Budget Approved

[Iriemon]

Uhhh.... The thread IS about the approval of the budget.... albeit the stimulus spending must be appropriated somewhere, right? Or are you going to claim that spending isn't being budgeted for?

Fair enough -- the post you responded to had been addressing the deficit spending this year which is caused in big part by the stimulus bill.

I see.... So now the claim is that "the deficit spending is all the stimulus' fault" (more or less anyway).

One more time, back to the previous post referred to:
The budget resolution is a nonbinding document that does not enact policy, but establishes rules for much of the legislation that will be considered in the coming months. It sets limits for spending on most existing government programs and permits lawmakers to pursue certain additional initiatives so long as they do not increase the deficit.
washingtonpost.com

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that means that the stimulus (an existing government program) is subject to limits -- in other words, there are budget constraints that affect the amount of stimulus spending that can take place. Correct?

I don't know the answer to that. But it says non-binding so it seems more like a guideline than a hard rule.

 

[Newby]

The reason is that many very smart and knowledgeable people, including those in both the recent Republican and current Democratic administrations, have made it very clear that the economy is in danger of tanking into a major recession or depresseion, and that massive fiscal stimulus is both warranted and necessary to prevent it from being much worse.

You may not for whatever reason agree with that proposition, but that's the reason.

Dude, seriously, get a life.

You don't need to answer every post in every thread, you have reached the point where people won't even read your stuff because you over saturate.

I don't need you to hand me the idiot justifacations these morons use for their out of control behavior, i heard it all before.

Stop trying to be the focal point of every thread, state your opinion and move on, surprisingly, we get along just fine without you trying to explain every postion someone is against.

And explain that it is "ignoring" someone, or how someone neg repped them, or someone *gasp* cussed....OHHHHHH the DRAMA of it all.

And this person claims to be a 'dude' whenever I referred to him as a 'she'. Sorry, but there's 'female' written all over that, not to mention the cute little kitten in his avatar.

Not that this is relevant in any manner.

 

[DamnYankee]

Fair enough -- the post you responded to had been addressing the deficit spending this year which is caused in big part by the stimulus bill.

I see.... So now the claim is that "the deficit spending is all the stimulus' fault" (more or less anyway).

One more time, back to the previous post referred to:
The budget resolution is a nonbinding document that does not enact policy, but establishes rules for much of the legislation that will be considered in the coming months. It sets limits for spending on most existing government programs and permits lawmakers to pursue certain additional initiatives so long as they do not increase the deficit.
washingtonpost.com

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that means that the stimulus (an existing government program) is subject to limits -- in other words, there are budget constraints that affect the amount of stimulus spending that can take place. Correct?

I don't know the answer to that. But it says non-binding so it seems more like a guideline than a hard rule.

"nonbinding that does not enact policy, but establishes rules for much of the legislation that will be considered in the coming months"

I'm sure there's a great deal of difference.... Especially since no one seems to follow rules once they've been established anyway....

 

[Xenophon]

Sorry. You made a post and I responded with a comment about a subject I wanted to state my opinion. There are lots of threads I don't participate in. Most I don't. If my posts bother you or you don't think they are worth reading don't read them, or put me on ignore.

I don't think you are grasping how out of hand you are with this.

As I post this, there have been 60 responces to the opening post.

You've made 19 of them.

19.

Almost one third of this thread is your posts.

You really has so much to say on every subject?

Really?

I'm saying this for your own good, if you try to bury people with posts, eventually they just stop reading them, step back and make your words stick.

Throttle down, say what you have to say and let it go, you seem to want to argue everyone else's opinion away.

 

[Yurt]

Don't you read my posts? I talk about lots of stuff.

Do I support Obama's budgets because of the deficit? For this year to stimulate the economy yes. In a recession deficit spending has justification. Not when the economy is doing well.

Do I support Obama's budget running deficits after the economy is on its feet? No. He needs to cut spending and increase taxes to balance the budget.

You're just going to propose that he cuts all the programs that he just started with this massive spending once the economy is 'back on its feet'? How do you unbreak an egg, exactly? Do you even have any clue how much of the GDP the health industry is?

Some of the spending is not long term. For example, I believe about 1/3 of the stimulus package is actually tax cuts that are effective this year only.

There are certainly other areas where IMO spending can be cut significantly.

No, I don't know how much of GDP is for the heatlh industry. How much?

