Chinese Jews????

[PoliticalChic]

I have a pal who teaches in high school, and a while back he told me of a Chinese student with the name 'Shapiro Lee.' He had inquired of the boy's father as to how he picked that interesting name for his son.
The father explained that Jewish folk were good at business...and he thought it would help his son in that endeavor.
But, no....the family was not of the Jewish religion.


But...Jewish Chinese?
Chinese folks who practice Judaism????


1. In the novel "The Journeyer," a tale of the travels of Marco Polo, Gary Jennings describes a meeting between Polo and Kublai Khan's Royal Firemaster, in charge of fireworks. The minister turns out to be a Jew...


Did Jennings simply imagine Chinese folks who were Jewish....or were there actually same?

The NYTimes included this in Jennings' obituary:
"Mr. Jennings took pride in the accuracy of his historical research on everything from Marco Polo's journeys for his novel ''The Journeyer'' (1984), to 19th-century circus life in the novel ''Spangle'' (1987), for which he traveled with nine different circuses. In ''Raptor'' (1992), he described a Goth's adventures during the days of the Roman Empire." Gary Jennings Is Dead at 70; Author of the Best Seller 'Aztec'




Let's pick up with this exchange from the novel:

"Aha!" I crowed. "Now I suppose you are going to tell me that your name is not really Mordecai!"

"I was not going to tell you anything. Except about my work with the beautiful but dangerous fires. What would you wish to know, Marco Polo?"

"How did you get a name like Shi Ix-me?"

"That has nothing to do with my work. However …" He shrugged. "When the Jews first came here [to China], they were allotted seven Han surnames to apportion among them. Shi is one of the seven, and was originally Yitzhak. In the Ivrit [the Hebrew language], my full name is Shemuel ibn-Yitzhak."

I asked, "When did you come to Kithai?" expecting him to say that he had arrived only shortly before me.

"I was born here, in the city of Kai-feng, where my forebears settled some hundreds of years ago."

"I do not believe it."

He snorted, as Mordecai had done so often at my comments. "Read the Old Testament of your Bible. Chapter forty-nine of Isaiah, where the prophet foresees a regathering of all the Jews. ‘Behold, these shall come from afar, and behold these from the north, and from the sea, and these from the land of Sinim.' This land of Kithai is still in Ivrit called Sina. So there were Jews here in Isaiah's time, and that was more than one thousand eight hundred years ago."

"Why would Jews have come here?"

"Probably because they were unwelcome somewhere else," he said wryly. "Or perhaps they took the Han to be one of their own lost tribes, wandered away from Israel."

"Oh, come now, Master Shi. The Han are pork eaters, and always have been."




I had never heard that there were Chinese Jews....but Jennings "took pride in the accuracy of his historical research on everything..."

I'll check it out in this thread, see if Jennings is accurate or not.

 

[Mac1958]

30 minutes later, you want to find another sale!

Bada BING!
.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Kaifeng Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China Virtual Jewish History Tour | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Giving your kids every advantage possible in a massively overpopulated and thus massive-competetive country like China makes sense. Not that different from genetic engineering and customized traits, dyeing your hair to be of max appeal, women wearing makeup, etc.

Kind of an eyebrow raiser for non-Jews to take Jewy-names for business purposes, but whatever. Imitation is the highest form of flattery as they say.

 

[irosie91]

I have a pal who teaches in high school, and a while back he told me of a Chinese student with the name 'Shapiro Lee.' He had inquired of the boy's father as to how he picked that interesting name for his son.
The father explained that Jewish folk were good at business...and he thought it would help his son in that endeavor.
But, no....the family was not of the Jewish religion.


But...Jewish Chinese?
Chinese folks who practice Judaism????


1. In the novel "The Journeyer," a tale of the travels of Marco Polo, Gary Jennings describes a meeting between Polo and Kublai Khan's Royal Firemaster, in charge of fireworks. The minister turns out to be a Jew...


Did Jennings simply imagine Chinese folks who were Jewish....or were there actually same?

The NYTimes included this in Jennings' obituary:
"Mr. Jennings took pride in the accuracy of his historical research on everything from Marco Polo's journeys for his novel ''The Journeyer'' (1984), to 19th-century circus life in the novel ''Spangle'' (1987), for which he traveled with nine different circuses. In ''Raptor'' (1992), he described a Goth's adventures during the days of the Roman Empire." Gary Jennings Is Dead at 70; Author of the Best Seller 'Aztec'




Let's pick up with this exchange from the novel:

"Aha!" I crowed. "Now I suppose you are going to tell me that your name is not really Mordecai!"

