Building the Border Fence - A Public/Private Partnership

[FA_Q2]

Why do you want to give American jobs away to Mexicans? 95% of the jobs illegals take are not in agriculture. A lot of them are in construction, mining, truck driving - jobs Americans are willing to do, that is. Mexicans should only be given work permit for jobs in Agriculture, picking fruit and vegetables.

I am not really sure that most americans are willing to take the jobs that most Mexicans do ( I am half guessing here, but it would be really interesting to see a statistic on this area) .
My line of thought is that if they were legal, they would have to earn the minimum wage at least ( probably more). What would be de incentive to hire them instead of hiring an American then? Comunicating with mexicans could prove harder during the first months, for example.

If the US continues getting illegals, then adjust the tariffs in the NAFTA.
Just make labour an integral part of NAFTA.

A fence needs a lot of man power and its a really long hot and dry border. Human capital on both sides of the border can be used in much more productive ways.

This would be the pertinent link.

Mexican Guest Workers Take Jobs Few Americans Want

If you have any link which talks about the opposite ( that Mexicans take away jobs which Americans are willing to do ) I would certainly appreciate it, and would probably make me change my current point of view on this matter.

The fact that they would maintain at least the minimum wage is irrelevant. Labor is a commodity, no matter how badly some want to deny that reality. As a commodity, the more of it there is, the lower the price without corresponding increases in demand. By importing labor you inherently suppress wages. That is very simple and basic supply and demand.

Further, there is no job in existence that Americans are not willing to do. what is really meant by this is that there are jobs Americans are not willing to do for peanuts. Oh well, I guess those strawberries are going to get more expensive. Tough.

We need to import labor as we need to attract intelligent and able people to keep us ahead of competing nations in terms of productivity and innovation. Cheap labor does nothing whatsoever in that goal.

 

[CultureCitizen]

Further, there is no job in existence that Americans are not willing to do. what is really meant by this is that there are jobs Americans are not willing to do for peanuts. Oh well, I guess those strawberries are going to get more expensive. Tough.

We need to import labor as we need to attract intelligent and able people to keep us ahead of competing nations in terms of productivity and innovation. Cheap labor does nothing whatsoever in that goal.

And here is the crux of the matter.
Cheap jobs either go to South Americans or get offshored to india china or other country in development ( again these are the consequences of a globalized world. No judgement, just stating the facts. ).
Americans must get more and better education in order to fill the posts which increase productivity and innovation.
Education has to get cheaper and better. Fighting over the "peanuts" avails to little or nothing.

 

[bripat9643]

Not if the method in the OP is used. Even if it isn't used, the fence is cheaper than the manpower required without it.

The answer is removing the reason that illegals come to the US; money.

New law: Any employer that hires an illegal is subject to a one-million dollar fine and mandatory ten years in federal prison for each illegal. The left won't like it due to 'human rights.' The right won't like it because they're hypocrites.

I've already posted my idea for a wall on this forum. I will build it, but it will cost $20 trillion per year to run. I'll even give a $1M per person that gets through fine.

That's just an expression of your hatred of corporations. The laws on the books would be perfectly adequate if they were enforced. the harshest laws in the world won't do a thing if they aren't enforced. Currently, I believe, an employer can be fined $5000 for every illegal alien found working on the premises. If these fines were ever imposed, hiring of illegals would end tomorrow.

It's amusing to see you talking about what the left won't like since you are part of the left.

 

[JoeB131]

That's just an expression of your hatred of corporations. The laws on the books would be perfectly adequate if they were enforced. the harshest laws in the world won't do a thing if they aren't enforced. Currently, I believe, an employer can be fined $5000 for every illegal alien found working on the premises. If these fines were ever imposed, hiring of illegals would end tomorrow.

But that's the problem. That's nothing. They are probably saving that much money employing the illegal to start with.

 

[bripat9643]

That's just an expression of your hatred of corporations. The laws on the books would be perfectly adequate if they were enforced. the harshest laws in the world won't do a thing if they aren't enforced. Currently, I believe, an employer can be fined $5000 for every illegal alien found working on the premises. If these fines were ever imposed, hiring of illegals would end tomorrow.