I do know that seniors are already covered by national health care, as are the poorer under Medicaid. I've read that 90% of a person's heath care costs are typically incurred in the last 6 months of life. If that is the case, covering everyone under a health care system shouldn't cost that much more than we are paying now. It wouldn't surprise me if you cut the insurance companies out of the equation overall costs relative to GDP might decrease.

but, but, but....may liberals say tax cuts don't stimulate the economy

 

[DamnYankee]

Iriemon:
No, I don't know how much of GDP is for the heatlh industry. How much?


Surprising... That you wouldn't know, that is.


Record Share Of Economy Spent on Health Care

By Marc Kaufman and Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, January 10, 2006; Page A01

Rising health care costs, already threatening many basic industries, now consume 16 percent of the nation's economic output -- the highest proportion ever, the government said yesterday in its latest calculation.

The nation's health care bill continued to grow substantially faster than inflation and wages, increasing by almost 8 percent in 2004, the most recent year with near-final numbers.

Record Share Of Economy Spent on Health Care - washingtonpost.com


USA Spent $2.2 Trillion, 16.2% of GDP, on Health Care in 2007
Health spending in the United States grew 6.1 percent in 2007, to $2.2 trillion or $7,421 per person.
For comparison the total GDP per person in China is $6,100. This continues the trend of health care spending taking an every increasing portion of the economic output (the economy grew by 4.8 percent in 2007). This brings health care spending to 16.2% of GDP (which is yet another, in a string of record high percentages of GDP spent on health care). In 2003 the total health care spending was 15.3 of GDP.

http://investing.curiouscatblog.net...2-trillion-162-of-gdp-on-health-care-in-2007/



This document is also available as a printable .pdf file.
Health Insurance Costs

Facts on the Cost of Health Insurance and Health Care

Introduction

By several measures, health care spending continues to rise at a rapid rate and forcing businesses and families to cut back on operations and household expenses respectively.

In 2008, total national health expenditures were expected to rise 6.9 percent -- two times the rate of inflation.1 Total spending was $2.4 TRILLION in 2007, or $7900 per person1. Total health care spending represented 17 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).

NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Costs

 

[Iriemon]

Iriemon:
No, I don't know how much of GDP is for the heatlh industry. How much?

Surprising... That you wouldn't know, that is.

Thanks, I think.

Record Share Of Economy Spent on Health Care

By Marc Kaufman and Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, January 10, 2006; Page A01

Rising health care costs, already threatening many basic industries, now consume 16 percent of the nation's economic output -- the highest proportion ever, the government said yesterday in its latest calculation.

The nation's health care bill continued to grow substantially faster than inflation and wages, increasing by almost 8 percent in 2004, the most recent year with near-final numbers.

Record Share Of Economy Spent on Health Care - washingtonpost.com

USA Spent $2.2 Trillion, 16.2% of GDP, on Health Care in 2007
Health spending in the United States grew 6.1 percent in 2007, to $2.2 trillion or $7,421 per person.
For comparison the total GDP per person in China is $6,100. This continues the trend of health care spending taking an every increasing portion of the economic output (the economy grew by 4.8 percent in 2007). This brings health care spending to 16.2% of GDP (which is yet another, in a string of record high percentages of GDP spent on health care). In 2003 the total health care spending was 15.3 of GDP.

http://investing.curiouscatblog.net...2-trillion-162-of-gdp-on-health-care-in-2007/

This document is also available as a printable .pdf file.
Health Insurance Costs

Facts on the Cost of Health Insurance and Health Care

Introduction

By several measures, health care spending continues to rise at a rapid rate and forcing businesses and families to cut back on operations and household expenses respectively.

In 2008, total national health expenditures were expected to rise 6.9 percent -- two times the rate of inflation.1 Total spending was $2.4 TRILLION in 2007, or $7900 per person1. Total health care spending represented 17 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).

NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Costs

Thanks. What's the point? I certainly agree our health care system is fucked up. That was a reason I supported Obama because he at least promised to try to change it instead of staying the same course that has got us to this point.

 

[Iriemon]

Sorry. You made a post and I responded with a comment about a subject I wanted to state my opinion. There are lots of threads I don't participate in. Most I don't. If my posts bother you or you don't think they are worth reading don't read them, or put me on ignore.

I don't think you are grasping how out of hand you are with this.

As I post this, there have been 60 responces to the opening post.

You've made 19 of them.

19.

Almost one third of this thread is your posts.

You really has so much to say on every subject?

Really?

