Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop

[Papageorgio]

Why is it okay for churches, though? Everyone knows that a church won't marry a gay couple, why the different rules?

We have religious freedom in this country and it is a basis of all our freedoms. One should not be forced to give up their sacred views to amuse another person.

I still would like you to address your comments about Indians. I find it very hypocritical of you to demand others to end their bigotry, while you seem to practice yours.

Who said anything about Indians?

In another thread about an Australian piece of scum, killing an Indian, you replied,

What is wrong with refusing to train the Indian XXXXX who is going to steal your job?

Now it seems that the moderators X'd out your defamatory word, but since you posted that a couple weeks ago, you have failed to answer any questions about this racist statement.

 

[Noomi]

I don't know what you said about it, but I stand by that statement.

 

[Papageorgio]

I don't know what you said about it, but I stand by that statement.

I said nothing you were not replying, you made a statement.

Then standing by the statement leads me to believe you are a racist.

 

[Mertex]

Why is it okay for churches, though? Everyone knows that a church won't marry a gay couple, why the different rules?

Surely you can see it for a church Noomi. Come on.

Nope. If it okay for the church (a business) to discriminate, why not other businesses, and vice versa?

Churches are non-profit organizations.

Most of the states have protected religiously affiliated nonprofits from potential government penalty for refusing to host same-sex marriage ceremonies.
Religious Exemptions On Gay Marriage Divides Church Advocacy Groups

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Although I'm a non-believer, I'm wondering why separation of Church and State does not apply in this situation?
Essentially the government is allowing persons who have different, and perhaps higher moral standards, to be discriminated against and even threatened physically.
The practical solution to the disagreement should have been for the couple to seek the services desired from another bakery in the competitive marketplace.
The Kleins, in my opinion, have legal grounds to seek and receive damages as a result of the actions taken against them in exercising their 1st Amendment right.

This ^

Then wasn't it the right of the gay couple to use their free speech and call for a boycott of the bakery?

They filed a complaint with the state, they lose all their rights to complain in any other forum once they resort to violence.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Nope. If it okay for the church (a business) to discriminate, why not other businesses, and vice versa?

A church is a religious venue, not a business.

A church makes billions of dollars. Its a business. They are in it for a money, a lot of the time. They don't pay taxes either.

Most churches don't make thousands of dollars, much less billions.

 

[TemplarKormac]

This argument is ridiculous. The bakers were not forced to attend the wedding, they were simply asked to bake a bloody cake. Other than that, they had no part in the wedding at all. They are not condoning homosexuality, or the marriage by mixing a few ingredients together.

They have lost business because of their hot heads.

And Noomi, with all due respect, you are the least of all to judge. As I explained to RKM, they can bake the cake without the the burden of committing the sin, it is the delivery, the act of will, the intention of support that creates the sin, the final end which accomplishes the means.

No they were not forced, and you are correct, but they knew what would happen if they followed through and accepted their request. And if may I point out: Everyone here from you to I, have been hotheads about this issue. Should we also not be punished with ruin? Just as you believed this couple should have been according to you?

But especially in this contest, the bigger hotheads were those who refused to allow a couple the right to act on their conscience. Yes, it is quite petty that all of these arguments took over cake, but the overall principle remains. It is quite petty to put someone out of business because they hold different beliefs or religious convictions than you. Petty would be destroying the sakes and livelihoods of people who have the courage to stand up for their faith. Sad would be when a man of faith forsakes the values he holds dear in order to avoid the wrath of an unbeliever. Sad would be when all a man has to do is sacrifice his virtues for the sake of acceptance.

The cake didn't have to be delivered, it could be picked up from the store. No sinning, nothing at all.

No one put the bakery out of business, they did that themselves.
Keep in mind that NOWHERE on their website does it say that they won't bake cakes for homosexual weddings. They say they bake cakes for ALL occasions. If they don't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, state that on the website, and in the store.

Problem solved.

But when you explore the website, it quotes John 3:16, I mean right there it implies that these people may not approve of homosexuality. Surely they (this gay couple) can read, or use what amount of deductive reasoning they have? When they specify WEDDINGS they cater to weddings, the term "gay wedding" is purely exclusive. All in the terminology. There is a reason people differentiate between traditional weddings and gay weddings. Surely that isn't too hard to understand, Noomi.

And then again, how are you going to deliver a multi tiered cake to a wedding in your car? Wouldn't you rather trust someone, namely a professional, to deliver your cake on site? But for anyone to know what is sin in the Christian faith, they need to be a part of it, but because they aren't, namely people like you and others, they cannot call others down for their "sin" or lack thereof.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The cake didn't have to be delivered, it could be picked up from the store. No sinning, nothing at all.

