Billy Graham Purchases Ads

[Jimmy_Jam]

There is a great error you and Erroneous Joe make, in believing that we are dealing with a theological issue....rather than a political one.

No one is suggesting a vote for a religious belief...merely the clear choice between the political beliefs of Romney and Obama.

Proof?

Sure.

Name any religious dictum imposed by Romney as governor of Massachusetts.
If you cannot....my premise prevails.

I wasn't questioning Romney, I was questioning Graham. And you're right, it is every bit a political issue. That was my point.

Are you sure?

You did write this: "A Mormon running for President 20 years ago would have been unheard of. I gotta hand it to him, Romney is charming the socks off of mainstream Christianity."


But....I can appreciate one trying to put daylight between their position and that of the bigot Erroneous Joe.

Yes, I'm pretty sure.

Mainstream Christians in the U.S. tend to be Republicans. Romney is, for the most part, winning the support of many mainstream Christians. Billy Graham is helping to sway some of the Christians that do not for religious reasons by simultaneously removing Mormonism from his "cult" list and endorsing Romney. This is fairly academic, yes?

While religion is a factor to the individual voter who votes with Bible in hand, for the GOP it is overtly political, since mainstream Christians are little more than a demographic consideration. If you gain Graham's endorsement, you gain a great number of Christians that may otherwise have objected to you for religious reasons. So, because Graham is a well-established icon to mainstream Christians, Romney is, through him, charming the socks off of mainstream Christianity. It was a potentially enormous political cementing job.

I'm sure there will be a few radical Christians who will still view Romney as the Antichrist, but Graham's endorsement is pretty big. Now, I am a Republican, but not a Christian. Despite this, I think it is a legitimate concern to question the integrity of somebody who is a major spiritual leader, and who is identified primarily by that role, if he would overturn a decades-old religious conviction in favor of his political party. Is his change of heart based upon his spiritual convictions or his party? It could be a combination of the two, but ultimately it is clear that his religious convictions have taken a backseat to party affiliation.

Allow me to use a hypothetical comparison. Bill Maher has repeatedly and consistently bashed Scientology. He is also a liberal. Suppose for a moment that a Scientologist won the Democratic nomination for Presidency. Suppose that the next day, Bill Maher suddenly stopped bashing Scientology and promoted it as a legitimate religious belief. Would you not question his integrity? I suspect you would, and it would be for political, not religious, reasons.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I wasn't questioning Romney, I was questioning Graham. And you're right, it is every bit a political issue. That was my point.

Are you sure?

You did write this: "A Mormon running for President 20 years ago would have been unheard of. I gotta hand it to him, Romney is charming the socks off of mainstream Christianity."


But....I can appreciate one trying to put daylight between their position and that of the bigot Erroneous Joe.

Yes, I'm pretty sure.

Mainstream Christians in the U.S. tend to be Republicans. Romney is, for the most part, winning the support of many mainstream Christians. Billy Graham is helping to sway some of the Christians that do not for religious reasons by simultaneously removing Mormonism from his "cult" list and endorsing Romney. This is fairly academic, yes?

While religion is a factor to the individual voter who votes with Bible in hand, for the GOP it is overtly political, since mainstream Christians are little more than a demographic consideration. If you gain Graham's endorsement, you gain a great number of Christians that may otherwise have objected to you for religious reasons. So, because Graham is a well-established icon to mainstream Christians, Romney is, through him, charming the socks off of mainstream Christianity. It was a potentially enormous political cementing job.

I'm sure there will be a few radical Christians who will still view Romney as the Antichrist, but Graham's endorsement is pretty big. Now, I am a Republican, but not a Christian. Despite this, I think it is a legitimate concern to question the integrity of somebody who is a major spiritual leader, and who is identified primarily by that role, if he would overturn a decades-old religious conviction in favor of his political party. Is his change of heart based upon his spiritual convictions or his party? It could be a combination of the two, but ultimately it is clear that his religious convictions have taken a backseat to party affiliation.

Allow me to use a hypothetical comparison. Bill Maher has repeatedly and consistently bashed Scientology. He is also a liberal. Suppose for a moment that a Scientologist won the Democratic nomination for Presidency. Suppose that the next day, Bill Maher suddenly stopped bashing Scientology and promoted it as a legitimate religious belief. Would you not question his integrity? I suspect you would, and it would be for political, not religious, reasons.

"Allow me to use a hypothetical comparison. Bill Maher has repeatedly and consistently bashed Scientology. He is also a liberal. Suppose for a moment that a Scientologist won the Democratic nomination for Presidency. Suppose that the next day, Bill Maher suddenly stopped bashing Scientology and promoted it as a legitimate religious belief. Would you not question his integrity? I suspect you would, and it would be for political, not religious, reasons."

No, no, no, JJ....


Very poor comparison.

An accuratate one would be the following: we regularly use Arabic numerals. Would we stop doing so as a result of 9/11?


You see, the numbers retain their validity, as does the message delivered by Graham.
Who the messenger is has no bearing.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Are you sure?

You did write this: "A Mormon running for President 20 years ago would have been unheard of. I gotta hand it to him, Romney is charming the socks off of mainstream Christianity."


But....I can appreciate one trying to put daylight between their position and that of the bigot Erroneous Joe.

Yes, I'm pretty sure.

Mainstream Christians in the U.S. tend to be Republicans. Romney is, for the most part, winning the support of many mainstream Christians. Billy Graham is helping to sway some of the Christians that do not for religious reasons by simultaneously removing Mormonism from his "cult" list and endorsing Romney. This is fairly academic, yes?

