Brexit busted.

[Drummond]

For as long as we continue to be members, proper control of our borders will never be permitted.

We have got control of our borders. Entering the UK - GOV.UK

And with an EU passport anyone can just walk into the UK. As we have seen recently there are millions of fake passports out there being sold so that terrorists can enter any EU country. The only way to take back control is to leave all the stupid treaties we signed up to and be free of the EU restraints.

But leaving the EU doesn't mean this will happen. You still have the government in charge, and this is a government which wants to stay in the EU, and will be the government that will negotiate the leave.

So, they could essentially sign up to the Schengen Agreement in order to get trade much easier. And then it will be WORSE than it is now.

Why people think leaving the EU will somehow magically transform UK immigration policy, I have no idea.

Arguably it will bring the current government down as the Tories are so split on the matter. We may have a new election that creates a government that wants us back in the EU, now that would be embarrassing for us...

I can't really see that happening. Cameron is in too strong a position right now. It might kick off in 2020 when Cameron claims he will stand down as PM and then the infighting over the next leader. See if the Tories can elect someone incompetent enough to lose to the dross Labour keep putting up.

Just last week, Cameron made absurdly alarmist claims about the dangers of leaving the EU. Really extreme stuff. Which begs the question ... if leaving the EU is such a 'dire' thing to do, why didn't Cameron just follow the Labour Party's lead, and refuse to even offer a Referendum ??

After all, aren't Governments meant to serve the best interests of their countries ? If Cameron's to be believed, he chose to allow a possibility of severe harm befalling us !

What I think is that Cameron offering a Referendum is what swung the last election for him into an outright Conservative win. Which says one thing .... there are a very great number of people out there, desperate for the chance of getting shot of the EU !!!

 

[frigidweirdo]

No it isnt. Fear of not being able to pay the rent outweighs fear of some notional bogeyman every time. Apart from in your head obviously.

Then you obviously don't read the news, as this is always the top worry in peoples minds, the problems of immigrats taking over and forcing the nation to be just like the place they fled from.

The papers are owned by brexit loving tax dodgers. Of course they will play the race card.

You sound just like an islamionazi propagandist. So how about a link to prove your fantasy claim then ?

The Express is the most vocal of the anti-EU papers. Owned by Richard Desmond.

Row over Express chief's tax avoidance

"Row over Express chief's tax avoidance"

"New Express owner Richard Desmond's huge publishing and TV sex empire has paid just £200,000 in corporation tax since it was established eight years ago, The Observer can reveal."

Even if any of that is true ... what does it have to do with the merits, or otherwise, of Brexit ??

If you have to divert away from direct issues to do with Brexit to try a smear tactic, instead .. what does that say about the lack of actual case you can offer on the pro-EU side ?

Here's what it has to do with it.

A person who earns 15,000 pounds a year, will save 7 pounds a year from leaving the EU. A person who earns like 30,000 will save maybe 30 pounds a year.

For most British people, leaving the EU won't save them much.

Take into account the drop in the pound as soon as a victory for Brexit would be confirmed, and your savings have gone out of the window, unless of course you don't buy anything from abroad, and don't go abroad.

Then take into account the drop in trade, and the costs for more people unemployed, and less people paying taxes, and your average Joe is going to lose out.

Who stands to gain? People who run businesses which are only UK focused. Weatherspoons, for example. Rich people stand to save a lot more money than poor people.

That's what it has to do with it.

 

[frigidweirdo]

We have got control of our borders. Entering the UK - GOV.UK

And with an EU passport anyone can just walk into the UK. As we have seen recently there are millions of fake passports out there being sold so that terrorists can enter any EU country. The only way to take back control is to leave all the stupid treaties we signed up to and be free of the EU restraints.

But leaving the EU doesn't mean this will happen. You still have the government in charge, and this is a government which wants to stay in the EU, and will be the government that will negotiate the leave.

So, they could essentially sign up to the Schengen Agreement in order to get trade much easier. And then it will be WORSE than it is now.

Why people think leaving the EU will somehow magically transform UK immigration policy, I have no idea.

Arguably it will bring the current government down as the Tories are so split on the matter. We may have a new election that creates a government that wants us back in the EU, now that would be embarrassing for us...

I can't really see that happening. Cameron is in too strong a position right now. It might kick off in 2020 when Cameron claims he will stand down as PM and then the infighting over the next leader. See if the Tories can elect someone incompetent enough to lose to the dross Labour keep putting up.