No one put the bakery out of business, they did that themselves.
Keep in mind that NOWHERE on their website does it say that they won't bake cakes for homosexual weddings. They say they bake cakes for ALL occasions. If they don't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, state that on the website, and in the store.

Problem solved.

No, they really can't in Oregon. Oregon has a state law that prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation, and advertising discrimination based on sexual orientation would have gotten them in trouble a lot sooner - might have saved the gay couple a trip to their defunct bakery, though.

Why is it okay for churches, though? Everyone knows that a church won't marry a gay couple, why the different rules?

Because destroying the First Amendment rights of churches is next on the list after destroying the First Amendment rights of the individual members.

Don't be in such a damned rush.

 

[TemplarKormac]

What kind of Christian would I be, if I sacrificed righteousness for the acceptance of men? If my friends cause me to stray in my walk with Christ, then I should dissociate. Because, alas, if they were truly my friends, and I theirs, they would respect my path whilst they walk their own.

 

[tinydancer]

What kind of Christian would I be, if I sacrificed righteousness for the acceptance of men? If my friends cause me to stray my walk with Christ, then I should dissociate. Because, alas, if they were truly my friends, and I theirs, they would respect my path whilst they walk their own.

Here in hurts the heart though. And keeps me from ministry because I cannot find the answer.

Gays are not only my friends but when no one else would accept me, they did. A long time ago.
I can't betray them.

 

[TemplarKormac]

What kind of Christian would I be, if I sacrificed righteousness for the acceptance of men? If my friends cause me to stray my walk with Christ, then I should dissociate. Because, alas, if they were truly my friends, and I theirs, they would respect my path whilst they walk their own.

Here in hurts the heart though. And keeps me from ministry because I cannot find the answer.

Gays are not only my friends but when no one else would accept me, they did. A long time ago.
I can't betray them.

Nono, don't betray your friends, but at least have them acknowledge that you have your beliefs and that you acknowledge they have theirs. I spend most of my time here at home with my grandmother, alone. All of my "real" friends have moved on to other walks of life. But I would much rather keep my morals than to be led astray by so called "friends" who supposedly accept me for who I am and what I believe in.

In your case, TD

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 15:13

I will not sit here and tell you to abandon your friends. I will not attempt to understand. Not my place. I say this out of respect, not out of spite.

 

[tinydancer]

Love the sinner hate the sin.

Look why do we think them bad. I cant get my head around this.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Love the sinner hate the sin.

Look why do we think them bad. I cant get my head around this.

I never once said they were bad. You have the same philosophy I do. Nothing but total agreement. I am merely speaking of an aspect of mutual respect between people of different ideals.

I don't hate homosexuals, nor will I discriminate against them. But if they ask me to condone their way of life, I will not. I am what I am. That can never be changed. My faith in God is absolute.

 

[tinydancer]

What kind of Christian would I be, if I sacrificed righteousness for the acceptance of men? If my friends cause me to stray my walk with Christ, then I should dissociate. Because, alas, if they were truly my friends, and I theirs, they would respect my path whilst they walk their own.

Here in hurts the heart though. And keeps me from ministry because I cannot find the answer.

Gays are not only my friends but when no one else would accept me, they did. A long time ago.
I can't betray them.

Nono, don't betray your friends, but at least have them acknowledge that you have your beliefs and that you acknowledge they have theirs. I spend most of my time here at home with my grandmother, alone. All of my "real" friends have moved on to other walks of life. But I would much rather keep my morals than to be led astray by so called "friends" who supposedly accept me for who I am and what I believe in.

In your case, TD

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 15:13

I will not sit here and tell you to abandon your friends. I will not attempt to understand. Not my place. I say this out of respect, not out of spite.

Can you imagine me a pastor?

Isn't that the funniest? That's what they want me to be.

 

[tinydancer]

Love the sinner hate the sin.

Look why do we think them bad. I cant get my head around this.

I never once said they were bad. You have the same philosophy I do. Nothing but total agreement. I am merely speaking of an aspect of mutual respect between people of different ideals.

I don't hate homosexuals, nor will I discriminate against them. But if they ask me to condone their way of life, I will not. I am what I am. That can never be changed. My faith in God is absolute.

Oh heavens I ididntt say your did.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Here in hurts the heart though. And keeps me from ministry because I cannot find the answer.

Gays are not only my friends but when no one else would accept me, they did. A long time ago.
I can't betray them.

Nono, don't betray your friends, but at least have them acknowledge that you have your beliefs and that you acknowledge they have theirs. I spend most of my time here at home with my grandmother, alone. All of my "real" friends have moved on to other walks of life. But I would much rather keep my morals than to be led astray by so called "friends" who supposedly accept me for who I am and what I believe in.