"I was not going to tell you anything. Except about my work with the beautiful but dangerous fires. What would you wish to know, Marco Polo?"

"How did you get a name like Shi Ix-me?"

"That has nothing to do with my work. However …" He shrugged. "When the Jews first came here [to China], they were allotted seven Han surnames to apportion among them. Shi is one of the seven, and was originally Yitzhak. In the Ivrit [the Hebrew language], my full name is Shemuel ibn-Yitzhak."

I asked, "When did you come to Kithai?" expecting him to say that he had arrived only shortly before me.

"I was born here, in the city of Kai-feng, where my forebears settled some hundreds of years ago."

"I do not believe it."

He snorted, as Mordecai had done so often at my comments. "Read the Old Testament of your Bible. Chapter forty-nine of Isaiah, where the prophet foresees a regathering of all the Jews. ‘Behold, these shall come from afar, and behold these from the north, and from the sea, and these from the land of Sinim.' This land of Kithai is still in Ivrit called Sina. So there were Jews here in Isaiah's time, and that was more than one thousand eight hundred years ago."

"Why would Jews have come here?"

"Probably because they were unwelcome somewhere else," he said wryly. "Or perhaps they took the Han to be one of their own lost tribes, wandered away from Israel."

"Oh, come now, Master Shi. The Han are pork eaters, and always have been."




I had never heard that there were Chinese Jews....but Jennings "took pride in the accuracy of his historical research on everything..."

I'll check it out in this thread, see if Jennings is accurate or not.

Pearl S Buck wrote a novel featuring jews in china. The only jew I know who
is Chinese is a convert-------she is VERY ADHERENT ------If I remember correctly---
Pearl S Buck was the daughter of Christian missionaries------ (remember her?----
THE GOOD EARTH----I do not recall the name of the novel about jews)

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Jews have settled in various places in EurAsia during the last two thousand years. I don't know if they did that in Africa, but I would not be surprised.

 

[Swagger]

Do they drive around in secondhand Volvo estates like their European counterparts?

 

[irosie91]

The Jews have settled in various places in EurAsia during the last two thousand years. I don't know if they did that in Africa, but I would not be surprised.

yes they did-------I ran into a VERY AFRICAN person at a community seder----
I think it was ------like two Passovers ago. Quite an interesting guy----he wrote
his own copy of the Hagaddah like people used to do in the old days. He looked
absolutely NIGERIAN -----in my limited experience Nigerian men tend to
have large round faces-----but if I remember correctly he told me that he was
from TANZANIA (???) ----he certainly knew his stuff. I do not recall his name

 

[HaShev]

Yes also some Japanese claims to Jewish heritage including inscriptions on royal objects that might validate. They claim they are from the lost tribe of Dan that traveled far east. I had a whole web site on this once.

 

[irosie91]

Yes also some Japanese claims to Jewish heritage including inscriptions on royal objects that might validate. They claim they are from the lost tribe of Dan that traveled far east. I had a whole web site on this once.

yeah------for some reason some people call them DANITES--- (????)

 

[PoliticalChic]

I have a pal who teaches in high school, and a while back he told me of a Chinese student with the name 'Shapiro Lee.' He had inquired of the boy's father as to how he picked that interesting name for his son.
The father explained that Jewish folk were good at business...and he thought it would help his son in that endeavor.
But, no....the family was not of the Jewish religion.


But...Jewish Chinese?
Chinese folks who practice Judaism????


1. In the novel "The Journeyer," a tale of the travels of Marco Polo, Gary Jennings describes a meeting between Polo and Kublai Khan's Royal Firemaster, in charge of fireworks. The minister turns out to be a Jew...


Did Jennings simply imagine Chinese folks who were Jewish....or were there actually same?

The NYTimes included this in Jennings' obituary:
"Mr. Jennings took pride in the accuracy of his historical research on everything from Marco Polo's journeys for his novel ''The Journeyer'' (1984), to 19th-century circus life in the novel ''Spangle'' (1987), for which he traveled with nine different circuses. In ''Raptor'' (1992), he described a Goth's adventures during the days of the Roman Empire." Gary Jennings Is Dead at 70; Author of the Best Seller 'Aztec'




Let's pick up with this exchange from the novel:

"Aha!" I crowed. "Now I suppose you are going to tell me that your name is not really Mordecai!"

