Zone1 Catholic Answer to Eternal Life Without Baptism. Is it correct?

[Cougarbear]

I found this on line from a Catholic using references from the Catholic Church:

The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. (CCC 1257)

The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. (CCC 1258)

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. (CCC 1259)

My question is, Jesus said Eternal Life in the Kingdom of God can only be made through baptism by both WATER and THE SPIRIT. Peter said that the Spirits who needed preaching and teaching would receive it in 1Peter chapters 3 and 4. And, Paul said that because of this, the churches, specifically in Corinth, were baptizing for the dead. Paul did not condemn this practice. In fact, he answered the question about life, resurrection and Eternal Life in the Kingdom of God by baptizing for the dead. Thus, those who accepted the Gospel by those who were preached to in the Spirit World, would receive the vicarious baptisms. So, I have to reject the above explanation by the Catholic CCC.

 

[1srelluc]

God made all the waters right?

So it would seem to me that if you were wade fishing in the river and slipped on a slick rock you would be GTG.....Of course I'm sure your arm/hand holding the fishing pole would be out of the water.

 

[Cougarbear]

God made all the waters right?

So it would seem to me that if you were wade fishing in the river and slipped on a slick rock you would be GTG.....Of course I'm sure your arm/hand holding the fishing pole would be out of the water.

What’s this have to do with the theme of this thread?

 

[Meriweather]

Baptism, in fact all seven Sacraments, are the visible signs of the invisible reality.

LDS baptism of the dead is not a sign of invisible reality. In fact the present claim is that baptism of the dead is disposable if the the soul that has passed on rejects it. Therefore, LDS baptism is no sign of an invisible reality.

 

[luiza]

Lovely to read Cultists dribbling about their Cult rules and regulations which are apparently still unclear after nearly 2000 years .

Just admit you have a Cult which uses Baptism as a magic symbol for believers and Wannabes .
End Of .
Intelligent people will tolerate eccentrics .

Perhaps add a clause for those living full time in the desert without a spare drop .
Then get in your Magic Stream , clean and clear up your minds and play your game without constantly pestering others

 

[Meriweather]

Just admit you have a Cult which uses Baptism as a magic symbol for believers and Wannabes .
End Of .
Intelligent people will tolerate eccentrics .

But they will not tolerate people of faith?

Baptism goes back to the story in Genesis of disobedience over obedience to God. Water symbolizes the cleansing the way of disobedience and choosing the way of obedience. In Catholicism it is considered a Sacrament of initiation into the Body of Christ and in following the Way he taught. I choose to be part of the story of Genesis and all that entails.

Personally, I am beyond caring whether people tolerate me or not. I've got to be me--everyone else is taken--even the eccentrics.

 

[Moonglow]

I found this on line from a Catholic using references from the Catholic Church:




My question is, Jesus said Eternal Life in the Kingdom of God can only be made through baptism by both WATER and THE SPIRIT. Peter said that the Spirits who needed preaching and teaching would receive it in 1Peter chapters 3 and 4. And, Paul said that because of this, the churches, specifically in Corinth, were baptizing for the dead. Paul did not condemn this practice. In fact, he answered the question about life, resurrection and Eternal Life in the Kingdom of God by baptizing for the dead. Thus, those who accepted the Gospel by those who were preached to in the Spirit World, would receive the vicarious baptisms. So, I have to reject the above explanation by the Catholic CCC.

Because Jesus was baptized they think everyone should be, voluntarily or involuntarily.

 

[Cougarbear]

Because Jesus was baptized they think everyone should be, voluntarily or involuntarily.

Try to understand that those in spirit prison don’t have to accept the preaching in spirit prison. Nor are they in their bodies when their baptism by a live person is done vicariously. They don’t have to accept that either. So, your “involuntary” comment is mute.

 

[Moonglow]

Try to understand that those in spirit prison don’t have to accept the preaching in spirit prison. Nor are they in their bodies when their baptism by a live person is done vicariously. They don’t have to accept that either. So, your “involuntary” comment is mute.

It all goes back to the debate of when Christ was on the cross and told the two other dudes they'd be in paradise with him even though they were not baptized yet live as the baptized do in paradise. This is telling you that being baptized is unnecessary to live in Heaven.

