]

Ye , who are without sin cast the first stone?

You clearly have no idea what normalization of deviance is, do you? It has nothing to do with sins. It has to do with standards.