Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop

[Cecilie1200]

I have been battling this for a long tome because of all of my gay friends back in TO. Its actually kept me from entering a ministry.
Because I don't understand why I have to hate well maybe that's not the right word but I don't understand why I have to condemn them.

And who told you you have to condemn people? You sure that's a requirement, and not just your own personal judgementalism telling you that it's your job to pass out decrees on everything? I mean, look how much difficulty you're having right now. The issue is whether or not people have the right to exercise their religious beliefs, and all you can talk about is whether or not YOU think their beliefs are correct. Not once has it occurred to you to say, "Who the hell ASKED me whether their beliefs are correct? Why is it important that I decide that one way or another? What business is it of mine?"

I think you're correct in not entering the ministry, because you appear to have some latent pride issues to work through.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why is it okay for churches, though? Everyone knows that a church won't marry a gay couple, why the different rules?

Surely you can see it for a church Noomi. Come on.

Nope. If it okay for the church (a business) to discriminate, why not other businesses, and vice versa?

Churches aren't businesses.

And why NOT let businesses decide who to do business with? It's long past time we realize that the government does not and should not have the right to micromanage private entities.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Nope. If it okay for the church (a business) to discriminate, why not other businesses, and vice versa?

A church is a religious venue, not a business.

A church makes billions of dollars. Its a business. They are in it for a money, a lot of the time. They don't pay taxes either.

Billions of dollars? What the fuck are you talking about? Churches, first of all, do not "make" money. They are charities, and function on donations. By law, they are required to spend nearly all of their income every year on church functions, being allowed to keep only a small percentage of their money on hand as a hedge against emergencies. There is no money for them to be "in it" for.

Way to shoot your mouth off about something you know jack shit about, but just "know" because you've imagined it that way. Naught but what I would expect from you.

 

[Cecilie1200]

What kind of Christian would I be, if I sacrificed righteousness for the acceptance of men? If my friends cause me to stray my walk with Christ, then I should dissociate. Because, alas, if they were truly my friends, and I theirs, they would respect my path whilst they walk their own.

Here in hurts the heart though. And keeps me from ministry because I cannot find the answer.

Gays are not only my friends but when no one else would accept me, they did. A long time ago.
I can't betray them.

And you think loving someone means you have to approve of and applaud everything they do? The people in your life never do anything wrong, in your eyes, is that it?

I find it very hard to believe you can't find the answers to this. I think you just don't want them to BE the answers, and so you keep trying to make reality be what you want.

 

[Noomi]

A church is a religious venue, not a business.

A church makes billions of dollars. Its a business. They are in it for a money, a lot of the time. They don't pay taxes either.

Billions of dollars? What the fuck are you talking about? Churches, first of all, do not "make" money. They are charities, and function on donations. By law, they are required to spend nearly all of their income every year on church functions, being allowed to keep only a small percentage of their money on hand as a hedge against emergencies. There is no money for them to be "in it" for.

Way to shoot your mouth off about something you know jack shit about, but just "know" because you've imagined it that way. Naught but what I would expect from you.

The Catholic Church is a billion dollar business.

 

[Gadawg73]

If folks do not know that most churches make money they are a little slow.
The church I used to go to went through money like hot cakes. Built a new building at 5 million with 12 stained glass windows at 30K a piece.
Now what do they do with that money? A lot of good things.
But money is the drive of many churches. They buy a lot of expensive things they do not need.
People can spend their own money on what they want to spend it on.

 

[RKMBrown]

Had you any type of deductive reasoning skills, you would understand that it wasn't the making of the product, it was the delivering, the enabling, the being part of the environment surrounding it which drove the couple to deny service. You have no idea what went through their minds when they did deny them service, since you aren't a Christian. You can't assume to know, yet you feel like you have the right to judge them with impunity. Despite your attempt to change the subject, I ask forgiveness for my sins all the time, but obligating someone to sin against their will is a different matter altogether. So thick headed you are.

I'm a christian. Have proclaimed so many times. How can you forget this from one day to the next?

I know what went through their minds, they proclaimed it loudly. Are you deaf that you can not hear? Are you so blind you can not see?

Delivering, enabling what a load of horse poo. Delivery of goods is a part of the sale. Enabling? WTF are you talking about? So now farmers are guilty of sin because their wheat and eggs might be eaten in the form of a cake at a gay wedding? How the hell could they sell to this baker who is known to have committed the sin of enabling gay people by feeding them? WTF is wrong with you.