I'm saying this for your own good, if you try to bury people with posts, eventually they just stop reading them, step back and make your words stick.

Throttle down, say what you have to say and let it go, you seem to want to argue everyone else's opinion away.

Great. So what. I apparently am the only one who wanted to discuss the issue on the contrary side so it's not surprising. Many if not most of the posts have been directed specifically to me. Many of the 19 have been responding to stupid ass comments about whether I should respond to insults or not.

You don't have to read my posts if they bother you.

 

[Iriemon]

You're just going to propose that he cuts all the programs that he just started with this massive spending once the economy is 'back on its feet'? How do you unbreak an egg, exactly? Do you even have any clue how much of the GDP the health industry is?

Some of the spending is not long term. For example, I believe about 1/3 of the stimulus package is actually tax cuts that are effective this year only.

There are certainly other areas where IMO spending can be cut significantly.

No, I don't know how much of GDP is for the heatlh industry. How much?

I do know that seniors are already covered by national health care, as are the poorer under Medicaid. I've read that 90% of a person's heath care costs are typically incurred in the last 6 months of life. If that is the case, covering everyone under a health care system shouldn't cost that much more than we are paying now. It wouldn't surprise me if you cut the insurance companies out of the equation overall costs relative to GDP might decrease.

but, but, but....may liberals say tax cuts don't stimulate the economy

I think it is questionable they do. Tax cuts arguably can provide a stimulus if people are spending, but if they are hoarding or paying down bills and not spending the extra income it doesn't create demand in the economy. However, over the long term the economy has not performed better when taxes were lower. At least top marginal rates. So draw your own conclusions.

 

[Indiana Oracle]

Here is a little parable.

I was married to wife #1. Renting a small post-WWII house during the late 70s. The front stairs collapsed enough to need major repair or replacement. I stood there and said to myself, oh shit, how am I going to be able to afford to fix this.

Came back inside and sat down in the kitchen. Wife asked me what was wrong and I explained. She said imperiously, just go down and get some nails and some wood(!). I said (prior to giving her a piece of my mind in the finest military tradition), there is no fucking wood and no fucking nails. And unless you want to alter our eating habits for a month, there is no fucking money either. It was down hill from there.

That, friends, is what is wrong with the Obama out-year spending plan which the CBO estimates will increase our national debt by 4 times. There will be consequences for all of us if this happens.

 

[Iriemon]

Here is a little parable.

I was married to wife #1. Renting a small post-WWII house during the late 70s. The front stairs collapsed enough to need major repair or replacement. I stood there and said to myself, oh shit, how am I going to be able to afford to fix this.

Came back inside and sat down in the kitchen. Wife asked me what was wrong and I explained. She said imperiously, just go down and get some nails and some wood(!). I said (prior to giving her a piece of my mind in the finest military tradition), there is no fucking wood and no fucking nails. And unless you want to alter our eating habits for a month, there is no fucking money either. It was down hill from there.

That, friends, is what is wrong with the Obama out-year spending plan which the CBO estimates will increase our national debt by 4 times. There will be consequences for all of us if this happens.

Why didn't you get a job or a better paying job and increase your revenue?

Where does the CBO project a quadrupling of the national debt? In its latest projection it projects the total debt to be roughly doubled.

 

[Indiana Oracle]

Here is a little parable.

I was married to wife #1. Renting a small post-WWII house during the late 70s. The front stairs collapsed enough to need major repair or replacement. I stood there and said to myself, oh shit, how am I going to be able to afford to fix this.

Came back inside and sat down in the kitchen. Wife asked me what was wrong and I explained. She said imperiously, just go down and get some nails and some wood(!). I said (prior to giving her a piece of my mind in the finest military tradition), there is no fucking wood and no fucking nails. And unless you want to alter our eating habits for a month, there is no fucking money either. It was down hill from there.

That, friends, is what is wrong with the Obama out-year spending plan which the CBO estimates will increase our national debt by 4 times. There will be consequences for all of us if this happens.

Why didn't you get a job or a better paying job and increase your revenue?

Where does the CBO project a quadrupling of the national debt? In its latest projection it projects the total debt to be roughly doubled.

Because it was during one of the worst recessions in memory and it was the only job I could get. I will stop there.

 

[Iriemon]

Here is a little parable.

I was married to wife #1. Renting a small post-WWII house during the late 70s. The front stairs collapsed enough to need major repair or replacement. I stood there and said to myself, oh shit, how am I going to be able to afford to fix this.