While religion is a factor to the individual voter who votes with Bible in hand, for the GOP it is overtly political, since mainstream Christians are little more than a demographic consideration. If you gain Graham's endorsement, you gain a great number of Christians that may otherwise have objected to you for religious reasons. So, because Graham is a well-established icon to mainstream Christians, Romney is, through him, charming the socks off of mainstream Christianity. It was a potentially enormous political cementing job.

I'm sure there will be a few radical Christians who will still view Romney as the Antichrist, but Graham's endorsement is pretty big. Now, I am a Republican, but not a Christian. Despite this, I think it is a legitimate concern to question the integrity of somebody who is a major spiritual leader, and who is identified primarily by that role, if he would overturn a decades-old religious conviction in favor of his political party. Is his change of heart based upon his spiritual convictions or his party? It could be a combination of the two, but ultimately it is clear that his religious convictions have taken a backseat to party affiliation.

Allow me to use a hypothetical comparison. Bill Maher has repeatedly and consistently bashed Scientology. He is also a liberal. Suppose for a moment that a Scientologist won the Democratic nomination for Presidency. Suppose that the next day, Bill Maher suddenly stopped bashing Scientology and promoted it as a legitimate religious belief. Would you not question his integrity? I suspect you would, and it would be for political, not religious, reasons.

"Allow me to use a hypothetical comparison. Bill Maher has repeatedly and consistently bashed Scientology. He is also a liberal. Suppose for a moment that a Scientologist won the Democratic nomination for Presidency. Suppose that the next day, Bill Maher suddenly stopped bashing Scientology and promoted it as a legitimate religious belief. Would you not question his integrity? I suspect you would, and it would be for political, not religious, reasons."

No, no, no, JJ....


Very poor comparison.

An accuratate one would be the following: we regularly use Arabic numerals. Would we stop doing so as a result of 9/11?


You see, the numbers retain their validity, as does the message delivered by Graham.
Who the messenger is has no bearing.

I didn't mind much your questioning. I thought we were on to a very nice and productive debate there for a minute. I do not in any way get your comparison. Please explain.

My comparison is valid in that it demonstrates a long-held moral or ideological position that is changed in support of a political candidate. It really is as simple as that.

It's not the end of the world. Ultimately it doesn't bother me much that he did it. He can do whatever he wants, and for whatever reasons he wants. It is a political move, and I am calling it such, just as you seem to be calling it such. People do it all the time, whether they admit to it or not. I am a Republican, but not a Christian. I am at odds with the predominant Republican who IS Christian. I'm okay with that. I am still going to predominantly support Republican candidates despite that because of a larger political picture. That is essentially what Graham is doing. I don't have a problem with that, per se.

The integrity issue comes in when he coincidentally changes his posture on a belief that Mormonism is a cult. Suddenly it is not. That makes his integrity questionable. Had he simply endorsed Romney with the position of "I don't agree with Mormonism but I am endorsing Romney for the bigger political picture," then fine, but by also changing his position on something he has been pretty serious about for decades calls his integrity into question. That's really all I am saying.

Hey, this is my issue with the man, and I'm simply offering my perspective. It doesn't have to be yours or anybody else's. I don't mind you questioning me at all. However, if my hypothetical comparison is not appropriate, how so?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Yes, I'm pretty sure.

Mainstream Christians in the U.S. tend to be Republicans. Romney is, for the most part, winning the support of many mainstream Christians. Billy Graham is helping to sway some of the Christians that do not for religious reasons by simultaneously removing Mormonism from his "cult" list and endorsing Romney. This is fairly academic, yes?

While religion is a factor to the individual voter who votes with Bible in hand, for the GOP it is overtly political, since mainstream Christians are little more than a demographic consideration. If you gain Graham's endorsement, you gain a great number of Christians that may otherwise have objected to you for religious reasons. So, because Graham is a well-established icon to mainstream Christians, Romney is, through him, charming the socks off of mainstream Christianity. It was a potentially enormous political cementing job.

I'm sure there will be a few radical Christians who will still view Romney as the Antichrist, but Graham's endorsement is pretty big. Now, I am a Republican, but not a Christian. Despite this, I think it is a legitimate concern to question the integrity of somebody who is a major spiritual leader, and who is identified primarily by that role, if he would overturn a decades-old religious conviction in favor of his political party. Is his change of heart based upon his spiritual convictions or his party? It could be a combination of the two, but ultimately it is clear that his religious convictions have taken a backseat to party affiliation.

Allow me to use a hypothetical comparison. Bill Maher has repeatedly and consistently bashed Scientology. He is also a liberal. Suppose for a moment that a Scientologist won the Democratic nomination for Presidency. Suppose that the next day, Bill Maher suddenly stopped bashing Scientology and promoted it as a legitimate religious belief. Would you not question his integrity? I suspect you would, and it would be for political, not religious, reasons.

"Allow me to use a hypothetical comparison. Bill Maher has repeatedly and consistently bashed Scientology. He is also a liberal. Suppose for a moment that a Scientologist won the Democratic nomination for Presidency. Suppose that the next day, Bill Maher suddenly stopped bashing Scientology and promoted it as a legitimate religious belief. Would you not question his integrity? I suspect you would, and it would be for political, not religious, reasons."

No, no, no, JJ....


Very poor comparison.