Just last week, Cameron made absurdly alarmist claims about the dangers of leaving the EU. Really extreme stuff. Which begs the question ... if leaving the EU is such a 'dire' thing to do, why didn't Cameron just follow the Labour Party's lead, and refuse to even offer a Referendum ??

After all, aren't Governments meant to serve the best interests of their countries ? If Cameron's to be believed, he chose to allow a possibility of severe harm befalling us !

What I think is that Cameron offering a Referendum is what swung the last election for him into an outright Conservative win. Which says one thing .... there are a very great number of people out there, desperate for the chance of getting shot of the EU !!!

Cameron is just playing the game.

The Brexit side isn't coming up with anything realistic, just things like "Churchill's bust have moved in the White House, don't listen to Obama, he's anti-British" and "Churchill would have voted to leave" and other such nonsense that is only emotional. So, Cameron is playing the same game as Brexit, and now you don't like it, huh?

 

[Drummond]

Then you obviously don't read the news, as this is always the top worry in peoples minds, the problems of immigrats taking over and forcing the nation to be just like the place they fled from.

The papers are owned by brexit loving tax dodgers. Of course they will play the race card.

You sound just like an islamionazi propagandist. So how about a link to prove your fantasy claim then ?

The Express is the most vocal of the anti-EU papers. Owned by Richard Desmond.

Row over Express chief's tax avoidance

"Row over Express chief's tax avoidance"

"New Express owner Richard Desmond's huge publishing and TV sex empire has paid just £200,000 in corporation tax since it was established eight years ago, The Observer can reveal."

Even if any of that is true ... what does it have to do with the merits, or otherwise, of Brexit ??

If you have to divert away from direct issues to do with Brexit to try a smear tactic, instead .. what does that say about the lack of actual case you can offer on the pro-EU side ?

Here's what it has to do with it.

A person who earns 15,000 pounds a year, will save 7 pounds a year from leaving the EU. A person who earns like 30,000 will save maybe 30 pounds a year.

For most British people, leaving the EU won't save them much.

Take into account the drop in the pound as soon as a victory for Brexit would be confirmed, and your savings have gone out of the window, unless of course you don't buy anything from abroad, and don't go abroad.

Then take into account the drop in trade, and the costs for more people unemployed, and less people paying taxes, and your average Joe is going to lose out.

Who stands to gain? People who run businesses which are only UK focused. Weatherspoons, for example. Rich people stand to save a lot more money than poor people.

That's what it has to do with it.

I see. OK, thanks for that reply.

But I'm still struck by the weakness of your argument otherwise. Those things you cite as concerns for what will happen if Brexit occurs ... well, some if not all is mere assumption on your part - you could be wrong. Even if you're not, I see nothing to suggest that the longer-term future for the UK won't be brighter for having left. We'll be free of trade restrictions defined for us by being a part of the EU ... and there's a wider trading and business environment out there than the totality of the EU. Businesses may be (I'm sure they WILL be !) delighted to be free of EU bureaucracy when trading with us in future. Businesses may relocate here, or open up job opportunities here. You can't rule it out. I say that trading opportunities are BIGGER outside of the EU than within it, and we'd be fools to deny ourselves of the opportunities that flow from that.

And ... immigration. Never forget that issue. Having control of our borders just has to be a very big 'plus' ... it's a total outrage that we don't have this right now.

 

[Challenger]

Having control of our borders just has to be a very big 'plus' ... it's a total outrage that we don't have this right now.

We do!

Entering the UK - GOV.UK

Border Force - GOV.UK

What more control do you want?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The papers are owned by brexit loving tax dodgers. Of course they will play the race card.

You sound just like an islamionazi propagandist. So how about a link to prove your fantasy claim then ?

The Express is the most vocal of the anti-EU papers. Owned by Richard Desmond.

Row over Express chief's tax avoidance

"Row over Express chief's tax avoidance"

"New Express owner Richard Desmond's huge publishing and TV sex empire has paid just £200,000 in corporation tax since it was established eight years ago, The Observer can reveal."

Even if any of that is true ... what does it have to do with the merits, or otherwise, of Brexit ??

If you have to divert away from direct issues to do with Brexit to try a smear tactic, instead .. what does that say about the lack of actual case you can offer on the pro-EU side ?

Here's what it has to do with it.