Came back inside and sat down in the kitchen. Wife asked me what was wrong and I explained. She said imperiously, just go down and get some nails and some wood(!). I said (prior to giving her a piece of my mind in the finest military tradition), there is no fucking wood and no fucking nails. And unless you want to alter our eating habits for a month, there is no fucking money either. It was down hill from there.

That, friends, is what is wrong with the Obama out-year spending plan which the CBO estimates will increase our national debt by 4 times. There will be consequences for all of us if this happens.

Why didn't you get a job or a better paying job and increase your revenue?

Where does the CBO project a quadrupling of the national debt? In its latest projection it projects the total debt to be roughly doubled.

Because it was during one of the worst recessions in memory and it was the only job I could get. I will stop there.

Then your parable isn't a good analogy at all. Because the Govt can raise revenue fairly readily.

 

[Indiana Oracle]

Why didn't you get a job or a better paying job and increase your revenue?

Where does the CBO project a quadrupling of the national debt? In its latest projection it projects the total debt to be roughly doubled.

Because it was during one of the worst recessions in memory and it was the only job I could get. I will stop there.

Then your parable isn't a good analogy at all. Because the Govt can raise revenue fairly readily.

You and wife #1 would have gotten along famously.

 

[Xenophon]

Great. So what. I apparently am the only one who wanted to discuss the issue on the contrary side so it's not surprising. Many if not most of the posts have been directed specifically to me. Many of the 19 have been responding to stupid ass comments about whether I should respond to insults or not.

You don't have to read my posts if they bother you.

I have been paying attention, you don't discuss anything, you go on a crusade in each thread against anyone you think doesn't agree with you and make dozens and dozens of posts.

Don't listen, go ahead and make yourself irrelivent.

You are halfway there already.

 

[Iriemon]

Great. So what. I apparently am the only one who wanted to discuss the issue on the contrary side so it's not surprising. Many if not most of the posts have been directed specifically to me. Many of the 19 have been responding to stupid ass comments about whether I should respond to insults or not.

You don't have to read my posts if they bother you.

I have been paying attention, you don't discuss anything, you go on a crusade in each thread against anyone you think doesn't agree with you and make dozens and dozens of posts.

Don't listen, go ahead and make yourself irrelivent.

You are halfway there already.

LOL -- well hell, if I'm halfway relevant I'm ahead of about 90% of the yahoos here already. : ) I'll think about what you say; I do sometimes concede points and I don't see the fun bunch doing it alot either, but it's also true that threads tend to go round and round too much sometimes. I sometimes try to stop that by saying "this is repetitive" but you saw how that worked in this thread -- "Just when I thought I was out ... they pull me back in."

 

[jeffrockit]

What a shock.. the doe eyed DEMs overwhelmingly supported it

What a dark, dark, day for our country....

Yes, end of the world stuff.

The nerve of those damned Dems supporting college loans, early childhood education programs, veterans' benefits and investments in renewable energy aimed at reducing the nation's dependence on foreign oil.

Why it's almost like they WANT this nation to survive intact or something.

Selfless bastards!

Yeah the nerve of them passing even more government spending. It's not like we are in a serious depression and really don't have the money for these programs.
I do realize that some are good programs but almost none will help the economy. The truth is, this is the Dems making up for lost time. This is not one party looking out for this country anymore than it was when the Repubs were in control.
Take off the partisan blinders and it becomes crystal clear....they only work for their self intrest...ALL of them!

 

[DamnYankee]

Iriemon:
No, I don't know how much of GDP is for the heatlh industry. How much?

Surprising... That you wouldn't know, that is.

Thanks, I think.

Record Share Of Economy Spent on Health Care

By Marc Kaufman and Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, January 10, 2006; Page A01

Rising health care costs, already threatening many basic industries, now consume 16 percent of the nation's economic output -- the highest proportion ever, the government said yesterday in its latest calculation.

The nation's health care bill continued to grow substantially faster than inflation and wages, increasing by almost 8 percent in 2004, the most recent year with near-final numbers.