An accuratate one would be the following: we regularly use Arabic numerals. Would we stop doing so as a result of 9/11?


You see, the numbers retain their validity, as does the message delivered by Graham.
Who the messenger is has no bearing.

I didn't mind much your questioning. I thought we were on to a very nice and productive debate there for a minute. I do not in any way get your comparison. Please explain.

My comparison is valid in that it demonstrates a long-held moral or ideological position that is changed in support of a political candidate. It really is as simple as that.

It's not the end of the world. Ultimately it doesn't bother me much that he did it. He can do whatever he wants, and for whatever reasons he wants. It is a political move, and I am calling it such, just as you seem to be calling it such. People do it all the time, whether they admit to it or not. I am a Republican, but not a Christian. I am at odds with the predominant Republican who IS Christian. I'm okay with that. I am still going to predominantly support Republican candidates despite that because of a larger political picture. That is essentially what Graham is doing. I don't have a problem with that, per se.

The integrity issue comes in when he coincidentally changes his posture on a belief that Mormonism is a cult. Suddenly it is not. That makes his integrity questionable. Had he simply endorsed Romney with the position of "I don't agree with Mormonism but I am endorsing Romney for the bigger political picture," then fine, but by also changing his position on something he has been pretty serious about for decades calls his integrity into question. That's really all I am saying.

Hey, this is my issue with the man, and I'm simply offering my perspective. It doesn't have to be yours or anybody else's. I don't mind you questioning me at all. However, if my hypothetical comparison is not appropriate, how so?

Maher would be responding to policies, not religious doctrines.

In my example, we would consider Arabic numerals as retaining their usefulness, no matter the actions of members of the group.


Graham has nothing to do with the validity of his message....
You may claim that those who respect him will vote as he suggests because of Graham, without reference to the validity of the message, but that is only tangentially connected to the question.


Consider this as his message: 45+20=65.
Does the rectitude depend on the messenger?

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

"Allow me to use a hypothetical comparison. Bill Maher has repeatedly and consistently bashed Scientology. He is also a liberal. Suppose for a moment that a Scientologist won the Democratic nomination for Presidency. Suppose that the next day, Bill Maher suddenly stopped bashing Scientology and promoted it as a legitimate religious belief. Would you not question his integrity? I suspect you would, and it would be for political, not religious, reasons."

No, no, no, JJ....


Very poor comparison.

An accuratate one would be the following: we regularly use Arabic numerals. Would we stop doing so as a result of 9/11?


You see, the numbers retain their validity, as does the message delivered by Graham.
Who the messenger is has no bearing.

I didn't mind much your questioning. I thought we were on to a very nice and productive debate there for a minute. I do not in any way get your comparison. Please explain.

My comparison is valid in that it demonstrates a long-held moral or ideological position that is changed in support of a political candidate. It really is as simple as that.

It's not the end of the world. Ultimately it doesn't bother me much that he did it. He can do whatever he wants, and for whatever reasons he wants. It is a political move, and I am calling it such, just as you seem to be calling it such. People do it all the time, whether they admit to it or not. I am a Republican, but not a Christian. I am at odds with the predominant Republican who IS Christian. I'm okay with that. I am still going to predominantly support Republican candidates despite that because of a larger political picture. That is essentially what Graham is doing. I don't have a problem with that, per se.

The integrity issue comes in when he coincidentally changes his posture on a belief that Mormonism is a cult. Suddenly it is not. That makes his integrity questionable. Had he simply endorsed Romney with the position of "I don't agree with Mormonism but I am endorsing Romney for the bigger political picture," then fine, but by also changing his position on something he has been pretty serious about for decades calls his integrity into question. That's really all I am saying.

Hey, this is my issue with the man, and I'm simply offering my perspective. It doesn't have to be yours or anybody else's. I don't mind you questioning me at all. However, if my hypothetical comparison is not appropriate, how so?

Maher would be responding to policies, not religious doctrines.

In my example, we would consider Arabic numerals as retaining their usefulness, no matter the actions of members of the group.


Graham has nothing to do with the validity of his message....
You may claim that those who respect him will vote as he suggests because of Graham, without reference to the validity of the message, but that is only tangentially connected to the question.


Consider this as his message: 45+20=65.
Does the rectitude depend on the messenger?

Since this thread is largely op-ed in nature, I will say that I believe Graham has quite a bit to do with it.

There are numbers of people who will vote based on his endorsement. If it were simply the message, then I could deliver the same message, and nobody would be swayed by it, because who am I? I'm just a schmoe with no popular or political clout who posts on a website along with a bunch of other schmoes. But Graham, he's practically God's right hand man, right?

I don't lose respect for him because he endorses Romney, I lose respect for his character because he is reversing a religious belief in support of a political candidate, in an effort to sway Christian voters who up to that point would have said "hey, Graham says Mormonism is a cult, so I'm not too sure about this guy."

I'll use myself as an example instead of Maher. I tend to support Republican candidates more so than Democratic ones because of a fundamental political approach. There are some issues that many Republicans pin their religious convictions on, and I simply don't share that with them. For example, the lack of Christian representation in public schools doesn't really bother me. I think the Supreme Court has ruled pretty well in most respects of state endorsement of religion, and I don't care much about the perceived "attack on Christianity" that the far religious right believe is going on, and even if there is somewhat of an attack, I don't believe anything tragic has happened.

