Breaking: Obama To Address Nation Tonight. Will Bypass Congress & Invoke 14th Amendmt

[shintao]

Provide any evidence of your claim. As to the President, he has no power to raise the debt limit, that is solely a function of Congress, and specifically must originate in the House. The 14th Amendment provides no Constitutional authority for him to usurp the Power of Congress.

Which claim?

Reagan violated the Constitution at least twice, seriously, with Iran Contra.

Bush violated the Constitution with his order to torture prisoners, suspending Habeas on both foreign and domestic captures and easedropping on private citizens.

And the 14th..

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

That basically covers it. But it's doubtful that he would use it until after August 2nd.

Reagan was NEVER connected to Iran Contra even after the Dems in Congress claimed they could. Further Iran Contra was not a violation of Congressional orders.

Weapons were sold to Israel legally. Israel sold said weapons through private citizens and gave the money to Oliver North and Admiral Pointdexter. Once Israel took possession of said weapons what happened to them and any money generated by Israel no longer belongs to the US Government. If a foreign Government donates money to pay for something then the order by Congress that no tax payers money be used is not violated.

As for Bush he ordered no torture. Waterboarding which is the only claim you have to torture, was not illegal until Holder made it so in 2009. In fact it was practiced on our own troops in training cycles.

Rewrite of History. Did you author the book, "The Other America?"

 

[Sallow]

What on Earth does Iran Contra have to do with the debt ceiling?

Something about violating the Constitution and conservatives not caring when a Republican President does it.

 

[MaggieMae]

If Obama does what is claimed and it stands we can forget about a three tiered Government and a Republic. The Constitution will be useless. If the Democrats support this they are fomenting rebellion. If the House Impeaches and the Senate does not convict our Government is a shame.

An armed insurgency against the US government is precisely what you right-wing extremists are itching for. Well the rest of us are ready, and we would soon find out who the traitors really are.

Section 3 of the Constitution defines treason as ~~
“Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court..."

The Supreme Court ruled that there must be an actual assembling of men, for the treasonable purpose, to constitute a levying of war.

I called no one a traitor. Or perhaps you could highlight that part. I stated that if Obama does this is Impeached and the Senate does not convict our Constitution is null and void. And that the Democrats that support him are fomenting rebellion by openly violating the US Constitution.

The only way a president can be impeached is for treason or that vague clause "high crimes and misdemeanors." Since none of the actions here would constitute a "high crime" nor a "misdemeanor" crime, then you obviously must have been referring to treason.

I suggest you actually study the Constitution some day. Soon.

 

[boedicca]

What on Earth does Iran Contra have to do with the debt ceiling?

Something about violating the Constitution and conservatives not caring when a Republican President does it.

And yet you're fine with Obama violating it.

Got it.

 

[MaggieMae]

He TAUGHT constitutional law. I'm sure he understands if FAR better than Palin, Bachmann, and the so-called tea party purists who are always spouting off.

Are you sure he taught it?

I'd like to see his lecture notes about how the 57 states apportion house seats and electoral votes.

Yes, let's impeach him for a slip of the tongue.

Idiot.

 

[MaggieMae]

The 14th threat could just be maniacal posturing but I wouldn't be surprised if BO would actually attempt to pull such a stunt...especially if he can't sweep the debt problem under the rug till after 2012 elections...

And yet you people fail to see that the Republicans are USING the debt problem for campaign posturing for 2012.

The debt ceiling has been raised 74 times since 1962. The debt ceiling tripled under Ronald Reagan, and Congress also raised taxes 11 times for him. Republicans voted seven times to raise the debt ceiling for George W. Bush.

was the debt at such a high percentage of GDP any other time?

Is that a Constitutional consideration?

 

[Sallow]

What on Earth does Iran Contra have to do with the debt ceiling?

Something about violating the Constitution and conservatives not caring when a Republican President does it.

And yet you're fine with Obama violating it.

Got it.

Let me know when he violates it.

Or gets a blowjob from an intern. Something else Republicans hold as grounds for impeachment. (Well actually constitutional violations don't count to a conservative if you are a Republican with good hair)

 

[RetiredGySgt]

An armed insurgency against the US government is precisely what you right-wing extremists are itching for. Well the rest of us are ready, and we would soon find out who the traitors really are.

Section 3 of the Constitution defines treason as ~~
“Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court..."

The Supreme Court ruled that there must be an actual assembling of men, for the treasonable purpose, to constitute a levying of war.

I called no one a traitor. Or perhaps you could highlight that part. I stated that if Obama does this is Impeached and the Senate does not convict our Constitution is null and void. And that the Democrats that support him are fomenting rebellion by openly violating the US Constitution.