Record Share Of Economy Spent on Health Care - washingtonpost.com

USA Spent $2.2 Trillion, 16.2% of GDP, on Health Care in 2007
Health spending in the United States grew 6.1 percent in 2007, to $2.2 trillion or $7,421 per person.
For comparison the total GDP per person in China is $6,100. This continues the trend of health care spending taking an every increasing portion of the economic output (the economy grew by 4.8 percent in 2007). This brings health care spending to 16.2% of GDP (which is yet another, in a string of record high percentages of GDP spent on health care). In 2003 the total health care spending was 15.3 of GDP.

http://investing.curiouscatblog.net...2-trillion-162-of-gdp-on-health-care-in-2007/

This document is also available as a printable .pdf file.
Health Insurance Costs

Facts on the Cost of Health Insurance and Health Care

Introduction

By several measures, health care spending continues to rise at a rapid rate and forcing businesses and families to cut back on operations and household expenses respectively.

In 2008, total national health expenditures were expected to rise 6.9 percent -- two times the rate of inflation.1 Total spending was $2.4 TRILLION in 2007, or $7900 per person1. Total health care spending represented 17 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).

NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Costs

Thanks. What's the point? I certainly agree our health care system is fucked up. That was a reason I supported Obama because he at least promised to try to change it instead of staying the same course that has got us to this point.

The point(s):
1.) Health care (public health administration, to be precise) is my profession, so I know a little bit about how the system got fucked up, and I also have a pretty good handle on what it would take to fix it. Politicians can promise all they want; it's what they do to get elected. However, politicians (including Presidents) do not have the answers to everything, despite all the nice words you hear from them (on any subject).
2.) Obama and McCain, AND other candidates not in the 2-party system, promised to try to change the fucked up system -- they simply had different ideas about how to do that (which they presumably got from someone who DID know something about the subject). IMO, however, none of them can/will fix it -- and that means, since Obama is now in charge of trying to do so, Obama can't/won't fix it because he's still going at it with a "bandaid approach". There is no real reform.
3.) Reform is what is required in order to lower the cost ratio to the GDP, and it's conceivable that it could be done. You know, you can't build a new house on an old foundation. The analogy applies here.

 

[DamnYankee]

Here is a little parable.

I was married to wife #1. Renting a small post-WWII house during the late 70s. The front stairs collapsed enough to need major repair or replacement. I stood there and said to myself, oh shit, how am I going to be able to afford to fix this.

Came back inside and sat down in the kitchen. Wife asked me what was wrong and I explained. She said imperiously, just go down and get some nails and some wood(!). I said (prior to giving her a piece of my mind in the finest military tradition), there is no fucking wood and no fucking nails. And unless you want to alter our eating habits for a month, there is no fucking money either. It was down hill from there.

That, friends, is what is wrong with the Obama out-year spending plan which the CBO estimates will increase our national debt by 4 times. There will be consequences for all of us if this happens.

Why didn't you get a job or a better paying job and increase your revenue?

Where does the CBO project a quadrupling of the national debt? In its latest projection it projects the total debt to be roughly doubled.

This looks like approx. quadruple in the first year to me. The WAPost numbers (used in their article and graph) came from the CBO.

Projected Deficit - washingtonpost.com

 

[Iriemon]

Here is a little parable.

I was married to wife #1. Renting a small post-WWII house during the late 70s. The front stairs collapsed enough to need major repair or replacement. I stood there and said to myself, oh shit, how am I going to be able to afford to fix this.

Came back inside and sat down in the kitchen. Wife asked me what was wrong and I explained. She said imperiously, just go down and get some nails and some wood(!). I said (prior to giving her a piece of my mind in the finest military tradition), there is no fucking wood and no fucking nails. And unless you want to alter our eating habits for a month, there is no fucking money either. It was down hill from there.

That, friends, is what is wrong with the Obama out-year spending plan which the CBO estimates will increase our national debt by 4 times. There will be consequences for all of us if this happens.

Why didn't you get a job or a better paying job and increase your revenue?

Where does the CBO project a quadrupling of the national debt? In its latest projection it projects the total debt to be roughly doubled.

This looks like approx. quadruple in the first year to me. The WAPost numbers (used in their article and graph) came from the CBO.

Projected Deficit - washingtonpost.com

OK, I see why you're confused. That article talks about the deficit. You had said debt. Those are two totally different things.

The deficit is a measure in any given year the difference between expenditures and revenues.

The debt is the accumulation of amount borrowed.

Obama possilble might quadruple the debt (depending upon how you measure it) but he is not going to quadruple the debt, or even close to it.

As Diamond Dave how to measure a deficit, and he'll tell you to look at how much the Govt borrowed in a year. Using that measure, the Govt borrowed over a trillion dollars in Bush's last year, and Obama is unlikely to even double that, stimulus spending and all.