If I vote for Romney, that doesn't suddenly make me start advocating school prayer, now does it? I would be doing so out of interest for a bigger political picture, but I'm not changing anything about myself, and I am being very honest about it. Now, if I simultaneously start saying that I believe in mandatory school prayer even though I have said for decades that I don't, then I have an integrity issue. I may have changed my stance for personal reasons, but I would be a rightful target for anybody who would want to give me flack over it.

If the message were all that mattered, then Graham would not have had to worry about removing Mormonism from his list of cults. The political maneuver demanded that he do it. The moment he did it, he transitioned from "religious figure with political ties" to a firmly political figure. Ultimately it's a speck on the radar. When Vatican II happened, there was some stink, but the Catholic Church made the transition. The same will happen here if Romney wins. A religion that has been considered a religious cult for many decades among mainstream Christians will find themselves suddenly in the club.

Essentially, Graham has conceded a position long held.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I didn't mind much your questioning. I thought we were on to a very nice and productive debate there for a minute. I do not in any way get your comparison. Please explain.

My comparison is valid in that it demonstrates a long-held moral or ideological position that is changed in support of a political candidate. It really is as simple as that.

It's not the end of the world. Ultimately it doesn't bother me much that he did it. He can do whatever he wants, and for whatever reasons he wants. It is a political move, and I am calling it such, just as you seem to be calling it such. People do it all the time, whether they admit to it or not. I am a Republican, but not a Christian. I am at odds with the predominant Republican who IS Christian. I'm okay with that. I am still going to predominantly support Republican candidates despite that because of a larger political picture. That is essentially what Graham is doing. I don't have a problem with that, per se.

The integrity issue comes in when he coincidentally changes his posture on a belief that Mormonism is a cult. Suddenly it is not. That makes his integrity questionable. Had he simply endorsed Romney with the position of "I don't agree with Mormonism but I am endorsing Romney for the bigger political picture," then fine, but by also changing his position on something he has been pretty serious about for decades calls his integrity into question. That's really all I am saying.

Hey, this is my issue with the man, and I'm simply offering my perspective. It doesn't have to be yours or anybody else's. I don't mind you questioning me at all. However, if my hypothetical comparison is not appropriate, how so?

Maher would be responding to policies, not religious doctrines.

In my example, we would consider Arabic numerals as retaining their usefulness, no matter the actions of members of the group.


Graham has nothing to do with the validity of his message....
You may claim that those who respect him will vote as he suggests because of Graham, without reference to the validity of the message, but that is only tangentially connected to the question.


Consider this as his message: 45+20=65.
Does the rectitude depend on the messenger?

Since this thread is largely op-ed in nature, I will say that I believe Graham has quite a bit to do with it.

There are numbers of people who will vote based on his endorsement. If it were simply the message, then I could deliver the same message, and nobody would be swayed by it, because who am I? I'm just a schmoe with no popular or political clout who posts on a website along with a bunch of other schmoes. But Graham, he's practically God's right hand man, right?

I don't lose respect for him because he endorses Romney, I lose respect for his character because he is reversing a religious belief in support of a political candidate, in an effort to sway Christian voters who up to that point would have said "hey, Graham says Mormonism is a cult, so I'm not too sure about this guy."

I'll use myself as an example instead of Maher. I tend to support Republican candidates more so than Democratic ones because of a fundamental political approach. There are some issues that many Republicans pin their religious convictions on, and I simply don't share that with them. For example, the lack of Christian representation in public schools doesn't really bother me. I think the Supreme Court has ruled pretty well in most respects of state endorsement of religion, and I don't care much about the perceived "attack on Christianity" that the far religious right believe is going on, and even if there is somewhat of an attack, I don't believe anything tragic has happened.

If I vote for Romney, that doesn't suddenly make me start advocating school prayer, now does it? I would be doing so out of interest for a bigger political picture, but I'm not changing anything about myself, and I am being very honest about it. Now, if I simultaneously start saying that I believe in mandatory school prayer even though I have said for decades that I don't, then I have an integrity issue. I may have changed my stance for personal reasons, but I would be a rightful target for anybody who would want to give me flack over it.

If the message were all that mattered, then Graham would not have had to worry about removing Mormonism from his list of cults. The political maneuver demanded that he do it. The moment he did it, he transitioned from "religious figure with political ties" to a firmly political figure. Ultimately it's a speck on the radar. When Vatican II happened, there was some stink, but the Catholic Church made the transition. The same will happen here if Romney wins. A religion that has been considered a religious cult for many decades among mainstream Christians will find themselves suddenly in the club.

Essentially, Graham has conceded a position long held.

1. Do you have an opinion of the message?

2.I'd like to take you up on this tangent:
"If I vote for Romney, that doesn't suddenly make me start advocating school prayer, now does it? I would be doing so out of interest for a bigger political picture, but I'm not changing anything about myself, and I am being very honest about it. Now, if I simultaneously start saying that I believe in mandatory school prayer even though I have said for decades that I don't, then I have an integrity issue. I may have changed my stance for personal reasons, but I would be a rightful target for anybody who would want to give me flack over it.

Are you conflating 'school prayer,' which I endorse, with 'mandatory school prayer,' which no one endorses?
Was that by accident?

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Maher would be responding to policies, not religious doctrines.

In my example, we would consider Arabic numerals as retaining their usefulness, no matter the actions of members of the group.


Graham has nothing to do with the validity of his message....
You may claim that those who respect him will vote as he suggests because of Graham, without reference to the validity of the message, but that is only tangentially connected to the question.


