Bryan Fischer: "No More Mosques, Period"

[AquaAthena]

What's wrong with Freedom of Religion?

some people seem to not understand that the same principles of religious freedom they enjoy would disappear if they got what they wanted on this

Not necessarily. If one can properly prove that Islam is a threat to the US Government and that its followers wish to overthrow said Government then the 1st Amendment does not apply.

The Constitution is not a death pact. An accepted religion can not knowingly violate the laws of the land, it can not advocate in the religion the overthrow of the Government nor the murder of its citizens.

Did I miss where the 1st Amendment protects a religion that believes in Human sacrifice? Or ritual murder? Same with the advocacy of the destruction of our form of Government. Same with the advocacy of the murder of US Citizens.

Former Republican Sen. Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania told Fox News that Obama seems to misunderstand that Islam is not just a religion, but also a political doctrine. He also said the mosque is being run by a man who accused the U.S. of being an accomplice in the Sept. 11 attacks.

 

[bodecea]

Did you know that there are some Muslims that do not want the proposed mosque in New York to be built. So it's not just Christians.

OMIGOD! That makes ALLLLLLL the difference in the world!!!!!!

We already know you're a stupid fuck, no sense in proving it time after time.

Go ahead and tell us how much smarter you are, Secesh.

 

[chanel]

Here is an interesting, unbiased (in my opinion), editorial about Rauf and the mosque. Questions need to be answered and perhaps everyone's mind could be put at ease.

Is the “Ground Zero Imam,” Feisal Abd ar-Rauf, a moderate Muslim?

So what might be an American definition of a “moderate Muslim?” Perhaps the following two entries would be a good place to start.

(i) a believer who unqualifiedly rejects terrorism against anyone.

(ii) a believer who embraces the doctrine of “neo-ijtihad,” which holds that Muslims today are not chained to the Qur’anic interpretations and legal decisions accepted centuries ago as canonical. Specifically, a “moderate Muslim American” is someone who unqualifiedly renounces the applicability of the Sharia, the Holy Law, in American society.

If Mr. Rauf can so define “moderate Islam,” he may not be as American as apple pie, but he would certainly be as American as much of New York City. Any mosque built by such a believer would honor us all.

What Is Moderate Islam?

 

[Liability]

Here is an interesting, unbiased (in my opinion), editorial about Rauf and the mosque. Questions need to be answered and perhaps everyone's mind could be put at ease.

Is the “Ground Zero Imam,” Feisal Abd ar-Rauf, a moderate Muslim?

So what might be an American definition of a “moderate Muslim?” Perhaps the following two entries would be a good place to start.

(i) a believer who unqualifiedly rejects terrorism against anyone.

(ii) a believer who embraces the doctrine of “neo-ijtihad,” which holds that Muslims today are not chained to the Qur’anic interpretations and legal decisions accepted centuries ago as canonical. Specifically, a “moderate Muslim American” is someone who unqualifiedly renounces the applicability of the Sharia, the Holy Law, in American society.

If Mr. Rauf can so define “moderate Islam,” he may not be as American as apple pie, but he would certainly be as American as much of New York City. Any mosque built by such a believer would honor us all.

What Is Moderate Islam?

That was an interesting article. Thanks.

In reply, let me ask you and others with an open mind to CONSIDER one line of "rebuttal."

August 9th, 2010 9:56
There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim

Either you are a Muslim who observes the 5 pillars of Islam and submit totally to Allah and accept that Muhammad is is messenger and that the Quran is the literal word of Allah or you are a non-Muslim, an apostate. There is no HALF-WAY-HOUSE in Islam. Read the Quran for proof.

Amil Imani, is an Iranian-American, who is now an ex-Muslim and writes about Islam. Amil says.
“There is no such thing as moderate Islam. There is no such thing as secular Islam or a secular Muslim. It’s the nature of the faith to deny any separation of religion and the state or religion and society. There are numerous sects within Islam. One and all are extremes and not in the least amenable to change. Keep in mind that Islam claims that it is the perfect eternal faith for mankind. Splits have occurred and will continue to occur in Islam. Yet, reformation has not happened in nearly 1400 years and is not going to happen. Islam is carved in granite, just the way it was. No change is possible. Allah’s Qur’an is a sealed volume. ”