 

[Cougarbear]

It all goes back to the debate of when Christ was on the cross and told the two other dudes they'd be in paradise with him even though they were not baptized yet live as the baptized do in paradise. This is telling you that being baptized is unnecessary to live in Heaven.

Yet, 1Peter and 1Corinthians were written well after the crucifixion. So, you are wrong with your interpretation. Peter and Paul would never had written those verses if your interpretation was correct.
There are two places in “Spirit Prison.” They could be named Paradise or Hell. Exact names unimportant. Hell are for the unrepentant who still can receive preaching and teaching. Paradise are for those repentant and forgiven spirits. All Jesus was saying is he forgave the one thief. Nothing about preaching to or baptizing for eternal life in the Celestial Glory in heaven.

 

[ding]

I found this on line from a Catholic using references from the Catholic Church:




My question is, Jesus said Eternal Life in the Kingdom of God can only be made through baptism by both WATER and THE SPIRIT. Peter said that the Spirits who needed preaching and teaching would receive it in 1Peter chapters 3 and 4. And, Paul said that because of this, the churches, specifically in Corinth, were baptizing for the dead. Paul did not condemn this practice. In fact, he answered the question about life, resurrection and Eternal Life in the Kingdom of God by baptizing for the dead. Thus, those who accepted the Gospel by those who were preached to in the Spirit World, would receive the vicarious baptisms. So, I have to reject the above explanation by the Catholic CCC.

You should worry about your religion and let others worry about their own.

 

[Cougarbear]

You should worry about your religion and let others worry about their own.

Another statement proving the Catholic Church is not a missionary church. And, that is a requirement. You claim the RCC compiled the Bible. Yet, it’s obvious they don’t follow the New Testament. You say that a person must be baptized before death. Yet, Jesus says the the ONLY way to the Kingdom of God is through both Baptisms of immersion in water and of the spirit (received the Holy Ghost). Yet, you reject 1Peter chapters 3 and 4 and 1st Corinthians 15:29 so that the dead who did not have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ can be judged with the living who did.

 

[Limits Obelisque]

.
some would differ as we see in the Roman Catholicism and for also the Church of England and even Lutherans who teach that a baby needs to be Baptized to free the baby from Original Sin.

Roman Catholicism teaches that Infants need to be baptized to be FREE - freed from Original Sin.

but what is Original Sin - ? ?

Rom 5:12 by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

:14 Nevertheless "DEATH " reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,

even today there are many millions of people who teach in infant baptism such as Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Church of the Nazarene, Reformed Church in America, Episcopalians, United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Continental Reformed.

not all of these organizations agree upon the exact reasoning as to why the baby needs baptism but infant baptism began originally in the Roman Church as a popular, mainstream, long lasting tradition.

Scripturas clearly teach that - no man or woman can ever be FREE from Original Sin,

nor can anyone avoid the consequences of Original Sin.
Rom 5:12 and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,

the entire premise of Catholic Faith for Original Sin is completely contrary to all of scripture.

Please understand that - no man can be free from, nor avoid,, the consequence of Original Sin

 

[ding]

Another statement proving the Catholic Church is not a missionary church. And, that is a requirement. You claim the RCC compiled the Bible. Yet, it’s obvious they don’t follow the New Testament. You say that a person must be baptized before death. Yet, Jesus says the the ONLY way to the Kingdom of God is through both Baptisms of immersion in water and of the spirit (received the Holy Ghost). Yet, you reject 1Peter chapters 3 and 4 and 1st Corinthians 15:29 so that the dead who did not have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ can be judged with the living who did.

Don't really care what your opinion is of my church. You should worry about your church.

 

[MarathonMike]

My parents were very religious Methodists and I was baptized when I was about 10 years old. I am not religious in the formal sense, but does my baptism qualify me for Heaven?

 

[Meriweather]

My parents were very religious Methodists and I was baptized when I was about 10 years old. I am not religious in the formal sense, but does my baptism qualify me for Heaven?

While formal religious practices can be a blessing, I do not believe not having them disqualifies you. How do you live out your baptism? In Catholicism, it is a statement to eschew disobedience to God and embrace obedience.

 

[MarathonMike]

While formal religious practices can be a blessing, I do not believe not having them disqualifies you. How do you live out your baptism? In Catholicism, it is a statement to eschew disobedience to God and embrace obedience.

I'm not sure what 'living out my baptism' means. As I've said I am a Deist and do not identify with any particular religion.