But that's the problem. That's nothing. They are probably saving that much money employing the illegal to start with.

No, that isn't the problem. Can you produce evidence that such fines have been imposed on any employer in the last 15 years?

 

[JoeB131]

No, that isn't the problem. Can you produce evidence that such fines have been imposed on any employer in the last 15 years?

Again, if they were or not is irrelevent.

If you are an employer and you are employing Jose at $25,000 instead of Joe at $40,000, you are ALREADY saving $15,000. On the Off Chance INS catches Jose in your plant, and fines you $5,000, you are still $10,000 ahead on the deal.

and, yes, these employers will produce the 'Well, his documents looked okay" excuses where Jose claimed he was Joe Kawolski, and the pictures don't even look the same.

 

[RKMBrown]

I have a fence around my yard. Gated communities have walls around them with security guards. You have to be stupid or fundamentally dishonest to argue that walls don't work.

Yes. And people will continue to put fences around places they want to keep secure. The higher and the more barbed wire the better. Adding an electric fence is effective.

Well, lefties, if you don't think fences make any difference, then remove that fence around the White House. Of course, the guards there are watching for people, though they have fucked up in the past.

If we had a fence, more security at the border and NO rewards for entering illegally or overstaying your visa, I doubt we'd have a problem. Take away the perks for sneaking in and the problem will solve itself. If sneaking in meant getting caught eventually and gaining nothing, people wouldn't bother. As it is, they were practically invited with big promises from Obama.

Yeah, and while we're at it we can remove the fence around Area 51 and all the other bases the military owns. We can remove the fence around ICBM sites. That shouldn't be a problem since fences don't work, right?

The people who object to fences are just plain stupid.

Anyone who thinks we protect ICBM sites with fences is a moron.

Notice the fence, moron:

ROFL you actually think that fence is there to stop people from getting over? ROFL that's funny.

 

[RKMBrown]

Walls and fences have worked every time they have been tried.

Only when they have an army on the wall.

Is this the GOP jobs plan?

We already have an army on the border. A well designed fence makes their job 10 times easier. There simply is no valid reason for not building a fence.

There's already a fence in place.
What do you want to do ? Build it higher? Add a moat?
It still needs one patrol every 200 yds or so. This actually means a force of 20,000 to 30,000 men to keep an eye on the wall.
And then there's the fact that illegals could then go by boat instead.

You could put a millon man army on the fence and it still would not stop the illegals from coming over. The sad fact is it would just give the illegals more people to help them come into the USA. Duh!! When are you guys gonna figure out what's going on down there?

What utter horseshit. I'll just right you off as a moron.

You are NOT LISTENING. The people we are paying to guard the border have been ORDERED to render assistance to illegals crossing into the USA. THEY HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO HELP THEM CROSS, HELP THEM COME TO AMERICA, HELP THEM NOT STOP THEM FROM COMING. HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE DO YOU WANT TO SEND TO THE BORDER TO HELP THEM IMMIGRATE ILLEGALLY?

 

[RKMBrown]

I have a fence around my yard. Gated communities have walls around them with security guards. You have to be stupid or fundamentally dishonest to argue that walls don't work.

Yes. And people will continue to put fences around places they want to keep secure. The higher and the more barbed wire the better. Adding an electric fence is effective.

Well, lefties, if you don't think fences make any difference, then remove that fence around the White House. Of course, the guards there are watching for people, though they have fucked up in the past.

If we had a fence, more security at the border and NO rewards for entering illegally or overstaying your visa, I doubt we'd have a problem. Take away the perks for sneaking in and the problem will solve itself. If sneaking in meant getting caught eventually and gaining nothing, people wouldn't bother. As it is, they were practically invited with big promises from Obama.

ROFL yeah cause mexicans don't know how to cut wire.... ROFL YOU GUYS ARE SO DAMN FUNNY

Do you really think anyone is going to just walk up to a fence like the one pictured with a pair of wire cutters?

Yes. Is there some reason you think mexicans would refuse to cut wire?

 

[RKMBrown]

Do you really think a wall will keep out illegals?