-- There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim – Understanding Other Cultures - My Telegraph

 

[Kalam]

The "LOL" was the only honest part of that reply. I had almost forgotten that conversion of others to your vile "faith" is required by your hideous holy book, and you Muslims insist on converting non-believers (when you aren't trying to just kill them). And as part of this grand plan, one is required to do all the prayers and read the Qur'an, but you folks provide the interesting twist: folks gotta read that cheese-dick work of fiction IN the original language even if that means one has to learn that language. Translations are always inferior, of course, to the alleged word of that violent madman god you worship. So, even though it is ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL CLEAR (and if there was such a thing as an HONEST Muslim "scholar" he would be compelled to admit and acknowledge) that some verses within the Qur'an are undeniably contradictory.

Incorrect. If you don't understand the difference between mere adherence to a religion and religious scholarship, this discussion is pointless. A person can read and follow the Qur'an in translation and still be a Muslim, but some knowledge of Arabic is required to form proper jurisprudential interpretations and to understand the nuances of the language used in the book.

But you, being a fraud as always, simply deny that major premise: "No no. There are no contradictions in any verses of the Qur'an."

Wrong. Go back and read what I said in the last post again.

You are, now, as always, exactly what I said you are. You are a liar.

And you still have yet to provide an example of this. I'm sure I don't have to remind you that you lied about me calling Islam a "religion of peace" in this very thread.

Here is a very brief excerpt of a work (link provided at end) that demonstrates internal contradictions within Qur'anic verses: * * * *
(Quran-3:7)— “He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are clear and decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.”

Allah says in Quran that, “I made Qur’an very clear, simple and easy and written in Arabic (44:58, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40) so that Muslims (Arabs of course) can understand very easily?” Please listen what Merciful Allah says in Qur’an: “ But We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition? (54:22); and “We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand and learn wisdom (43:3)”. Allah emphatically declared that He made Quran very easy so that Muslims can understand very easily.

I wonder if you looked these ayat up yourself... let's take a look, shall we?

So We have made it easy in thy tongue that they may mind. - 44:58​

The person being addressed here is Muhammad (SAWS), not Muslims in general. Hence the singular possessive pronoun "thy" and the reference to "they", the Muslim community at large.

"Now We have made the Qur'an easy for remembrance. Is there any that will remember?" - 54:22​

Remembrance, not understanding. Non-Arabic speaking Muslims memorize significant portions of the Qur'an in Arabic for use in salah. I did this before I had any knowledge whatsoever of Arabic; it was easy to remember.

54:32 is word-for-word the same as 54:22. This is also the case with 54:40. Notice that the kafir author of your article added the word "understand" to his rendering of the ayah. I thought Muslims were the dishonest ones. Dhikr means "remembrance" or "invocation" and has nothing to do with "understanding." Oops!

All that being said, the Qur'an was easy to understand for those to whom it was recited, because it dealt with specific problems faced by that community. It's also easy for us to understand as long as we refer to relevant ahadith and other authentic historical accounts.

No where in the Quran Allah says that my words must be read with the help of Quranic interpretations and commentaries! * * * * -- Islam Watch - "Samples of Quranic (koran) Contradictions and Flaws" by Syed Kamran Mirza by Syed Kamran Mirza.

Syed got it right. The contradiction is quite clear. It is not a problem of "translation." No honest person could deny that contradiction.

Oh, it is a problem of translation, especially in this case since the author made his own additions. Kuffar who oppose Islam are nearly always dishonest when they discuss it, especially apostates.

Why would Allah contradict himself? If it's not a contradiction, but Allah merely changed his mind about whether his little tome was clear to Muslims for easy understanding -- or not -- then the Qur'an must be subject to abrogation.

None of those verses have been recognized by the ulema as nasikh or mansukh. It amazes me that you people are actually arrogant enough to think that you've discovered some sort of glaring contradiction that the ulema have supposedly managed to overlook for centuries. Silly ignoramuses.

And then there are these contradictions (which you can try to deny constitute contradictions, but that's just dishonest of you if you try, for obvious reasons). And, again, it is not a matter of mis-translation, either:

In spite of you having no knowledge of Arabic, you know that it's clearly not a matter of mistranslation. This is the difference between believers and kuffar - I realize that I have no formal religious training in Christian history or Greek or Hebrew, so I'm not qualified to offer any substantive interpretations of the Bible. To you people, though, any dumbass with a computer and a connection to "islam watch.com" is a certified scholar of Islam. Get real.