Obligate to sin? Yeah wow cause selling food to gays is a sin.

Yeah, no Christian I know allows people to participate in sin. Nor does he advocate it. He would never lead another brother in Christ astray. If you weren't blind, you would see that it isn't the selling or the baking. If you weren't deaf, or without understanding as the Christian you claim to be, you would take the time to read the Bible. It clearly rebukes homosexuality, it also teaches you to stand up for your faith and for righteousness. What is so righteous about condoning this kind of sin? May I ask, what is wrong with you?


Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:58


You are so absolutely dense, you will never understand the "they have to deliver it to the wedding, thus they are part of the environment" part. You think that they would allow the couple to deliver such an expensive and well made cake to the wedding themself? How does that work out exactly? You ignore testimonies from people who have experience in the area, the bakery was not without a delivery service. But people cannot nor will they ever accept 'no' for an answer. Religious beliefs be damned. Constitutional rights be damned. The rights of any religious man adhering to his faith be damned also. He is nothing but a slave to political correctness. A slave to the sin he opposes.

You are weak in spirit, RKM. You are willing to sacrifice your Christian values for the sake of tolerating sinful behavior. I don't approve of homosexuality, but I will tolerate the person, not the sin. You claim to know what went through their heads, alas, I wish I could read minds like you. Stop pretending to know what people think unless you were there in their shoes the moment it happened.

And before I go, RKM:

14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

-Romans 14:1-12

I don't think you know what the word condoning means.

The rest of your post is just pure irony.

 

[RKMBrown]

The farmer toils in the fields for a living, none of his works offend anyone. He knows nothing of where the end product of his work goes. He has no choice nor does he care, for none of it violates his conscience. The hens he dutifully raises, who lay the eggs which make the batter of that cake, carry on the life which God wills upon them; they serve their purpose in this world, they have no conscience of consequence, of right or wrong, of good or bad, or of sinfulness and righteousness. The couple in this bakery know what the Bible says about homosexuality, they have a sense of right and wrong, a sense of good or bad, a sense of sinfulness and righteousness.

The part of the farmer or the coop of chickens he raises is of no consequence. A non sequitur.

But the conscience of a man no longer matters. His beliefs are to be trampled underfoot with impunity, his sense of right and wrong judged summarily because he dares to have them. Who are you to judge the conscience of a man, or of any man, woman or child? Should you somehow come across the same dilemma this couple faced, expect no mercy from me, for you shewn none upon this couple or upon anyone who does likewise.



Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, for judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 2:12-13

The baker bakes in his kitchen. The farmer farms on his farm. But they both sell in the public market place. You forgive the farmer of selling their goods to a baker that bakes cakes for gay weddings. Then you judge the baker of sinning by selling the goods "baked" and assembled at a gay wedding. You would have been ok with this baker baking the cake that went to the gay wedding if a non-gay wedding planner did the purchase and assembled the cake for the baker? What is wrong with you that you associate baking and selling cakes to gays as performing and condoning gay sex acts?

I pay my taxes does that mean I "condone" and enable Obama? Your taxes paid for the road that leads to the location where the gays got married. Does that mean you condoned and enabled sin? How can you let your income be used to enable gay sin?

 

[JOSweetHeart]

I have a hard time with this. I've not only read both books, I've read both many times.

Love the sinner not the sin. I'm testy on this. Why should any Christian deny two people who want to join in love a cake.

Come on.

Why would any good christian want to hurt these people?

I don't know about everyone else on the planet, but I never mean to hurt other people. To me, its about following the rules that the Lord has for us and only the Lord can tell us why same gender relationships are unacceptable to him.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

 

[RKMBrown]

I have a hard time with this. I've not only read both books, I've read both many times.

Love the sinner not the sin. I'm testy on this. Why should any Christian deny two people who want to join in love a cake.

Come on.

Why would any good christian want to hurt these people?

I don't know about everyone else on the planet, but I never mean to hurt other people. To me, its about following the rules that the Lord has for us and only the Lord can tell us why same gender relationships are unacceptable to him.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

The impression I got from the reading was the reason is similar to the reason we are not supposed to eat pork. People who ate pork, and participated in gay and unwed sexual relationships paid the price of not obeying said laws. Thus the laws were a way to convey a reason that was not understood scientifically at the time... it's god will.