A person who earns 15,000 pounds a year, will save 7 pounds a year from leaving the EU. A person who earns like 30,000 will save maybe 30 pounds a year.

For most British people, leaving the EU won't save them much.

Take into account the drop in the pound as soon as a victory for Brexit would be confirmed, and your savings have gone out of the window, unless of course you don't buy anything from abroad, and don't go abroad.

Then take into account the drop in trade, and the costs for more people unemployed, and less people paying taxes, and your average Joe is going to lose out.

Who stands to gain? People who run businesses which are only UK focused. Weatherspoons, for example. Rich people stand to save a lot more money than poor people.

That's what it has to do with it.

I see. OK, thanks for that reply.

But I'm still struck by the weakness of your argument otherwise. Those things you cite as concerns for what will happen if Brexit occurs ... well, some if not all is mere assumption on your part - you could be wrong. Even if you're not, I see nothing to suggest that the longer-term future for the UK won't be brighter for having left. We'll be free of trade restrictions defined for us by being a part of the EU ... and there's a wider trading and business environment out there than the totality of the EU. Businesses may be (I'm sure they WILL be !) delighted to be free of EU bureaucracy when trading with us in future. Businesses may relocate here, or open up job opportunities here. You can't rule it out. I say that trading opportunities are BIGGER outside of the EU than within it, and we'd be fools to deny ourselves of the opportunities that flow from that.

And ... immigration. Never forget that issue. Having control of our borders just has to be a very big 'plus' ... it's a total outrage that we don't have this right now.

How will the UK be better off?

I can't really see anything.

Yes, the EU is a pain in the ass. However the UK govt is a pain in the ass too. You'd still have the UK govt.

That'd be the UK govt that let in all those people that people hate, not the Poles who seem to work hard and get on with life, but the Pakistanis, the Africans, the Jamaicans among others who people rail against.

 

[Challenger]

We'll be free of trade restrictions defined for us by being a part of the EU

But that will be balanced out as there will be new restrictions trading with the E.U., currently our biggest market. Commonwealth countries we used to trade with have found other markets so I can't see any particularly preferential deals being made there. At the moment we're a nett importer of goods; we don't produce anything anyone else can't produce better or cheaper. Are you saying leaving the E.U. will suddenly create a manufacturing renaissance?

 

[Phoenall]

For as long as we continue to be members, proper control of our borders will never be permitted.

We have got control of our borders. Entering the UK - GOV.UK

And with an EU passport anyone can just walk into the UK. As we have seen recently there are millions of fake passports out there being sold so that terrorists can enter any EU country. The only way to take back control is to leave all the stupid treaties we signed up to and be free of the EU restraints.

But leaving the EU doesn't mean this will happen. You still have the government in charge, and this is a government which wants to stay in the EU, and will be the government that will negotiate the leave.

So, they could essentially sign up to the Schengen Agreement in order to get trade much easier. And then it will be WORSE than it is now.

Why people think leaving the EU will somehow magically transform UK immigration policy, I have no idea.

Not if the politicians value their careers and gold edged pensions, then they will be negotiating to stop the immigration. The very least that would happen would be the European migrants would no longer get any money, education and health care. This would stop them in their tracks and make them start to think about were they can go next. It will also stop the so called refugees from hopping on a train and getting of in London as their passports wont be enough anymore.

 

[Phoenall]

No it isnt. Fear of not being able to pay the rent outweighs fear of some notional bogeyman every time. Apart from in your head obviously.

Then you obviously don't read the news, as this is always the top worry in peoples minds, the problems of immigrats taking over and forcing the nation to be just like the place they fled from.

The papers are owned by brexit loving tax dodgers. Of course they will play the race card.

You sound just like an islamionazi propagandist. So how about a link to prove your fantasy claim then ?

The Express is the most vocal of the anti-EU papers. Owned by Richard Desmond.

Row over Express chief's tax avoidance

"Row over Express chief's tax avoidance"

"New Express owner Richard Desmond's huge publishing and TV sex empire has paid just £200,000 in corporation tax since it was established eight years ago, The Observer can reveal."

EU immigration isn't the problem, tax dodgers are.

Then we will go for them next after we plug the hole allowing child allowance to be paid for children in Poland that have never seen Britain. After them we will be looking at the politicians that have tried to fiddle expences, and take their pensions from them if found guilty

 

[Phoenall]

For as long as we continue to be members, proper control of our borders will never be permitted.