Anyway...

• Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion…. OR

There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. - 2:256​

• Quran-9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the poll-tax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden -- such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled. - 9:29​

• Quran-9:5: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….

Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you; so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves those who keep their duty. So when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters, wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free. Surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And if anyone of the idolaters seek thy protection, protect him till he hears the word of Allah, then convey him to his place of safety. This is because they are a people who know not. - 9:4-6​

• Quran-47:4: When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….

So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, smite the necks; then, when you have overcome them, make (them) prisoners, and afterwards (set them free) as a favour or for ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (shall be so). And if Allah please, He would certainly exact retribution from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never allow their deeds to perish. - 47:4​

• Quran-2:191: And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out of where they drove you out, and persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it; so if they fight you (in it), slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah. But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. The sacred month for the sacred month, and retaliation (is allowed) in sacred things. Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and keep your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty. - 2:191-194​

• Quran-8: 65: O Apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight…(against) unbelievers. * * * *

And if they incline to peace, include thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Surely he is the Hearer, the Knower. And if they intend to deceive thee, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee. He it is Who strengthened thee with His help and with the believers, and He has united their hearts. If thou hadst spent all that is in the earth, thou couldst not have united their hearts, but Allah united them. Surely he is Mighty, Wise. O Prophet, Allah is sufficient for thee and those who follow thee of the believers. O Prophet, urge the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast, they shall overcome two hundred; and if there be of you a hundred, they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand. - 8:61-65​

Sounds like a shit-load of compulsion going on, but there is no compulsion. So, again, either Allah's little book for easily misguided Muslims contains examples of the allegedly Almighty contradicting himself OR Allah changed his mind and the latter verses abrogate the former.

How does an Allah-fearing and devout Muslim wishing to be a good adherent of Islam resolve that? Does he refrain from compelling or attempting to compel others into "belief" in Islam OR does he act like a massively psychotic violent son of a bitch and strike off their heads and fingertips, and does he make them pay taxes to feel subjugated?

The general idea of Jihad is quite simple. Islam is hostile toward all non-Islamic systems and their instruments of oppression. Once Islam is established, people will be free to follow it or reject it as they desire (as there is to be "no compulsion in religion.") The targets of jihad are governments and militaries, not ordinary citizens. Jizyah is paid by non-Muslim males of fighting age in lieu of military service, which their Muslim counterparts are required to offer.

Women, children, the elderly, members of the clergy, and laborers may not be placed in harm's way unless they participate in the fighting or unless victory hinges entirely upon putting their lives at risk. Pillaging and looting are forbidden.

"As we have described earlier, there are many practical obstacles in establishing God's rule on earth, such as the power of the state, the social system and traditions and, in general, the whole human environment. Islam uses force only to remove these obstacles so that there may not remain any wall between Islam and individual human beings, and so that it may address their hearts and minds after releasing them from these material obstacles, and then leave them free to choose to accept or reject it." - Sayyid Qutb​

Ma'alim fi al-Tariq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Spin it all you wish, Kalam, but you never answer such a direct question. We all know why. You can't.

You really think you're hot shit, don't you?

Most lay Muslims could address these arguments of yours without much of a problem, friend.

 

[Coyote]

Incorrect. If you don't understand the difference between mere adherence to a religion and religious scholarship, this discussion is pointless. A person can read and follow the Qur'an in translation and still be a Muslim, but some knowledge of Arabic is required to form proper jurisprudential interpretations and to understand the nuances of the language used in the book.

Exactly.

What's interesting is the disconnect here. When arguing other religions - Christianity or Judaism for example, that is taken into account rather than literal words on a page.

For some reason, a different standard is applied to Islam.

 

[Liability]

The "LOL" was the only honest part of that reply. I had almost forgotten that conversion of others to your vile "faith" is required by your hideous holy book, and you Muslims insist on converting non-believers (when you aren't trying to just kill them). And as part of this grand plan, one is required to do all the prayers and read the Qur'an, but you folks provide the interesting twist: folks gotta read that cheese-dick work of fiction IN the original language even if that means one has to learn that language. Translations are always inferior, of course, to the alleged word of that violent madman god you worship. So, even though it is ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL CLEAR (and if there was such a thing as an HONEST Muslim "scholar" he would be compelled to admit and acknowledge) that some verses within the Qur'an are undeniably contradictory.

