British Bishop Fined for Questioning Holocaust

[germanguy]

Did the Jews fine him?

I thought it was the Germans who fined him.

But who stands behind the Germans? Do know the Central Council of Jews in the FRG?

Just to put some things right:
1. Yes, Germany is pretty much a Representative Democracy, we vote for MPs which make then the laws. Any claimed jewish influence is quite stupid, as the Central Council of Jews is in general very outspoken, but not governing the country.

2. Our constitution, the "Grundgesetz" (= Basic Law) was formulated under the impression of the Third Reich. So the founding fathers / mothers (there were some) decided to put in some safeguards.

Art 18 Basic Law:

Whoever abuses the freedom of expression, in particular the freedom of the press (paragraph (1) of Article 5), the freedom of teaching (paragraph (3) of Article 5), the freedom of assembly (Article 8), the freedom of association (Article 9), the privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications (Article 10), the rights of property (Article 14), or the right of asylum (Article 16a) in order to combat the free democratic basic order shall forfeit these basic rights. This forfeiture and its extent shall be declared by the Federal Constitutional Court.

Also, political parties can be banned, if they act against the constitution.
(Happened only twice)

As the denial of the holocaust is generally used by antisemites and neo-nazis to work against our freedom, it is prosecuted.

Also, the use of nazi symbols (Nazi flags etc), or the so-called Hitler-Gruss is prohited. As well as pretty everything neo-nazis like to do.

To Americans this sometimes seems to be undemocratic or at least a limitation of the freedom of speech.
But seen from the historical context, it is making sense. The Nazis used in 1920s and 1930s these liberties of the first republic to openly use them against the republic.

This shall and will never happen again.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[Sunni Man]

As the denial of the holocaust is generally used by antisemites and neo-nazis to work against our freedom, it is prosecuted.

How can verbally denying a fictious event like the so called holocaust some how affect your freedoms ?

 

[germanguy]

As the denial of the holocaust is generally used by antisemites and neo-nazis to work against our freedom, it is prosecuted.

How can verbally denying a fictious event like the so called holocaust some how affect your freedoms ?

Ennobling a line like that is normally not worth it, but my Pizza is not here yet - so anyway.

1. You are invited to come over here, and I will personally lead you through some archives with Gestapo files.

Then we can visit some people with some personal experience.

Also, I am willing to travel with you to places like Dachau or Bergen-Belsen.
If you still believe then, that Zionists carried over several hundred thousand corpses in 1945, I can´t help it.

2. As the holocaust is a historical fact, denying it does make only sense if you

- want to undermine the credibility of jews as victims
- want to justify nazi politics. As the biggest crime of the nazis was the holocaust, it does make sense to disconnect the holocaust fromthe rest Anything else seems then to be just a little bit harsh.
- Are an antisemite, as denying a victim from being one is a very strong insult.

Therefore are people who deny the holocaust always very close to neo-nazis, even if they claim not to be neo-nazis.

Neonazis are not beeing fond of things I prefer to ve for my country (freedom, democracy, rule of law etc.) so they endanger my and everybodys freedom. They once did it here, that is enough.

So if people like this bishop are fined with € 12.000,00, I would personally prefer to let him pay more. These people just encourage others to take them as an example.
His position as a bishop should mean he should pay more attention to what he says.
Or he did so deliberately.

(BTW, 120 times 100 € means pay this or go to prison for 120 days. More than 90 days means that he will have now a criminal record in Germany).

regards
ze germanguy

P.S: F..k - Pizza is still not here, I am getting hungry.

 

[Sunni Man]

So sad that Germany must make a law to FORCE people to believe a myth.

It's like if the USA made a law that people must believe in Bigfoot or Loch Ness

 

[germanguy]

So sad that Germany must make a law to FORCE people to believe a myth.

It's like if the USA made a law that people must believe in Bigfoot or Loch Ness

Helpless...
I think you would not believe it if it lands on you.

Or you have an other agenda, therefore...

I quit this thread at this point...
regards
ze germanguy

 

[Colin]

So sad that Germany must make a law to FORCE people to believe a myth.

It's like if the USA made a law that people must believe in Bigfoot or Loch Ness

Sometimes you can be a real arsehole Sunni Man!

 

[tigerbob]

So sad that Germany must make a law to FORCE people to believe a myth.

It's like if the USA made a law that people must believe in Bigfoot or Loch Ness

I believe the parallel you are looking for is that it would be like the USA making a law that people must believe Sunni Man.

 

[Sunni Man]

So sad that Germany must make a law to FORCE people to believe a myth.

It's like if the USA made a law that people must believe in Bigfoot or Loch Ness

I believe the parallel you are looking for is that it would be like the USA making a law that people must believe Sunni Man.

I would vote for that law!!!

 

[tigerbob]

So sad that Germany must make a law to FORCE people to believe a myth.

It's like if the USA made a law that people must believe in Bigfoot or Loch Ness

I believe the parallel you are looking for is that it would be like the USA making a law that people must believe Sunni Man.

I would vote for that law!!!

I don't doubt it.

 

[The Rabbi]

So sad that Germany must make a law to FORCE people to believe a myth.

It's like if the USA made a law that people must believe in Bigfoot or Loch Ness

Sometimes you can be a real arsehole Sunni Man!