It will keep out 95% of them. Walls and fences have worked every time they have been tried.

When you you leftwing turds going to admit that you don't want to seal the border?

Who do you think you're fooling?

sealing the border won't work. First, half of "illegals' didn't sneak across the border. They came here on planes or boats or buses on legit visas and then overstayed their visas.

second- and I know this is hard for you to grasp- Fences don't work. The Berlin Wall didn't work. The Great Wall of China didn't work. If people want to get past something bad enough, they will.

Third- I don't want to break this to you, but you are kind of a patsy. I know that you are one of these Bubba rednecks who just hates, hates, hates brown people, but the reality is, the people who run your party, the one-Percenters and rich people and business owners you can't wait to give tax breaks and free trade treaties to? They love them some Mexicans. They love them sneaking across the border and taking your job for less money.

You see, the real solution is not to put up a fence some clever fellow will just find a way to sneak around.

The Real solution is to bust those who hire them. The sweatshop and the construction site that picked up a bunch of day laborers at Home Depot and the Rich assholes like Meg Whitman who hire illegals to take care of their kids because they can't be bothered. You get caught hiring illegals, you pay HUGE honking fines.

Actually the Berlin Wall did work. It reduce border traffic to a handful of people during the time it existed, as opposed to thousands of people every day. The great wall of China also worked. It limited invasions from Mongol hoards to once every 300 years, as one of your fellow deniers admitted.

The bottom line: like everyone else who says a fence wouldn't work, you're full of shit. Further, Democrats don't want to bust anyone from hiring illegals. The Obama administration has interfered with any such attempts.

The bottom line is that your ilk wants more illegals to enter the country because they vote Democrat.

ROFL

 

[bripat9643]

No, that isn't the problem. Can you produce evidence that such fines have been imposed on any employer in the last 15 years?

Again, if they were or not is irrelevent.

If you are an employer and you are employing Jose at $25,000 instead of Joe at $40,000, you are ALREADY saving $15,000. On the Off Chance INS catches Jose in your plant, and fines you $5,000, you are still $10,000 ahead on the deal.

and, yes, these employers will produce the 'Well, his documents looked okay" excuses where Jose claimed he was Joe Kawolski, and the pictures don't even look the same.

Yes, they are relevant. Penalties that aren't ever imposed aren't really penalties, are they? Is idiotic to claim they don't work when they have never been used. If you thing $5000 isn't enough, then raise the amount to $10,000 or even $20,000. That will destroy the economic benefit of employing an illegal in any job. However, the idea if putting business owners in prison is just an expression of your hatred for corporations, and it's also illegal.

 

[bripat9643]

I have a fence around my yard. Gated communities have walls around them with security guards. You have to be stupid or fundamentally dishonest to argue that walls don't work.

Yes. And people will continue to put fences around places they want to keep secure. The higher and the more barbed wire the better. Adding an electric fence is effective.

Well, lefties, if you don't think fences make any difference, then remove that fence around the White House. Of course, the guards there are watching for people, though they have fucked up in the past.

If we had a fence, more security at the border and NO rewards for entering illegally or overstaying your visa, I doubt we'd have a problem. Take away the perks for sneaking in and the problem will solve itself. If sneaking in meant getting caught eventually and gaining nothing, people wouldn't bother. As it is, they were practically invited with big promises from Obama.

ROFL yeah cause mexicans don't know how to cut wire.... ROFL YOU GUYS ARE SO DAMN FUNNY

Do you really think anyone is going to just walk up to a fence like the one pictured with a pair of wire cutters?

Yes. Is there some reason you think mexicans would refuse to cut wire?

The presence of a border guard who would immediately arrest him.

 

[FA_Q2]

I have a fence around my yard. Gated communities have walls around them with security guards. You have to be stupid or fundamentally dishonest to argue that walls don't work.

Yes. And people will continue to put fences around places they want to keep secure. The higher and the more barbed wire the better. Adding an electric fence is effective.

Well, lefties, if you don't think fences make any difference, then remove that fence around the White House. Of course, the guards there are watching for people, though they have fucked up in the past.