The only way a president can be impeached is for treason or that vague clause "high crimes and misdemeanors." Since none of the actions here would constitute a "high crime" nor a "misdemeanor" crime, then you obviously must have been referring to treason.

I suggest you actually study the Constitution some day. Soon.

You are the dumb one. If a President willfully violates the Constitution that most assuredly IS High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

 

[uscitizen]

What on Earth does Iran Contra have to do with the debt ceiling?

you got me, I missed how that came in.

 

[uscitizen]

What on Earth does Iran Contra have to do with the debt ceiling?

Something about violating the Constitution and conservatives not caring when a Republican President does it.

Ohh thanks.
Well anyone with half a brain knows that republicans are only violating the constitution for the betterment of America.

That is anyone with only half a brain

 

[MaggieMae]

You are wrong. The US Government CAN still pay the debt without a raise in the debt ceiling. Further the 14th does not say the Government MUST pay it says they may not deny the debt.

If Obama does this he is usurping the power of Congress and that is Unconstitutional.

Are you a member of the United States Supreme Court?

Did you bother to read the 14th? It leaves to Congress the power to enforce it NOT the President. SO even if it did ( and it does not) say what you claim, it delegates the power BACK to Congress. Once again if Obama attempts to usurp powers granted by the Constitution to the Congress he is in direct violation of the Constitution. AN Impeachable offense that is sustained by his own public actions. If the Senate refused to vote guilty then those so voting would be supporting the violation of the Constitution. Our Government would cease to be a Republic and would no longer be of the people.

Well if you want to get even pickier, the president has the option of vetoing any bill enacted by Congress. It would then take a 2/3 majority to overturn the veto. Yeah, let's go there while unemployment continues its slog the vast majority of Americans could really give a sweet shit about the debt limit and want those idiots in Congress (and private sector) to start doing something about the overall economy. Who do you think will get blamed for political stalling and creating gridlock? Again. The president? Think again.

 

[Jarhead]

And yet you people fail to see that the Republicans are USING the debt problem for campaign posturing for 2012.

The debt ceiling has been raised 74 times since 1962. The debt ceiling tripled under Ronald Reagan, and Congress also raised taxes 11 times for him. Republicans voted seven times to raise the debt ceiling for George W. Bush.

was the debt at such a high percentage of GDP any other time?

Is that a Constitutional consideration?

why the diversion?
Insecure about your position in the debate?

No one is saying it is unconstitutional for congress to raise the debt ceiling.

I commented on your post about how often the debt ceiling was raised by congress...

And my comment was a legit question.....

But I will ask it this way...

All of those othere times that the debt ceiling was raised....was it at a time where:

1) the existing debt was such a high percentage of our GDP
2) our exiosting debt increased at such a high rate

 

[Conservative]

You might wanna check out section 5 of that amendment.

section 5 states: The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

I'm not sure I follow the relevance of that section, or ANY section of the 14th, to the possibility of the President authorizing an increase in the debt ceiling without congress.

The "debt" obviously is larger than the "revenue" we currently have in the Treasury to continue to pay for EXISTING debt. Therefore, legally, in order to not default on that EXISTING debt, the ceiling must be raised. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "new" debt. Nothing, nada, zip.

It's as it you went over the credit limit on your credit card. You still have to pay those extra charges, but you would be cut off from charging anything further. That is ALL raising the debt "ceiling" does too.

i get all that. I guess I am taking the 14th too literally then...

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.
So far, so good. I understand this.

But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
This is where I think people are hung up, and where I don't see the relevance. It specifically discusses debt which is 'incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States' or 'any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave'.

I read the next line 'all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void' to mean specifically those instance mentioned within the section...

'incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave', and ONLY for these types of debt.

Again, maybe I am being too literal?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Are you a member of the United States Supreme Court?

Did you bother to read the 14th? It leaves to Congress the power to enforce it NOT the President. SO even if it did ( and it does not) say what you claim, it delegates the power BACK to Congress. Once again if Obama attempts to usurp powers granted by the Constitution to the Congress he is in direct violation of the Constitution. AN Impeachable offense that is sustained by his own public actions. If the Senate refused to vote guilty then those so voting would be supporting the violation of the Constitution. Our Government would cease to be a Republic and would no longer be of the people.

Well if you want to get even pickier, the president has the option of vetoing any bill enacted by Congress. It would then take a 2/3 majority to overturn the veto. Yeah, let's go there while unemployment continues its slog the vast majority of Americans could really give a sweet shit about the debt limit and want those idiots in Congress (and private sector) to start doing something about the overall economy. Who do you think will get blamed for political stalling and creating gridlock? Again. The president? Think again.