We have got control of our borders. Entering the UK - GOV.UK

And with an EU passport anyone can just walk into the UK. As we have seen recently there are millions of fake passports out there being sold so that terrorists can enter any EU country. The only way to take back control is to leave all the stupid treaties we signed up to and be free of the EU restraints.

But leaving the EU doesn't mean this will happen. You still have the government in charge, and this is a government which wants to stay in the EU, and will be the government that will negotiate the leave.

So, they could essentially sign up to the Schengen Agreement in order to get trade much easier. And then it will be WORSE than it is now.

Why people think leaving the EU will somehow magically transform UK immigration policy, I have no idea.

Arguably it will bring the current government down as the Tories are so split on the matter. We may have a new election that creates a government that wants us back in the EU, now that would be embarrassing for us...

And disastrous for the country as a whole, leaving the neo Marxists out on a limb with no safety net.

All it is at first is a vote by the people, it is not a demand for the government to pull the plug or else. It is a message to the EU that we are not happy with the way they are treating the UK and we will no longer be pushed around. We want out country and laws back in our control, and a level playing field from now on.

 

[Phoenall]

You sound just like an islamionazi propagandist. So how about a link to prove your fantasy claim then ?

The Express is the most vocal of the anti-EU papers. Owned by Richard Desmond.

Row over Express chief's tax avoidance

"Row over Express chief's tax avoidance"

"New Express owner Richard Desmond's huge publishing and TV sex empire has paid just £200,000 in corporation tax since it was established eight years ago, The Observer can reveal."

Even if any of that is true ... what does it have to do with the merits, or otherwise, of Brexit ??

If you have to divert away from direct issues to do with Brexit to try a smear tactic, instead .. what does that say about the lack of actual case you can offer on the pro-EU side ?

Here's what it has to do with it.

A person who earns 15,000 pounds a year, will save 7 pounds a year from leaving the EU. A person who earns like 30,000 will save maybe 30 pounds a year.

For most British people, leaving the EU won't save them much.

Take into account the drop in the pound as soon as a victory for Brexit would be confirmed, and your savings have gone out of the window, unless of course you don't buy anything from abroad, and don't go abroad.

Then take into account the drop in trade, and the costs for more people unemployed, and less people paying taxes, and your average Joe is going to lose out.

Who stands to gain? People who run businesses which are only UK focused. Weatherspoons, for example. Rich people stand to save a lot more money than poor people.

That's what it has to do with it.

I see. OK, thanks for that reply.

But I'm still struck by the weakness of your argument otherwise. Those things you cite as concerns for what will happen if Brexit occurs ... well, some if not all is mere assumption on your part - you could be wrong. Even if you're not, I see nothing to suggest that the longer-term future for the UK won't be brighter for having left. We'll be free of trade restrictions defined for us by being a part of the EU ... and there's a wider trading and business environment out there than the totality of the EU. Businesses may be (I'm sure they WILL be !) delighted to be free of EU bureaucracy when trading with us in future. Businesses may relocate here, or open up job opportunities here. You can't rule it out. I say that trading opportunities are BIGGER outside of the EU than within it, and we'd be fools to deny ourselves of the opportunities that flow from that.

And ... immigration. Never forget that issue. Having control of our borders just has to be a very big 'plus' ... it's a total outrage that we don't have this right now.

How will the UK be better off?

I can't really see anything.

Yes, the EU is a pain in the ass. However the UK govt is a pain in the ass too. You'd still have the UK govt.

That'd be the UK govt that let in all those people that people hate, not the Poles who seem to work hard and get on with life, but the Pakistanis, the Africans, the Jamaicans among others who people rail against.

And they did not hate any of them until the Pakistanis started to demand more and more while giving less and less. Those are the only people that are hated in the UK, because of their attitude towards the British people.

 

[Phoenall]

We'll be free of trade restrictions defined for us by being a part of the EU

But that will be balanced out as there will be new restrictions trading with the E.U., currently our biggest market. Commonwealth countries we used to trade with have found other markets so I can't see any particularly preferential deals being made there. At the moment we're a nett importer of goods; we don't produce anything anyone else can't produce better or cheaper. Are you saying leaving the E.U. will suddenly create a manufacturing renaissance?