Incorrect. If you don't understand the difference between mere adherence to a religion and religious scholarship, this discussion is pointless.

Any discussion with a guy like you who refuses to be honest tends to be pointless.

* * * *

But you, being a fraud as always, simply deny that major premise: "No no. There are no contradictions in any verses of the Qur'an."

Wrong. Go back and read what I said in the last post again.

No, ma'am. I read it fine the first time. We all did. The problem is: you have major difficulties with honesty. You are incapable of it.

And you still have yet to provide an example of this. I'm sure I don't have to remind you that you lied about me calling Islam a "religion of peace" in this very thread.

No, no. You remain the liar. You change your positions and then demand proof from some long-dormant thread. Eat shit, you lying Muslim (redundant, I realize). As I said: just state your position clearly for once. There's no need to lay on all the Arabic language horseshit. And once you DO that, Malarkey, the rest is straigtforward logic -- another thing that gives you massive problems.

If the Qur'an does contradict itself from one verse to some other verses (and it does) -- can you just admit this at long last? -- then either the word of the Almighty is contradictory OR Allah CHANGED his mind. The latter verses, in that latter case, thus abrogate the earlier verses.

So do you agree now with abrogation? Your absurd reliance on jurisprudential Qur'anic interpretation bullshit notwithstanding, it really does come down to that correct, honest and obvious dichotomy.

I wonder if you looked these ayat up yourself... let's take a look, shall we?

So We have made it easy in thy tongue that they may mind. - 44:58​

The person being addressed here is Muhammad (SAWS), not Muslims in general. Hence the singular possessive pronoun "thy" and the reference to "they", the Muslim community at large.

"Now We have made the Qur'an easy for remembrance. Is there any that will remember?" - 54:22​

Remembrance, not understanding. Non-Arabic speaking Muslims memorize significant portions of the Qur'an in Arabic for use in salah. I did this before I had any knowledge whatsoever of Arabic; it was easy to remember.

54:32 is word-for-word the same as 54:22. This is also the case with 54:40. Notice that the kafir author of your article added the word "understand" to his rendering of the ayah. I thought Muslims were the dishonest ones. Dhikr means "remembrance" or "invocation" and has nothing to do with "understanding." Oops!

Oh. So the interpretation or translation YOU prefer is the correct one? LOL!

Anyway, your argument now comes down to the absurd contention that when there are contradictions in the Qur'an, it matters a whole lot if the term that is being contradicted is "understand" versus "remember."

All that being said, the Qur'an was easy to understand for those to whom it was recited, because it dealt with specific problems faced by that community. It's also easy for us to understand as long as we refer to relevant ahadith and other authentic historical accounts.

Bullshit, liar. If it was all that easy to understand, there would be no contradictions. But there are. Bad science. Bad math. Self-contradictory commands. And there would be no need for "scholars" to dissect and interpret.

* * * * [massive repetitive blather snipped since Malarkey, you are one WAY too verbose mullah-fuckah] * * * *

* * * *

Spin it all you wish, Kalam, but you never answer such a direct question. We all know why. You can't.

You really think you're hot shit, don't you?

Most lay Muslims could address these arguments of yours without much of a problem, friend.

But not you.

Why do guys like you always try to obscure how little you can offer in valid reply by loading on such volumes of excess verbiage?

And we are not friends, Malarkey. You are a thoroughly dishonest and petty little man with a baselessly very high opinion of yourself. That's fine. But since you are attempting to put the disease of Islam in a good light (like the dutiful propagandist you are), friendship is not possible. Your "scholarship" is in not just the alleged field of religion, but in the disgusting comic-book of the Islamic "faith." You may someday come to grasp why reasonable people are never impressed with your version of "scholarship."

 

[Kalam]

Exactly.

What's interesting is the disconnect here. When arguing other religions - Christianity or Judaism for example, that is taken into account rather than literal words on a page.

For some reason, a different standard is applied to Islam.