If we had a fence, more security at the border and NO rewards for entering illegally or overstaying your visa, I doubt we'd have a problem. Take away the perks for sneaking in and the problem will solve itself. If sneaking in meant getting caught eventually and gaining nothing, people wouldn't bother. As it is, they were practically invited with big promises from Obama.

ROFL yeah cause mexicans don't know how to cut wire.... ROFL YOU GUYS ARE SO DAMN FUNNY

Do you really think anyone is going to just walk up to a fence like the one pictured with a pair of wire cutters?

Yes. Is there some reason you think mexicans would refuse to cut wire?

The presence of a border guard who would immediately arrest him.

Hence all th4e points that have been ignored about the massive cost of such an endeavor. You could essentially accomplish the same without the fence at all but with the guards.

 

[bripat9643]

Yes. And people will continue to put fences around places they want to keep secure. The higher and the more barbed wire the better. Adding an electric fence is effective.

Well, lefties, if you don't think fences make any difference, then remove that fence around the White House. Of course, the guards there are watching for people, though they have fucked up in the past.

If we had a fence, more security at the border and NO rewards for entering illegally or overstaying your visa, I doubt we'd have a problem. Take away the perks for sneaking in and the problem will solve itself. If sneaking in meant getting caught eventually and gaining nothing, people wouldn't bother. As it is, they were practically invited with big promises from Obama.

ROFL yeah cause mexicans don't know how to cut wire.... ROFL YOU GUYS ARE SO DAMN FUNNY

Do you really think anyone is going to just walk up to a fence like the one pictured with a pair of wire cutters?

Yes. Is there some reason you think mexicans would refuse to cut wire?

The presence of a border guard who would immediately arrest him.

Hence all th4e points that have been ignored about the massive cost of such an endeavor. You could essentially accomplish the same without the fence at all but with the guards.

What points were ignored? 10 times as many border guards are required without a fence than with a fence. The fence makes guarding the border cheaper. All those against building a fence are actually against sealing the border. They support illegal immigration.

You aren't fooling anyone.

 

[danielpalos]

This idea should make liberal heads explode, the main reason being that it would obviously work:

US-Mexico Border Tighter Border Security Requires Mexico s Cooperation

To quickly secure our Southern Border, open the construction of the border fence to public and private sponsorship. Crowd source it.

If individuals, private organizations, and state or local governments with jurisdiction were allowed to finance construction of one mile segments, build out would occur quickly, leaving only a subset for the Federal Government to finance.

What do you think of this as a "power down" solution for a future Republican Administration?​

I believe the amusement park business model is more necessary and proper simply because we have a Commerce Clause.

 

[OnePercenter]

That's just an expression of your hatred of corporations. The laws on the books would be perfectly adequate if they were enforced. the harshest laws in the world won't do a thing if they aren't enforced. Currently, I believe, an employer can be fined $5000 for every illegal alien found working on the premises. If these fines were ever imposed, hiring of illegals would end tomorrow.

It's amusing to see you talking about what the left won't like since you are part of the left.

Thank You for reiterating my point!

FYI: I'm no more left than you are a United States citizen.

I'm pro working class which is the end of the discussion.

 

[danielpalos]

Why are alleged Capitalists on the right losing money on Commerce at our borders?

It seems to me, they made more advances toward communism, in Cuba.

 

[bripat9643]

That's just an expression of your hatred of corporations. The laws on the books would be perfectly adequate if they were enforced. the harshest laws in the world won't do a thing if they aren't enforced. Currently, I believe, an employer can be fined $5000 for every illegal alien found working on the premises. If these fines were ever imposed, hiring of illegals would end tomorrow.

It's amusing to see you talking about what the left won't like since you are part of the left.

Thank You for reiterating my point!

FYI: I'm no more left than you are a United States citizen.

I'm pro working class which is the end of the discussion.

ROLF I reiterated nothing.

You're as left as Pol Pot.

 

[Mr Natural]

A 2,000 mile fence.

You people are fucking nuts.

 

[bripat9643]

A 2,000 mile fence.

You people are fucking nuts.

The Saudis are building an 800 mile fence, so why is it nuts for the U.S. to build a 2000 mile fence?