Consider this as his message: 45+20=65.
Does the rectitude depend on the messenger?

Since this thread is largely op-ed in nature, I will say that I believe Graham has quite a bit to do with it.

There are numbers of people who will vote based on his endorsement. If it were simply the message, then I could deliver the same message, and nobody would be swayed by it, because who am I? I'm just a schmoe with no popular or political clout who posts on a website along with a bunch of other schmoes. But Graham, he's practically God's right hand man, right?

I don't lose respect for him because he endorses Romney, I lose respect for his character because he is reversing a religious belief in support of a political candidate, in an effort to sway Christian voters who up to that point would have said "hey, Graham says Mormonism is a cult, so I'm not too sure about this guy."

I'll use myself as an example instead of Maher. I tend to support Republican candidates more so than Democratic ones because of a fundamental political approach. There are some issues that many Republicans pin their religious convictions on, and I simply don't share that with them. For example, the lack of Christian representation in public schools doesn't really bother me. I think the Supreme Court has ruled pretty well in most respects of state endorsement of religion, and I don't care much about the perceived "attack on Christianity" that the far religious right believe is going on, and even if there is somewhat of an attack, I don't believe anything tragic has happened.

If I vote for Romney, that doesn't suddenly make me start advocating school prayer, now does it? I would be doing so out of interest for a bigger political picture, but I'm not changing anything about myself, and I am being very honest about it. Now, if I simultaneously start saying that I believe in mandatory school prayer even though I have said for decades that I don't, then I have an integrity issue. I may have changed my stance for personal reasons, but I would be a rightful target for anybody who would want to give me flack over it.

If the message were all that mattered, then Graham would not have had to worry about removing Mormonism from his list of cults. The political maneuver demanded that he do it. The moment he did it, he transitioned from "religious figure with political ties" to a firmly political figure. Ultimately it's a speck on the radar. When Vatican II happened, there was some stink, but the Catholic Church made the transition. The same will happen here if Romney wins. A religion that has been considered a religious cult for many decades among mainstream Christians will find themselves suddenly in the club.

Essentially, Graham has conceded a position long held.

1. Do you have an opinion of the message?

2.I'd like to take you up on this tangent:
"If I vote for Romney, that doesn't suddenly make me start advocating school prayer, now does it? I would be doing so out of interest for a bigger political picture, but I'm not changing anything about myself, and I am being very honest about it. Now, if I simultaneously start saying that I believe in mandatory school prayer even though I have said for decades that I don't, then I have an integrity issue. I may have changed my stance for personal reasons, but I would be a rightful target for anybody who would want to give me flack over it.

Are you conflating 'school prayer,' which I endorse, with 'mandatory school prayer,' which no one endorses?
Was that by accident?

If you're meaning his message as you put forth in the OP, then yes. I don't vote based on Biblical principles, and that is exactly what he is calling Americans to do. So, this message is not meant for me, but for those that do. It is meant for Christians. It is also meant to persuade Christians who would be apprehensive about Romney because of his Mormon beliefs to cast them aside. He has simultaneously embraced Mormonism into the mainstream Christian fold, which is pretty precedent-setting considering how long he has considered Mormonism a cult. Otherwise his message would mean nothing. Is there something about the message that I am missing?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to take up the tangent. It was not meant as a tangent, merely an example. I can use any number of examples.

Let's make it completely outside of religion altogether. My wife is pretty moderate, as I am, but she tends to lean a little to the left, as I lean a little to the right. She is a Democrat, but she holds some notable views that are in stark contrast to the Democratic rank and file. For example, she firmly supports the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. She may not be a card-carrying NRA member, but her views certainly don't mirror the Dem rank and file in any way. If she were to have some sort of political influence through some sort of Democratic group, and she endorsed that group, and as part of that endorsement she also took up the call and started campaigning for stricter gun control, then she has forsaken an individual cause she formerly embraced for the sake of the party line. That is exactly what Graham has done in this case. Now, we can attempt to go off on a tangent about the right to bear arms, but that's not the issue. I just don't see how you can disagree with the corollary.

This is a largely philosophical debate. I am bringing to issue the question of integrity. Integrity is the consistency of a person's words and beliefs with his or her actions. I see some integrity issues here. Is it earth-shattering? No. It's an interesting discussion nonetheless.

 

[The VOR]

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association this week removed Mormonism from its list of religious cults, the Charlotte Observer reports.

I guess now that the election is over, and mittens lost, that crazy old fuck graham will put mormonism back on the cult list.

 

[sealybobo]

1. "Washington (CNN) - The most famous and revered pastor in America, Billy Graham, is calling on voters to cast a ballot for their faith in full-page ads in the Wall Street Journal, USA Today and other newspapers.




2. "As I approach my 94th birthday, I realize this election could be my last."

3. "I believe it is vitally important that we cast our ballots for candidates who base their decisions on biblical principles and support the nation of Israel.

4. I urge you to vote for those who protect the sanctity of life and support the biblical definition of marriage between a man and a woman.

5. Vote for biblical values this November 6, and pray with me that America will remain one nation under God."





6. The ad hit the prominent papers Wednesday and Thursday, and could hit a dozen more newspapers, a week after the famed evangelist met with Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney at Graham's Montreat, North Carolina, home and less than a month after his son Franklin Graham issued a full-throated endorsement of Romney in a USA Today opinion piece.