After 9/11, Islam became more than the religion of scruffy, bloodthirsty barbarians with funny clothes. That incident instantly transformed it into the Scourge of Satan, its primary goal being the indiscriminate slaughter of all true believers in Jesus Christ and the consumption of their blood. Fortunately, we found out that all you have to do is read a few out-of-context passages from their fruity little book if you want to understand the entire religion.

The Bible, of course, is far more esoteric and could never be understood by Muslims or silly leftists.

 

[Kalam]

As I said: just state your position clearly for once.

I did, dumbass.

You didn't feel up to rereading the post and I'm not about to explain it again for your sake.

There's no need to lay on all the Arabic language horseshit.

If you're going to get into an argument about the meaning of the Qur'an, you'll find that familiarity with the Arabic language might be somewhat important.

No, wait, that's dumb. Why the fuck would you need to learn that horseshit when you can read it in good old American on some douchebag's blog?

If the Qur'an does contradict itself from one verse to some other verses (and it does) -- can you just admit this at long last? -- then either the word of the Almighty is contradictory OR Allah CHANGED his mind. The latter verses, in that latter case, thus abrogate the earlier verses.

False dichotomy. Earlier verses were abrogated because the Qur'an dealt mostly with the present. Times changed, and certain injunctions became inapplicable as new situations developed.

So do you agree now with abrogation?

I only had to say it two or three times before you sort of picked up on that. Very impressive. Somebody will certainly be getting a gold star. Yeah, that happened when I became a Sunni about a year ago.

Again, here are the verses that are nasikh or mansukh. Surprise, surprise - yours don't appear among them:
http://www.muneerfareed.com/storage/al-itqan-fi-ulum-al-quran/nasikhmansukh.pdf

Oh. So the interpretation or translation YOU prefer is the correct one? LOL!

Uh, no. The translation that is correct is the correct one. The word is dhikr, the meaning is "remembrance." Google it yourself if you care that much.

Anyway, your argument now comes down to the absurd contention that when there are contradictions in the Qur'an, it matters a whole lot if the term that is being contradicted is "understand" versus "remember."

I know that this kind of stuff doesn't come easily to you, but your argument that those ayat are contradictory was contingent on the latter four discussing "understanding", which they do not.

it was all that easy to understand, there would be no contradictions. But there are. Bad science. Bad math. Self-contradictory commands. And there would be no need for "scholars" to dissect and interpret.

And you know all this because you've read it. Oh, wait...

 

[Father Time]

Here is an interesting, unbiased (in my opinion), editorial about Rauf and the mosque. Questions need to be answered and perhaps everyone's mind could be put at ease.

Is the “Ground Zero Imam,” Feisal Abd ar-Rauf, a moderate Muslim?

So what might be an American definition of a “moderate Muslim?” Perhaps the following two entries would be a good place to start.

(i) a believer who unqualifiedly rejects terrorism against anyone.

(ii) a believer who embraces the doctrine of “neo-ijtihad,” which holds that Muslims today are not chained to the Qur’anic interpretations and legal decisions accepted centuries ago as canonical. Specifically, a “moderate Muslim American” is someone who unqualifiedly renounces the applicability of the Sharia, the Holy Law, in American society.

If Mr. Rauf can so define “moderate Islam,” he may not be as American as apple pie, but he would certainly be as American as much of New York City. Any mosque built by such a believer would honor us all.

What Is Moderate Islam?

That was an interesting article. Thanks.

In reply, let me ask you and others with an open mind to CONSIDER one line of "rebuttal."

August 9th, 2010 9:56
There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim

Either you are a Muslim who observes the 5 pillars of Islam and submit totally to Allah and accept that Muhammad is is messenger and that the Quran is the literal word of Allah or you are a non-Muslim, an apostate. There is no HALF-WAY-HOUSE in Islam. Read the Quran for proof.

Amil Imani, is an Iranian-American, who is now an ex-Muslim and writes about Islam. Amil says.
“There is no such thing as moderate Islam. There is no such thing as secular Islam or a secular Muslim. It’s the nature of the faith to deny any separation of religion and the state or religion and society. There are numerous sects within Islam. One and all are extremes and not in the least amenable to change. Keep in mind that Islam claims that it is the perfect eternal faith for mankind. Splits have occurred and will continue to occur in Islam. Yet, reformation has not happened in nearly 1400 years and is not going to happen. Islam is carved in granite, just the way it was. No change is possible. Allah’s Qur’an is a sealed volume. ”

-- There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim – Understanding Other Cultures - My Telegraph

Holy No True Scotsman.