It is a possibility as we wont be constrained from subsidising companies in the UK, which led to the demise of the steel industry. While Europe threw £billions at their steel industry we were stopped from doing the same. The rules in the EU stopped UK companies from setting lower prices for goods than what the EU companies were charging

 

[montelatici]

Airbus will have to transfer wing production, currently in the UK, to an EU state to avoid customs duties when they transport them to Toulon.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Airbus will have to transfer wing production, currently in the UK, to an EU state to avoid customs duties when they transport them to Toulon.

I have family and friends who work for Airbus. Their managers have written to all of them and pointed this out.
The longer this process goes on the more stressful it is for those who will be directly affected.

 

[Vikrant]

Oh dear, I think I know who you are responding to. I put him on ignore long ago. LOL

He acts as a virtual stress ball.

Are you talking about Phoenail?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Oh dear, I think I know who you are responding to. I put him on ignore long ago. LOL

He acts as a virtual stress ball.

Are you talking about Phoenail?

Yup.
He is a strange one. I dont think he is a bog standard racist. I really believe that he lives in a world of his own.

 

[Vikrant]

Oh dear, I think I know who you are responding to. I put him on ignore long ago. LOL

He acts as a virtual stress ball.

Are you talking about Phoenail?

Yup.
He is a strange one. I dont think he is a bog standard racist. I really believe that he lives in a world of his own.

He definitely necessitates an apology for English education system

(Just a joke)

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Oh dear, I think I know who you are responding to. I put him on ignore long ago. LOL

He acts as a virtual stress ball.

Are you talking about Phoenail?

Yup.
He is a strange one. I dont think he is a bog standard racist. I really believe that he lives in a world of his own.

He definitely necessitates an apology for English education system

(Just a joke)

The thing is....................before the internet there were idiots like him in every village in the country. In the corner of the pub,purple faced and mumbling into their half of warm bitter. Everyone gave him a swerve and life went on. Now he has a platform to spread his nonsense. It cant be good for him or society as a whole.

 

[Drummond]

Oh dear, I think I know who you are responding to. I put him on ignore long ago. LOL

He acts as a virtual stress ball.

Are you talking about Phoenail?

Yup.
He is a strange one. I dont think he is a bog standard racist. I really believe that he lives in a world of his own.

He definitely necessitates an apology for English education system

(Just a joke)

The thing is....................before the internet there were idiots like him in every village in the country. In the corner of the pub,purple faced and mumbling into their half of warm bitter. Everyone gave him a swerve and life went on. Now he has a platform to spread his nonsense. It cant be good for him or society as a whole.

What ... you mean, like peddling Leftieism .. ??

 

[frigidweirdo]

For as long as we continue to be members, proper control of our borders will never be permitted.

We have got control of our borders. Entering the UK - GOV.UK

And with an EU passport anyone can just walk into the UK. As we have seen recently there are millions of fake passports out there being sold so that terrorists can enter any EU country. The only way to take back control is to leave all the stupid treaties we signed up to and be free of the EU restraints.

But leaving the EU doesn't mean this will happen. You still have the government in charge, and this is a government which wants to stay in the EU, and will be the government that will negotiate the leave.

So, they could essentially sign up to the Schengen Agreement in order to get trade much easier. And then it will be WORSE than it is now.

Why people think leaving the EU will somehow magically transform UK immigration policy, I have no idea.

Not if the politicians value their careers and gold edged pensions, then they will be negotiating to stop the immigration. The very least that would happen would be the European migrants would no longer get any money, education and health care. This would stop them in their tracks and make them start to think about were they can go next. It will also stop the so called refugees from hopping on a train and getting of in London as their passports wont be enough anymore.

Again, I think you're wrong.

Welfare could be dealt with internally. The fact that people can come to the UK and get on welfare quickly is a sign that the welfare system isn't working properly. Leaving the EU doesn't necessarily change this. For two reason, the first being that the UK government COULD join the Schengen Zone, and then what? Then the second reason would be that anyone coming in could end up on welfare anyway.

As for education, well any child will get a free education at the point of delivery in the UK, this is UK policy and isn't about to change any time soon. It's been policy for like a century.

Healthcare, again healthcare is free at the point of delivery, this isn't going to change any time soon.

So, you leave the EU, then you're in the hands of the UK government, and you're expecting the UK to do what exactly? Every UK government for the last four decades has supported being in the EU. They've supported closer ties, and this is what the UK has.
If the UK leaves and Cameron is the PM, what says to you that he's not going to try and get a deal which allows for freedom of movement of EU citizens, like the Swiss and Norwegians have?