7. "This ad is consistent with both the mission of the BGEA and Billy Graham's personal methodology to diligently and consistently remain politically neutral and nonpartisan throughout his public ministry," Ross said.

8. "Against the backdrop of moral decline and a cultural shift in our nation that reflects timely issues, Mr. Graham's quotation in the ad is an extension of his faithful preaching of a timeless message and strong stand on biblical values for more than six decades.""
Billy Graham buys election ads after Romney meeting – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

Not sad to see this scumbag go. He has ruined America. The climate we have today is because of scum like this asshole. Burn in hell Billy. Burn in hell.

Billy Graham's Legacy Is Conflating White Christianity And Patriotism | HuffPost

 

[sealybobo]

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association this week removed Mormonism from its list of religious cults, the Charlotte Observer reports.

I guess now that the election is over, and mittens lost, that crazy old fuck graham will put mormonism back on the cult list.

We know he didn't like Jews

Graham's closest presidential relationship was with Richard Nixon, who offered him any government job he wanted - including ambassador to Israel

Graham found himself at times in controversy over his disapproving stand on gay rights, as well as over a secretly recorded conversation with Nixon in which the cleric complained that Jews had too much influence on the U.S. media. In the later years of his career he intentionally muted his political beliefs to focus on the Gospel.

Donald Trump said on Twitter: "The GREAT Billy Graham is dead. There was nobody like him! He will be missed by Christians and all religions. A very special man."

I don't think the jews miss him Don.

Nixon aide H.R. Haldeman first mentioned Graham's anti-Semitic remarks in a 1994 book, which Graham strongly denied. But when audio tapes from the Nixon White House were released in 2002, Graham could be heard referring to Jews as pornographers and agreeing with Nixon that the U.S. media was dominated by liberal Jews and could send the United States "down the drain."

'They're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,'' Graham said to Nixon - "the Jewish stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain,'' he continued.

Graham also confided in Nixon that he hid his true feelings about Jews from them: ''I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal (then executive editor) at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know. And all -- I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country.

 

[longknife]

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association this week removed Mormonism from its list of religious cults, the Charlotte Observer reports.

I guess now that the election is over, and mittens lost, that crazy old fuck graham will put mormonism back on the cult list.

We know he didn't like Jews

Graham's closest presidential relationship was with Richard Nixon, who offered him any government job he wanted - including ambassador to Israel

Graham found himself at times in controversy over his disapproving stand on gay rights, as well as over a secretly recorded conversation with Nixon in which the cleric complained that Jews had too much influence on the U.S. media. In the later years of his career he intentionally muted his political beliefs to focus on the Gospel.

Donald Trump said on Twitter: "The GREAT Billy Graham is dead. There was nobody like him! He will be missed by Christians and all religions. A very special man."

I don't think the jews miss him Don.

Nixon aide H.R. Haldeman first mentioned Graham's anti-Semitic remarks in a 1994 book, which Graham strongly denied. But when audio tapes from the Nixon White House were released in 2002, Graham could be heard referring to Jews as pornographers and agreeing with Nixon that the U.S. media was dominated by liberal Jews and could send the United States "down the drain."

'They're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,'' Graham said to Nixon - "the Jewish stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain,'' he continued.

Graham also confided in Nixon that he hid his true feelings about Jews from them: ''I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal (then executive editor) at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know. And all -- I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country.

You really have to sink to the low of attacking a man who cannot defend himself?

You atheist Leftists are really sick.

 

[Picaro]

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association this week removed Mormonism from its list of religious cults, the Charlotte Observer reports.

I guess now that the election is over, and mittens lost, that crazy old fuck graham will put mormonism back on the cult list.

We know he didn't like Jews

Graham's closest presidential relationship was with Richard Nixon, who offered him any government job he wanted - including ambassador to Israel

Graham found himself at times in controversy over his disapproving stand on gay rights, as well as over a secretly recorded conversation with Nixon in which the cleric complained that Jews had too much influence on the U.S. media. In the later years of his career he intentionally muted his political beliefs to focus on the Gospel.

Donald Trump said on Twitter: "The GREAT Billy Graham is dead. There was nobody like him! He will be missed by Christians and all religions. A very special man."

I don't think the jews miss him Don.

Nixon aide H.R. Haldeman first mentioned Graham's anti-Semitic remarks in a 1994 book, which Graham strongly denied. But when audio tapes from the Nixon White House were released in 2002, Graham could be heard referring to Jews as pornographers and agreeing with Nixon that the U.S. media was dominated by liberal Jews and could send the United States "down the drain."

'They're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,'' Graham said to Nixon - "the Jewish stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain,'' he continued.

Graham also confided in Nixon that he hid his true feelings about Jews from them: ''I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal (then executive editor) at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know. And all -- I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country.

You really have to sink to the low of attacking a man who cannot defend himself?

You atheist Leftists are really sick.

Yep. No genuine reason for respecting them in any way , shape, or fashion any more.

 

[JoeB131]

You really have to sink to the low of attacking a man who cannot defend himself?

You atheist Leftists are really sick.

Why? Most people made these criticism of him while he was alive.

 

[sealybobo]

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association this week removed Mormonism from its list of religious cults, the Charlotte Observer reports.

I guess now that the election is over, and mittens lost, that crazy old fuck graham will put mormonism back on the cult list.