So it's impossible to be a Muslim without taking a literal view of the Qu'ran?

Do you apply the same standard to Christians?

Are you not a Christian if you don't believe the Universe was created in less than a week or that Noah's Ark is a true story?

 

[DiveCon]

Here is an interesting, unbiased (in my opinion), editorial about Rauf and the mosque. Questions need to be answered and perhaps everyone's mind could be put at ease.


What Is Moderate Islam?

That was an interesting article. Thanks.

In reply, let me ask you and others with an open mind to CONSIDER one line of "rebuttal."

August 9th, 2010 9:56
There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim

Either you are a Muslim who observes the 5 pillars of Islam and submit totally to Allah and accept that Muhammad is is messenger and that the Quran is the literal word of Allah or you are a non-Muslim, an apostate. There is no HALF-WAY-HOUSE in Islam. Read the Quran for proof.

Amil Imani, is an Iranian-American, who is now an ex-Muslim and writes about Islam. Amil says.
“There is no such thing as moderate Islam. There is no such thing as secular Islam or a secular Muslim. It’s the nature of the faith to deny any separation of religion and the state or religion and society. There are numerous sects within Islam. One and all are extremes and not in the least amenable to change. Keep in mind that Islam claims that it is the perfect eternal faith for mankind. Splits have occurred and will continue to occur in Islam. Yet, reformation has not happened in nearly 1400 years and is not going to happen. Islam is carved in granite, just the way it was. No change is possible. Allah’s Qur’an is a sealed volume. ”

-- There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim – Understanding Other Cultures - My Telegraph

Holy No True Scotsman.

So it's impossible to be a Muslim without taking a literal view of the Qu'ran?

Do you apply the same standard to Christians?

Are you not a Christian if you don't believe the Universe was created in less than a week or that Noah's Ark is a true story?

HE wasnt the one saying it
he was quoting another Muslim that said it

 

[Kalam]

HE wasnt the one saying it
he was quoting another Muslim that said it

*Former Muslim.

 

[DiveCon]

HE wasnt the one saying it
he was quoting another Muslim that said it

*Former Muslim.

correction noted
it still wasnt HIM saying it

 

[Father Time]

HE wasnt the one saying it
he was quoting another Muslim that said it

*Former Muslim.

correction noted
it still wasnt HIM saying it

Fair enough.

 

[bodecea]

Here is an interesting, unbiased (in my opinion), editorial about Rauf and the mosque. Questions need to be answered and perhaps everyone's mind could be put at ease.


What Is Moderate Islam?

That was an interesting article. Thanks.

In reply, let me ask you and others with an open mind to CONSIDER one line of "rebuttal."

August 9th, 2010 9:56
There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim

Either you are a Muslim who observes the 5 pillars of Islam and submit totally to Allah and accept that Muhammad is is messenger and that the Quran is the literal word of Allah or you are a non-Muslim, an apostate. There is no HALF-WAY-HOUSE in Islam. Read the Quran for proof.

Amil Imani, is an Iranian-American, who is now an ex-Muslim and writes about Islam. Amil says.
“There is no such thing as moderate Islam. There is no such thing as secular Islam or a secular Muslim. It’s the nature of the faith to deny any separation of religion and the state or religion and society. There are numerous sects within Islam. One and all are extremes and not in the least amenable to change. Keep in mind that Islam claims that it is the perfect eternal faith for mankind. Splits have occurred and will continue to occur in Islam. Yet, reformation has not happened in nearly 1400 years and is not going to happen. Islam is carved in granite, just the way it was. No change is possible. Allah’s Qur’an is a sealed volume. ”

-- There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim – Understanding Other Cultures - My Telegraph

Holy No True Scotsman.

So it's impossible to be a Muslim without taking a literal view of the Qu'ran?

Do you apply the same standard to Christians?

Are you not a Christian if you don't believe the Universe was created in less than a week or that Noah's Ark is a true story?

If people really, really believe there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim...then they have to believe that all muslims are a terrorist threat....and what does that lead to?