So you don't mind if Obama shreds the Constitution cause you like his ideas. Got it.

 

[Sallow]

So you don't mind if Obama shreds the Constitution cause you like his ideas. Got it.

So Sarge..still holding that Reagan wasn't involved even though he admitted that he was involved?

Man..Plausible deniability is a great thing!

 

[USArmyRetired]

Breaking News. This just in.


Speaker John Boehner will go on National TV In A Rebuttal Speech Right After The Presidents Speech

 

[MaggieMae]

Read the powers of the branches of Government. Only Congress has the power to incur debt for the Government.

I don't think raising the ceiling is incurring debt. I think it is subjective. I get credit card offers in the mail everyday. It's up to me (Congress) to decide to use them.

However the move as I see it is also political suicide for the President.

Here's where you are incorrect. The U.S. is in the situation of someone who keeps getting new credit cards to pay the interest on his maxed out ones.

Are we broke yet?

How much money is in the federal bank account? These two graphs, updated daily, tell the story. - By Chris Wilson - Slate Magazine

And of course the fact that federal tax receipts are at the lowest level since Harry Truman was president don't fit in your little ejukational pichers.

 

[USArmyRetired]

More Breaking News Just In:


Speech Will Be Just 18 Minutes

Highlights will be according to CNN: President will say:

Number 1. United States Is In Imminent Threat Of Default

Number 2. Congress Has Reached A Stalemate Forcing President To Bypass Congress And Take Matters Into Own Hands

In other words he is fixing to usurp the Constitution just to save his reelection bid for a second term. Wolf Blitzer just stated this is a serious dangerous move from the president and will instill fear amongst the American people. This is Wolf saying this now and he is flabbergasted (astonished). Anyone remember the Reichstag Fire and decree Hitler used to his advantage?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Bring it on. Any time and anywhere. Better to be a dead Patriot, than a live slave which is what we're headed towards in this country.

why don't you stfu? it is NEVER right to threaten.. it's so damn indecent and it makes you willfully stupid. If you don't like the country or feel you can't change it politically then move your ass out.

If Obama does what is claimed and it stands we can forget about a three tiered Government and a Republic. The Constitution will be useless. If the Democrats support this they are fomenting rebellion. If the House Impeaches and the Senate does not convict our Government is a shame.

If Obama uses the 14th, then he has to be opposed, politically.

 

[MaggieMae]

This is such a no-brainer, it's shocking that a once respectable publication like The National Journal would even jump into the ridiciculous fray. The 14th amendment REQUIRES that existing debt obligations be paid.

OPERATIVE WORD: EXISTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Here’s what the amendment actually says:

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned...[It goes on to say]...But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."

The Republican talking heads continue to assert that raising the debt ceiling gives the president carte blanche permission to continue to borrow more money—without the approval of Congress—in order to keep paying off past loans. That is NOT the purpose, nor is it what would happen with a one-paragraph bill raising the debt ceiling this time around.

Republicans are insisting on making this political by choosing to incorporate future budget propositions into this singular CONSTITUTIONAL requirement. Enough!!!

For Congress to limit the amount of the FUTURE debt has NOTHING to do with the debt that has been already authorized by law.

You might wanna check out section 5 of that amendment.

Spot on Leweman. Section 5 is the key and if Obama overrides it, then he has usurped the Constitution and will be impeachable. Section 5 states:

[The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.]

This man is actually what our founders warned us about when framing Article 2 Section 1. I am telling you and have been that this man is not Constitutionally eligible to hold the office. The framers specifically drafted Article 2 Sect 1 for allegiance purposes only. That's why they wanted a president who was born a natural born citizen to two U.S. citizen parents where undivided born loyalty to his nation could never be questioned. With Obama being born to a British National father ,which gave him as a child born dual citizenship with allegiance to the British Crown, it is apparent his heart is not devoted to America and its people first, only to himself. That is what founder John Jay (1st Supreme Court Justice) warned George Washington about when framing the constitutions presidential clause, having a president with foreign allegiance. Well, it looks like Jay was right. Obama is going to usurp the 14th amendment in order to try to save his reelection chances first and foremost instead of putting the American people and the nation first. Bypassing Congress is doing just that.

Oh lordy, only a few years ago we had all sorts of right-wing arm-chair warriors telling us all how the Iraq war is going swimmingly and why. Now we've got all sorts of arm-chair lawyers and supreme court justice wannabes interpreting the Constitution for us over a clause that at best been IGNORED by both Republicans and Democrats for decades and at worst is being used now as just one more perceived piece of ammunition against the current president. You people are so transparent it's downright hilarious.