We know he didn't like Jews

Graham's closest presidential relationship was with Richard Nixon, who offered him any government job he wanted - including ambassador to Israel

Graham found himself at times in controversy over his disapproving stand on gay rights, as well as over a secretly recorded conversation with Nixon in which the cleric complained that Jews had too much influence on the U.S. media. In the later years of his career he intentionally muted his political beliefs to focus on the Gospel.

Donald Trump said on Twitter: "The GREAT Billy Graham is dead. There was nobody like him! He will be missed by Christians and all religions. A very special man."

I don't think the jews miss him Don.

Nixon aide H.R. Haldeman first mentioned Graham's anti-Semitic remarks in a 1994 book, which Graham strongly denied. But when audio tapes from the Nixon White House were released in 2002, Graham could be heard referring to Jews as pornographers and agreeing with Nixon that the U.S. media was dominated by liberal Jews and could send the United States "down the drain."

'They're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,'' Graham said to Nixon - "the Jewish stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain,'' he continued.

Graham also confided in Nixon that he hid his true feelings about Jews from them: ''I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal (then executive editor) at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know. And all -- I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country.

You really have to sink to the low of attacking a man who cannot defend himself?

You atheist Leftists are really sick.

Yep. No genuine reason for respecting them in any way , shape, or fashion any more.

After hearing those tapes of him with Nixon fuck him. Not a good man. We talk bad about hitler no one complains

 

[sealybobo]

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association this week removed Mormonism from its list of religious cults, the Charlotte Observer reports.

I guess now that the election is over, and mittens lost, that crazy old fuck graham will put mormonism back on the cult list.

We know he didn't like Jews

Graham's closest presidential relationship was with Richard Nixon, who offered him any government job he wanted - including ambassador to Israel

Graham found himself at times in controversy over his disapproving stand on gay rights, as well as over a secretly recorded conversation with Nixon in which the cleric complained that Jews had too much influence on the U.S. media. In the later years of his career he intentionally muted his political beliefs to focus on the Gospel.

Donald Trump said on Twitter: "The GREAT Billy Graham is dead. There was nobody like him! He will be missed by Christians and all religions. A very special man."

I don't think the jews miss him Don.

Nixon aide H.R. Haldeman first mentioned Graham's anti-Semitic remarks in a 1994 book, which Graham strongly denied. But when audio tapes from the Nixon White House were released in 2002, Graham could be heard referring to Jews as pornographers and agreeing with Nixon that the U.S. media was dominated by liberal Jews and could send the United States "down the drain."

'They're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,'' Graham said to Nixon - "the Jewish stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain,'' he continued.

Graham also confided in Nixon that he hid his true feelings about Jews from them: ''I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal (then executive editor) at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know. And all -- I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country.

You really have to sink to the low of attacking a man who cannot defend himself?

You atheist Leftists are really sick.

More proof you don’t really believe that son of a bitch is in heaven. If he was you wouldn’t care how we speak of him.

Maybe I should do what Billy graham did to the Jews. Say nice things publically about him but in private say he’s what is wrong with America.

Would you like that? Ok. He was a great guy. NOT

 

[Picaro]

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association this week removed Mormonism from its list of religious cults, the Charlotte Observer reports.

I guess now that the election is over, and mittens lost, that crazy old fuck graham will put mormonism back on the cult list.

We know he didn't like Jews

Graham's closest presidential relationship was with Richard Nixon, who offered him any government job he wanted - including ambassador to Israel

Graham found himself at times in controversy over his disapproving stand on gay rights, as well as over a secretly recorded conversation with Nixon in which the cleric complained that Jews had too much influence on the U.S. media. In the later years of his career he intentionally muted his political beliefs to focus on the Gospel.

Donald Trump said on Twitter: "The GREAT Billy Graham is dead. There was nobody like him! He will be missed by Christians and all religions. A very special man."

I don't think the jews miss him Don.

Nixon aide H.R. Haldeman first mentioned Graham's anti-Semitic remarks in a 1994 book, which Graham strongly denied. But when audio tapes from the Nixon White House were released in 2002, Graham could be heard referring to Jews as pornographers and agreeing with Nixon that the U.S. media was dominated by liberal Jews and could send the United States "down the drain."

'They're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,'' Graham said to Nixon - "the Jewish stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain,'' he continued.

Graham also confided in Nixon that he hid his true feelings about Jews from them: ''I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal (then executive editor) at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know. And all -- I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country.

You really have to sink to the low of attacking a man who cannot defend himself?

You atheist Leftists are really sick.

Yep. No genuine reason for respecting them in any way , shape, or fashion any more.

After hearing those tapes of him with Nixon fuck him. Not a good man. We talk bad about hitler no one complains

So, you're saying he was merely being anti-semitic, or that you don't think Jews in fact dominated the porn industry, or owned and/or managed a big chunk of the Movie, television, and major newspapers at the time?

What did he do to 'The Jews', exactly?

 

[Erinwltr]

Waste of money.

 

[sealybobo]

I guess now that the election is over, and mittens lost, that crazy old fuck graham will put mormonism back on the cult list.

We know he didn't like Jews

Graham's closest presidential relationship was with Richard Nixon, who offered him any government job he wanted - including ambassador to Israel

Graham found himself at times in controversy over his disapproving stand on gay rights, as well as over a secretly recorded conversation with Nixon in which the cleric complained that Jews had too much influence on the U.S. media. In the later years of his career he intentionally muted his political beliefs to focus on the Gospel.

Donald Trump said on Twitter: "The GREAT Billy Graham is dead. There was nobody like him! He will be missed by Christians and all religions. A very special man."