"I was not going to tell you anything. Except about my work with the beautiful but dangerous fires. What would you wish to know, Marco Polo?"

"How did you get a name like Shi Ix-me?"

"That has nothing to do with my work. However …" He shrugged. "When the Jews first came here [to China], they were allotted seven Han surnames to apportion among them. Shi is one of the seven, and was originally Yitzhak. In the Ivrit [the Hebrew language], my full name is Shemuel ibn-Yitzhak."

I asked, "When did you come to Kithai?" expecting him to say that he had arrived only shortly before me.

"I was born here, in the city of Kai-feng, where my forebears settled some hundreds of years ago."

"I do not believe it."

He snorted, as Mordecai had done so often at my comments. "Read the Old Testament of your Bible. Chapter forty-nine of Isaiah, where the prophet foresees a regathering of all the Jews. ‘Behold, these shall come from afar, and behold these from the north, and from the sea, and these from the land of Sinim.' This land of Kithai is still in Ivrit called Sina. So there were Jews here in Isaiah's time, and that was more than one thousand eight hundred years ago."

"Why would Jews have come here?"

"Probably because they were unwelcome somewhere else," he said wryly. "Or perhaps they took the Han to be one of their own lost tribes, wandered away from Israel."

"Oh, come now, Master Shi. The Han are pork eaters, and always have been."




I had never heard that there were Chinese Jews....but Jennings "took pride in the accuracy of his historical research on everything..."

I'll check it out in this thread, see if Jennings is accurate or not.

Pearl S Buck wrote a novel featuring jews in china. The only jew I know who
is Chinese is a convert-------she is VERY ADHERENT ------If I remember correctly---
Pearl S Buck was the daughter of Christian missionaries------ (remember her?----
THE GOOD EARTH----I do not recall the name of the novel about jews)

Thanks so much.

I plan to include that in the thread.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Jennings' novel continues:

".... The Han are pork eaters, and always have been."

He shrugged again. "Nevertheless, they have things in common with the Jews. They slaughter their animals in a ceremonial manner almost kasher, except that they do not remove the terephah [any kosher species of mammal or bird which died by anymeansother than kosher slaughter] sinews. And they are even more than Jewishly strict in the customs of dress, never wearing garments mixed of animal and vegetable fibers."

Stubbornly I maintained, "The Han could never have been a lost tribe. There is no least physical resemblance between them and the Jews."

Master Shi laughed and said, "But there is now-between the Jews and the Han. Do not judge by my looks. It only happens that the Shi family never much intermarried here. Most others of the seven names did. So Kithai is full of Jews with ivory skins and squinty eyes. Only sometimes by their noses shall you know them. Or a man by his gid." He laughed again, then said more seriously, "Or you may know a Jew because, wherever he wanders, he still observes the religion of his fathers. He still turns toward Jerusalem to pray. Also, wherever he wanders, he still keeps the memory of old Jewish legends-"

"Like the Lamed-vav," I interrupted. "And the tzaddikim."

"-and, wherever he wanders, he continues to share with other Jews what things he remembers of the old, and what worthwhile new things he learns along his way." Jennings, "The Journeyer," p. 462-463


Chinese Jews???

Hmmm.....Pearl Buck mentions same..."Peony is set in the 1850s in the city of K'aifeng, in the province of Honan, which was historically a center for Chinese Jews.
The novel follows Peony, a Chinese bondmaid of the prominent Jewish family of Ezra ben Israel, and shows through her eyes how the Jewish community was regarded in K'aifeng at a time when most of the Jews had come to think of themselves as Chinese."
Peony (novel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



This requires some research....coming right up.

 

[Daniyel]

I have a pal who teaches in high school, and a while back he told me of a Chinese student with the name 'Shapiro Lee.' He had inquired of the boy's father as to how he picked that interesting name for his son.
The father explained that Jewish folk were good at business...and he thought it would help his son in that endeavor.
But, no....the family was not of the Jewish religion.


But...Jewish Chinese?
Chinese folks who practice Judaism????