 

[thanatos144]

Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop - Washington Times

A year ago I would have said 'good.' But actually seeing that it happened, - I don't like how this feels. They shouldn't have been treated as they have been treated, not in my estimation.

Some of those threats were shocking. One emailer wished for the couple’s children to fall ill. Another expressed hope that Mr. Klein should be shot and even raped, The Blaze reported.

And yet another wrote: “Here’s hoping you go out of business, you bigot.”
The couple said on top of that, their vendors were “badgered and harassed” into stopping all associations with the bakery.

The Kleins say they’re now closing up their doors and moving their operations to their home. Their business, they say, has suffered a serious revenue hit from the unexpected activism and backlash.

Looks like they need a Chik-Fil-A-type support system.

This is a taste is a taste what progressivism will bring. Facism

 

[JOSweetHeart]

I don't know about everyone else on the planet, but I never mean to hurt other people. To me, its about following the rules that the Lord has for us and only the Lord can tell us why same gender relationships are unacceptable to him.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

The impression I got from the reading was the reason is similar to the reason we are not supposed to eat pork. People who ate pork, and participated in gay and unwed sexual relationships paid the price of not obeying said laws. Thus the laws were a way to convey a reason that was not understood scientifically at the time... it's god will.

All that I can say is that if same gender relationships had been the Lord's intention, a male would not need a female in order to become a parent and vice versa. A woman never would have been made at all period since a man was made first.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

 

[Foxfyre]

A church makes billions of dollars. Its a business. They are in it for a money, a lot of the time. They don't pay taxes either.

Billions of dollars? What the fuck are you talking about? Churches, first of all, do not "make" money. They are charities, and function on donations. By law, they are required to spend nearly all of their income every year on church functions, being allowed to keep only a small percentage of their money on hand as a hedge against emergencies. There is no money for them to be "in it" for.

Way to shoot your mouth off about something you know jack shit about, but just "know" because you've imagined it that way. Naught but what I would expect from you.

The Catholic Church is a billion dollar business.

Which, if we go with that number, means that it invests less than $1 in each of the l.2 billion Catholics living on Earth while at the same time does exemplary charitable relief work all around the world for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. I'm not Roman Catholic and have never been, but that seems like a real bargain to me.

The point is, however, that it doesn't matter what our religious faith is or whether we have any religious faith at all. The point is that each of us have unalienable rights. And when those are recognized, we each have the liberty to live our lives as we choose, believe as we choose, embrace what we will, reject what we can't accept, and all with impunity. As soon as anybody can assume the right to tell another person what he or she MUST believe about anything or else the person will be punished or destroyed, there is no liberty.

The bakers did not deny the gay couple a wedding cake or a wedding. They did exercise their unalienable right to not participate in something they could not in good consicence condone. If all the rest of the world does not share their conscience in this matter, it is still their unalienable right to exercise their conscience.

 

[RKMBrown]

I don't know about everyone else on the planet, but I never mean to hurt other people. To me, its about following the rules that the Lord has for us and only the Lord can tell us why same gender relationships are unacceptable to him.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

The impression I got from the reading was the reason is similar to the reason we are not supposed to eat pork. People who ate pork, and participated in gay and unwed sexual relationships paid the price of not obeying said laws. Thus the laws were a way to convey a reason that was not understood scientifically at the time... it's god will.

All that I can say is that if same gender relationships had been the Lord's intention, a male would not need a female in order to become a parent and vice versa. A woman never would have been made at all period since a man was made first.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

If man was made first... who was his mom? Additionally, if that was the only plan / scheme devised by god, then why are there some beasts that do not require a male/female pair to propagate? Further, why allow for sex on the fly if god only blesses long term marriages between a man and one woman? Still further, why did god permit plural marriages in the old times but now only permits marriage between one man and one woman?

 

[RKMBrown]

They did exercise their unalienable right to not participate in something they could not in good consicence condone. If all the rest of the world does not share their conscience in this matter, it is still their unalienable right to exercise their conscience.

And this is the exact same reason that was provided to condone discrimination based on skin color.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If folks do not know that most churches make money they are a little slow.
The church I used to go to went through money like hot cakes. Built a new building at 5 million with 12 stained glass windows at 30K a piece.
Now what do they do with that money? A lot of good things.
But money is the drive of many churches. They buy a lot of expensive things they do not need.
People can spend their own money on what they want to spend it on.