In your case, TD

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 15:13

I will not sit here and tell you to abandon your friends. I will not attempt to understand. Not my place. I say this out of respect, not out of spite.

Can you imagine me a pastor?

Isn't that the funniest? That's what they want me to be.

Oh, you give yourself too little credit! I suggest you seek God's guidance. Go to him in prayer. Walking the path of ministry is a heavy burden to bear, but a mighty tool to win souls to Christ! Ministry is a gift, not all men and women are blessed with it. But if you feel the calling, ask God to help you find it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Love the sinner hate the sin.

Look why do we think them bad. I cant get my head around this.

I never once said they were bad. You have the same philosophy I do. Nothing but total agreement. I am merely speaking of an aspect of mutual respect between people of different ideals.

I don't hate homosexuals, nor will I discriminate against them. But if they ask me to condone their way of life, I will not. I am what I am. That can never be changed. My faith in God is absolute.

Oh heavens I ididntt say your did.

Yes of course. Nothing but a broad generalization. An overall summation of what I believe.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why is it okay for churches, though? Everyone knows that a church won't marry a gay couple, why the different rules?

A church is not a public business. Churches can refuse to marry heterosexual couples that have been divorced, too.

I don't get this couple at all that have denied the couple the right to a pretty wedding cake.

That's all this is about.

Tiny, seriously, what have you been smoking, and which liberal did you get it from?

First, there is no "right to a pretty cake". Can we please stop inventing "rights" to every damned thing under the sun just because someone wants it?

Second of all, they didn't "deny them a pretty cake". They just denied them one of THEIR cakes. You telling me there are no other bakers in that town? Puh-leeze.

Let's try to resist the urge to think with our smooshy girly emotions and stick to thinking with our brains, shall we? You don't have a right - at least, not morally - to force someone to associate with you or do things for you, no matter how much you don't want it. And it really doesn't matter if you say, "Well, you're a big meanyhead for not wanting to give me a cake, and it's wrong to be a meanyhead, so it should be ILLEGAL!" This is not kindergarten. Whether you think it's "nice" to do something or not in no way affects whether or not someone has the right to do it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Although I'm a non-believer, I'm wondering why separation of Church and State does not apply in this situation?
Essentially the government is allowing persons who have different, and perhaps higher moral standards, to be discriminated against and even threatened physically.
The practical solution to the disagreement should have been for the couple to seek the services desired from another bakery in the competitive marketplace.
The Kleins, in my opinion, have legal grounds to seek and receive damages as a result of the actions taken against them in exercising their 1st Amendment right.

This ^

In other words, we might as well not have a Civil Rights Act, if public businesses are allowed to discriminate. Gays, and minorities have to just find some other business to serve them? I don't think so. If the couple has such warped beliefs that baking a cake for a homosexual couple is a sin, then they don't need to be in the cake baking business or any other business for that matter, because they are just using their faith as a cover for their bigotry. They are selling their goods to "sinners" all day long, so what difference is in selling to a gay from selling to a wife beater, an adulterer, or pedophile, or just a plain everyday sinner like all of us?

Because the Civil Rights Act - and by the way, WHICH Civil Rights Act, exactly, did you have in mind? - was all about forced association for private entities? I don't think so.

And "you don't think" that gays and minorities should have to find people to associate with who actually want to do so? Why the hell not? The entire rest of the adult world has to learn to put up with disappointment. Why should gays and minorities be cushioned by the government from the fact that life sometimes sucks?

If you have such warped beliefs that it's up to YOU to decide what is and isn't a sin for someone else, then you shouldn't be having any input into the laws. This may come as a shock to you, but the rest of the world does not recognize you as a moral arbiter, and is not interested in living life according to your dictates.

The difference is that it's THEIR difference to decide. Why is it so fucking hard for you to get over yourself and realize that you are NOT allowed to say, "Well, your beliefs are WRONG, and mine are morally superior, so yours are invalid and you should do things MY way"? What exactly is it with you that makes you feel so threatened by the idea of freedom for other people to be different from you? You're all KINDS of enthusiastic about making OTHER people accept differences THEY don't like. Double standard much?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have a hard time with this. I've not only read both books, I've read both many times.

Love the sinner not the sin. I'm testy on this. Why should any Christian deny two people who want to join in love a cake.

Come on.

Why would any good christian want to hurt these people?

Because they are bigots, and haven't read their Bibles properly.

Some would say that in baking the cake, they are condoning the 'sin'.

Then that would make them really stupid Christians.

And really seriously fucked up.

And one's First Amendment rights are based on YOUR PERSONAL judgement that the exercise thereof isn't "stupid and fucked up"? Would it shock you to know that YOU do things that OTHER people find stupid and fucked up? How'd you like to have your rights taken away based on someone else's judgement of how you should think and believe?