1. In the novel "The Journeyer," a tale of the travels of Marco Polo, Gary Jennings describes a meeting between Polo and Kublai Khan's Royal Firemaster, in charge of fireworks. The minister turns out to be a Jew...


Did Jennings simply imagine Chinese folks who were Jewish....or were there actually same?

The NYTimes included this in Jennings' obituary:
"Mr. Jennings took pride in the accuracy of his historical research on everything from Marco Polo's journeys for his novel ''The Journeyer'' (1984), to 19th-century circus life in the novel ''Spangle'' (1987), for which he traveled with nine different circuses. In ''Raptor'' (1992), he described a Goth's adventures during the days of the Roman Empire." Gary Jennings Is Dead at 70; Author of the Best Seller 'Aztec'




Let's pick up with this exchange from the novel:

"Aha!" I crowed. "Now I suppose you are going to tell me that your name is not really Mordecai!"

"I was not going to tell you anything. Except about my work with the beautiful but dangerous fires. What would you wish to know, Marco Polo?"

"How did you get a name like Shi Ix-me?"

"That has nothing to do with my work. However …" He shrugged. "When the Jews first came here [to China], they were allotted seven Han surnames to apportion among them. Shi is one of the seven, and was originally Yitzhak. In the Ivrit [the Hebrew language], my full name is Shemuel ibn-Yitzhak."

I asked, "When did you come to Kithai?" expecting him to say that he had arrived only shortly before me.

"I was born here, in the city of Kai-feng, where my forebears settled some hundreds of years ago."

"I do not believe it."

He snorted, as Mordecai had done so often at my comments. "Read the Old Testament of your Bible. Chapter forty-nine of Isaiah, where the prophet foresees a regathering of all the Jews. ‘Behold, these shall come from afar, and behold these from the north, and from the sea, and these from the land of Sinim.' This land of Kithai is still in Ivrit called Sina. So there were Jews here in Isaiah's time, and that was more than one thousand eight hundred years ago."

"Why would Jews have come here?"

"Probably because they were unwelcome somewhere else," he said wryly. "Or perhaps they took the Han to be one of their own lost tribes, wandered away from Israel."

"Oh, come now, Master Shi. The Han are pork eaters, and always have been."




I had never heard that there were Chinese Jews....but Jennings "took pride in the accuracy of his historical research on everything..."

I'll check it out in this thread, see if Jennings is accurate or not.

History of the Jews in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mir yeshiva (Belarus) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also note that Druze are originated from China and I believe to be somewhat related.
Druze - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PoliticalChic]

Is there any mention of Chinese Jews in the Old Testament?


Yup.



2. In Isiah 49:12....a verse referred to as 'the Restoration of Israel"
11"I will make all My mountains a road, And My highways will be raised up.
12"Behold, these will come from afar; And lo, these will come from the north and from the west, And these from the land of Sinim."



3. Other verses related....

Matthew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 43:5
Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.

Isaiah 43:6
I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth--

Isaiah 45:22
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 55:5
Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations you do not know will come running to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."

Isaiah 59:19
From the west, people will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory. For he will come like a pent-up flood that the breath of the LORD drives along.

Isaiah 60:4
"Lift up your eyes and look about you: All assemble and come to you; your sons come from afar, and your daughters are carried on the hip.





"...., and nations you do not know...


Well....I don't know Sinim. Maybe it is China....

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Is there any mention of Chinese Jews in the Old Testament?


Yup.



2. In Isiah 49:12....a verse referred to as 'the Restoration of Israel"
11"I will make all My mountains a road, And My highways will be raised up.
12"Behold, these will come from afar; And lo, these will come from the north and from the west, And these from the land of Sinim."



3. Other verses related....

Matthew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 43:5
Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.

Isaiah 43:6
I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth--

Isaiah 45:22
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 55:5
Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations you do not know will come running to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."

Isaiah 59:19
From the west, people will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory. For he will come like a pent-up flood that the breath of the LORD drives along.

Isaiah 60:4
"Lift up your eyes and look about you: All assemble and come to you; your sons come from afar, and your daughters are carried on the hip.





"...., and nations you do not know...


Well....I don't know Sinim. Maybe it is China....

If referring to China, would think an Israeli region author would say northeast or north and east.

 

[Daniyel]

Is there any mention of Chinese Jews in the Old Testament?


Yup.