I would question your use of the word "sometimes."

 

[Polk]

1. The bishop is an idiot.
2. He shouldn't have been fined.

 

[L.K.Eder]

1. The bishop is an idiot.
2. He shouldn't have been fined.

it is the law here in germany, you come here, talk shit about the holocaust, you will pay a fine.

simple rules.

we have a special kind of recent history, we have special laws. tough shit.

 

[Polk]

1. The bishop is an idiot.
2. He shouldn't have been fined.

it is the law here in germany, you come here, talk shit about the holocaust, you will pay a fine.

simple rules.

we have a special kind of recent history, we have special laws. tough shit.

I realize it's the law, and I understand the arguments in favor of the law. I just disagree with the law.

 

[Colin]

1. The bishop is an idiot.
2. He shouldn't have been fined.

it is the law here in germany, you come here, talk shit about the holocaust, you will pay a fine.

simple rules.

we have a special kind of recent history, we have special laws. tough shit.

I realize it's the law, and I understand the arguments in favor of the law. I just disagree with the law.

I'm sure the Germans will lose a lot of sleep.

 

[Sunni Man]

Why do they need such a law?

What are they trying to hide about the so called holocaust??

 

[germanguy]

Why do they need such a law?

What are they trying to hide about the so called holocaust??[/QUOT

Well, actually nothing.
But denying it goes together with an agenda.
People supporting creationism are in general not known to be hardcore atheists, as holocaust deniers are in general neither jews, victims of the holocaust or to be known as being far to the political left.

But have a look at the text of this law:

§ 130 Public Incitement (1985, Revised 1992, 2002, 2005)

(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:
incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or
assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,
shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.

(...)

(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or belittles an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 6 subsection (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.

(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbes the public peace in a manner that assaults the human dignity of the victims by approving of, denying or rendering harmless the violent and arbitrary National Socialist rule shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

So it actually does not punish denying it, but to us this denial as an instrument to
degrade the memory of the victims, or to disturb the public peace by doing so, is to be punished.

You do not like that law ? I do not care. The germans, represented in Parliament have decided to have this law and the
I strongly believe, that any liberty has it´s limit when it is used to do harm or to hurt others.

regards
ze germanguy

 

[Sunni Man]

How would a german citizen, who is not a member of any political party or group,

Be a threat to anyone by saying he denies the official holocaust story?

What harm could he do?

 

[L.K.Eder]

1. The bishop is an idiot.
2. He shouldn't have been fined.

it is the law here in germany, you come here, talk shit about the holocaust, you will pay a fine.

simple rules.

we have a special kind of recent history, we have special laws. tough shit.

I realize it's the law, and I understand the arguments in favor of the law. I just disagree with the law.

i disagree with the law too, but there is nothing to be done. this wound must be given time to heal. a lot of time, meanwhile we have these special sucking rules.

 

[José]

Originally posted by L.K.Eder
i disagree with the law too, but there is nothing to be done. this wound must be given time to heal. a lot of time, meanwhile we have these special sucking rules.

Right on, Eder.

This law is authoritarian to the core. Some would even say it reminds them of the Orwellian "thought crime" although I would say this is quite a stretch.

And you're also right on the money when you say only time will eventually purge this "authoritarian debris" from Germany's legislation.

And time will also lead to something at least a million times more important than this german law:

The peaceful dismantlement of the outcome and mirror image of Nazi Germany:

The jewish racial dictatorship created in Palestine 60 years ago.

 

[germanguy]

Originally posted by L.K.Eder
i disagree with the law too, but there is nothing to be done. this wound must be given time to heal. a lot of time, meanwhile we have these special sucking rules.

Right on, Eder.

This law is authoritarian to the core. Some would even say it reminds them of the Orwellian "thought crime" although I would say this is quite a stretch.

And you're also right on the money when you say only time will eventually purge this "authoritarian debris" from Germany's legislation.

And time will also lead to something at least a million times more important than this german law:

The peaceful dismantlement of the outcome and mirror image of Nazi Germany:

The jewish racial dictatorship created in Palestine 60 years ago.

Just to put it in the right proportion:

The law does not qualify as "orwellian", as it clearly does not aim at thoughts, but at expression in public.
For the latter case, I wholeheartly agree with the law for so long, as Neo-Nazis, self-proclaimed experts etc. use the freedom of speech to:

- degrade victims
- glorify national socialism

they are used to work against the constitutional order.

In this case Art 18 of the German Constitution is applicable:

Art 18
Whoever abuses the freedom of expression, in particular the freedom of the press (paragraph (1) of Article 5), the freedom of teaching (paragraph (3) of Article 5), the freedom of assembly (Article 8), the freedom of association (Article 9), the privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications (Article 10), the rights of property (Article 14), or the right of asylum (Article 16a) in order to combat the free democratic basic order shall forfeit these basic rights. This forfeiture and its extent shall be declared by the Federal Constitutional Court.

Also, the Constitutional Court already has decided, that the above law is compliant with the constitution. This because denying a well-researched and well-proven fact in public, is not covered by the constitution in the case of the holocaust.

To put it otherwise:

To deny that the earth is round, or that the earth does not rotate, has far less political consequences as the denial of the holocaust.

regards
ze germanguy