That doesn't prove they made money, it just proves they spent it, kinda like the government. Lots of churches go into debt to have the latest nice things, despite the fact that the bible specifically speaks against it.

But, by all means, keep spouting your hate.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't think you know what the word condoning means.

The rest of your post is just pure irony.

Do you know what it means?

If I bake a special order cake, and write Congratulations to Kate and Mary on it, I am condoning their relationship. If they buy a generic cake from me, and write it themselves, I am not.

See the difference?

 

[Foxfyre]

They did exercise their unalienable right to not participate in something they could not in good consicence condone. If all the rest of the world does not share their conscience in this matter, it is still their unalienable right to exercise their conscience.

And this is the exact same reason that was provided to condone discrimination based on skin color.

It is our unalienable right to discriminate for ANY reason. It is NOT our unalienable right to deny rights to somebody else by imposing our convictions, prejudice, bigotry, or discrimination on another person. The bakers did not do that. They did not attempt to deny the gay couple a cake or a wedding. They held no malice nor did they do anythng to punish or force the gay couple to do anything. All they did was exercise their conscience in choosing not to participate in something they could not condone in good conscience. The bakers were not the bigots. Those who threatened and attempted to hurt or destroy the bakers were.

Bigotry that hurts people is evil.

Intelligent people understand that.

Bigots do not. And those who would attempt to hurt or punish the bakers for their convictions are far worse bigots who discriminate in far more destructive ways than those bakers ever would be likely to do. And it is evil.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The farmer toils in the fields for a living, none of his works offend anyone. He knows nothing of where the end product of his work goes. He has no choice nor does he care, for none of it violates his conscience. The hens he dutifully raises, who lay the eggs which make the batter of that cake, carry on the life which God wills upon them; they serve their purpose in this world, they have no conscience of consequence, of right or wrong, of good or bad, or of sinfulness and righteousness. The couple in this bakery know what the Bible says about homosexuality, they have a sense of right and wrong, a sense of good or bad, a sense of sinfulness and righteousness.

The part of the farmer or the coop of chickens he raises is of no consequence. A non sequitur.

But the conscience of a man no longer matters. His beliefs are to be trampled underfoot with impunity, his sense of right and wrong judged summarily because he dares to have them. Who are you to judge the conscience of a man, or of any man, woman or child? Should you somehow come across the same dilemma this couple faced, expect no mercy from me, for you shewn none upon this couple or upon anyone who does likewise.



Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, for judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 2:12-13

The baker bakes in his kitchen. The farmer farms on his farm. But they both sell in the public market place. You forgive the farmer of selling their goods to a baker that bakes cakes for gay weddings. Then you judge the baker of sinning by selling the goods "baked" and assembled at a gay wedding. You would have been ok with this baker baking the cake that went to the gay wedding if a non-gay wedding planner did the purchase and assembled the cake for the baker? What is wrong with you that you associate baking and selling cakes to gays as performing and condoning gay sex acts?

I pay my taxes does that mean I "condone" and enable Obama? Your taxes paid for the road that leads to the location where the gays got married. Does that mean you condoned and enabled sin? How can you let your income be used to enable gay sin?

Apparently, you can't read, what a surprise.

By the way, the fact that someone holds a gun to your head and forces you to do something does not mean you condone it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I have a hard time with this. I've not only read both books, I've read both many times.

Love the sinner not the sin. I'm testy on this. Why should any Christian deny two people who want to join in love a cake.

Come on.

Why would any good christian want to hurt these people?

I don't know about everyone else on the planet, but I never mean to hurt other people. To me, its about following the rules that the Lord has for us and only the Lord can tell us why same gender relationships are unacceptable to him.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

The impression I got from the reading was the reason is similar to the reason we are not supposed to eat pork. People who ate pork, and participated in gay and unwed sexual relationships paid the price of not obeying said laws. Thus the laws were a way to convey a reason that was not understood scientifically at the time... it's god will.

I have the impression that you are a pretentious asshole who thinks he knows more than anyone else.

Tell me something, genius, what scientific reason is there not to eat pork? Keep in mind that science tells us that pork is slightly healthier than beef because of the lower fat content before you start trying to prove how stupid and ignorant you are.