I don't think the jews miss him Don.

Nixon aide H.R. Haldeman first mentioned Graham's anti-Semitic remarks in a 1994 book, which Graham strongly denied. But when audio tapes from the Nixon White House were released in 2002, Graham could be heard referring to Jews as pornographers and agreeing with Nixon that the U.S. media was dominated by liberal Jews and could send the United States "down the drain."

'They're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,'' Graham said to Nixon - "the Jewish stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain,'' he continued.

Graham also confided in Nixon that he hid his true feelings about Jews from them: ''I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal (then executive editor) at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know. And all -- I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country.

You really have to sink to the low of attacking a man who cannot defend himself?

You atheist Leftists are really sick.

Yep. No genuine reason for respecting them in any way , shape, or fashion any more.

After hearing those tapes of him with Nixon fuck him. Not a good man. We talk bad about hitler no one complains

So, you're saying he was merely being anti-semitic, or that you don't think Jews in fact dominated the porn industry, or owned and/or managed a big chunk of the Movie, television, and major newspapers at the time?

What did he do to 'The Jews', exactly?

It’s his opinion that they are ruining this country, then turn around and pretend to be their friends. Then lied and cried when he got caught, after he denied. Now he’s in hell deep fried.

How can you believe anything him or Jim baker say publically. You know they’re lyin

 

[Picaro]

We know he didn't like Jews

Graham's closest presidential relationship was with Richard Nixon, who offered him any government job he wanted - including ambassador to Israel

Graham found himself at times in controversy over his disapproving stand on gay rights, as well as over a secretly recorded conversation with Nixon in which the cleric complained that Jews had too much influence on the U.S. media. In the later years of his career he intentionally muted his political beliefs to focus on the Gospel.

Donald Trump said on Twitter: "The GREAT Billy Graham is dead. There was nobody like him! He will be missed by Christians and all religions. A very special man."

I don't think the jews miss him Don.

Nixon aide H.R. Haldeman first mentioned Graham's anti-Semitic remarks in a 1994 book, which Graham strongly denied. But when audio tapes from the Nixon White House were released in 2002, Graham could be heard referring to Jews as pornographers and agreeing with Nixon that the U.S. media was dominated by liberal Jews and could send the United States "down the drain."

'They're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,'' Graham said to Nixon - "the Jewish stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain,'' he continued.

Graham also confided in Nixon that he hid his true feelings about Jews from them: ''I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal (then executive editor) at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know. And all -- I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country.

You really have to sink to the low of attacking a man who cannot defend himself?

You atheist Leftists are really sick.

Yep. No genuine reason for respecting them in any way , shape, or fashion any more.

After hearing those tapes of him with Nixon fuck him. Not a good man. We talk bad about hitler no one complains

So, you're saying he was merely being anti-semitic, or that you don't think Jews in fact dominated the porn industry, or owned and/or managed a big chunk of the Movie, television, and major newspapers at the time?

What did he do to 'The Jews', exactly?

It’s his opinion that they are ruining this country, then turn around and pretend to be their friends. Then lied and cried when he got caught, after he denied. Now he’s in hell deep fried.

How can you believe anything him or Jim baker say publically. You know they’re lyin

So, he didn't actually say anything most people, including Jews, didn't already know.

Okay thanks for playing.

 

[sealybobo]

You really have to sink to the low of attacking a man who cannot defend himself?

You atheist Leftists are really sick.

Yep. No genuine reason for respecting them in any way , shape, or fashion any more.

After hearing those tapes of him with Nixon fuck him. Not a good man. We talk bad about hitler no one complains

So, you're saying he was merely being anti-semitic, or that you don't think Jews in fact dominated the porn industry, or owned and/or managed a big chunk of the Movie, television, and major newspapers at the time?

What did he do to 'The Jews', exactly?

It’s his opinion that they are ruining this country, then turn around and pretend to be their friends. Then lied and cried when he got caught, after he denied. Now he’s in hell deep fried.

How can you believe anything him or Jim baker say publically. You know they’re lyin

So, he didn't actually say anything most people, including Jews, didn't already know.

Okay thanks for playing.

I'm just glad the jews know how you guys really feel about them. When you say this is a jewdao christian nation, you don't really mean it.

He's a coward and a liar if he won't admit what he really believes. But we already know what he is no matter what he says publicly.

Nixon aide H.R. Haldeman first mentioned Graham's anti-Semitic remarks in a 1994 book, which Graham strongly denied. But when audio tapes from the Nixon White House were released in 2002, Graham could be heard referring to Jews as pornographers and agreeing with Nixon that the U.S. media was dominated by liberal Jews and could send the United States "down the drain."

''They're the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,'' Graham said to Nixon - "the Jewish stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain,'' he continued.

Graham also confided in Nixon that he hid his true feelings about Jews from them: ''I go and I keep friends with Mr. Rosenthal (then executive editor) at The New York Times and people of that sort, you know. And all -- I mean, not all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know that I'm friendly with Israel. But they don't know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country. And I have no power, no way to handle them, but I would stand up if under proper circumstances.''

Graham, who had a long history of supporting Israel, apologized profusely after the tapes' release and said he had no recollection of the conversation.

"If it wasn't on tape, I would not have believed it," Graham told Newsweek. "I guess I was trying to please. I felt so badly about myself - I couldn't believe it. I went to a meeting with Jewish leaders and I told them I would crawl to them to ask their forgiveness."