2. In Isiah 49:12....a verse referred to as 'the Restoration of Israel"
11"I will make all My mountains a road, And My highways will be raised up.
12"Behold, these will come from afar; And lo, these will come from the north and from the west, And these from the land of Sinim."



3. Other verses related....

Matthew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 43:5
Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.

Isaiah 43:6
I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth--

Isaiah 45:22
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 55:5
Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations you do not know will come running to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."

Isaiah 59:19
From the west, people will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory. For he will come like a pent-up flood that the breath of the LORD drives along.

Isaiah 60:4
"Lift up your eyes and look about you: All assemble and come to you; your sons come from afar, and your daughters are carried on the hip.





"...., and nations you do not know...


Well....I don't know Sinim. Maybe it is China....

Some of the translations mention Aswan while the others Sinim (a Hebrew plural for Chinese folk) which is probably the source of confusion, there is also the claim it comes from "Sinai" as for Korach descendants.
It is definetly a noun.
Sinim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Side conclusion: The land of Sinim is the land of the Chinese.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Isn't naming your non-Jewish Chinese kid some Jewish name like metrojewish? Like metrosexuals who adopt aspects of gay culture, metrojews like and appreciate the Jewish lifestyle.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Is there any mention of Chinese Jews in the Old Testament?


Yup.



2. In Isiah 49:12....a verse referred to as 'the Restoration of Israel"
11"I will make all My mountains a road, And My highways will be raised up.
12"Behold, these will come from afar; And lo, these will come from the north and from the west, And these from the land of Sinim."



3. Other verses related....

Matthew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 43:5
Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.

Isaiah 43:6
I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth--

Isaiah 45:22
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 55:5
Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations you do not know will come running to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."

Isaiah 59:19
From the west, people will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory. For he will come like a pent-up flood that the breath of the LORD drives along.

Isaiah 60:4
"Lift up your eyes and look about you: All assemble and come to you; your sons come from afar, and your daughters are carried on the hip.





"...., and nations you do not know...


Well....I don't know Sinim. Maybe it is China....

Some of the translations mention Aswan while the others Sinim (a Hebrew plural for Chinese folk) which is probably the source of confusion, there is also the claim it comes from "Sinai" as for Korach descendants.
It is definetly a noun.
Sinim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Side conclusion: The land of Sinim is the land of the Chinese.

3. So.....is the Isaiah reference "Sinim" what we call China today???


Smith's Bible Dictionary

Sinim a people noticed in (Isaiah 49:12) as living at the extremity of the known world. They may be identified with the classicalSinoe, the inhabitants of the southern part of China.


ATS Bible Dictionary

Sinim Isaiah 49:12, a people very remote from the Holy Land, towards the east or south; generally believed to mean the Chinese, who have been known to Western Asia from early times, and are called by the Arabs Sin, and by the Syrians Tsini.




International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

SINIM, LAND OF si'-nim, sin'-im ('erets cinim; ge Person): The name occurs in Isaiah's prophecy of the return of the people from distant lands:

"Lo, these shall come from far; and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim" (Isaiah 49:12). The land is clearly far off, and it must be sought either in the South or in the East. Septuagint points to an eastern country.


Many scholars have favored identification with China, the classical Sinae. It seems improbable that Jews had already found their way to China; but from very early times trade relations were established with the Far East by way of Arabia and the Persian Gulf;...."

 

[shimon]

If you are really interested in studying this then google the similarities between chinese new year and the jewish passover.. ..The chinese calendar being lunar and the age of the chinese calendar being similar to the time of the exodus from Egypt...Course the red marking on the doors from the smearing of blood on the doors in Egypt is quite telling as are all the similarities in exodus....One should realize the deep connections between the israelitesand the chinese and consider the origins of the middle"kingdom"

 

[PoliticalChic]

If you are really interested in studying this then google the similarities between chinese new year and the jewish passover.. ..The chinese calendar being lunar and the age of the chinese calendar being similar to the time of the exodus from Egypt...Course the red marking on the doors from the smearing of blood on the doors in Egypt is quite telling as are all the similarities in exodus....One should realize the deep connections between the israelitesand the chinese and consider the origins of the middle"kingdom"

"....The chinese calendar being lunar and the age of the chinese calendar being similar to the time of the exodus from Egypt..."

But far from the same meaning, which is more significant than the astronomy.