Big D might be right

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
You make me earn it, newguy. God bless you for that!

We ought to all be able to prove with an airtight factual case why we believe ANYTHING.

Otherwise, we are stupid to believe it.

As far as this issue goes, you have shown it isn't about a people as citizens.

It is about the money in politics.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by NewGuy


We ought to all be able to prove with an airtight factual case why we believe ANYTHING.

Otherwise, we are stupid to believe it.

As far as this issue goes, you have shown it isn't about a people as citizens.

It is about the money in politics.

It is partially about people as citizens though. Sorry. Is this gonna be five pages of proofs now? Please spare us!

ItIS about double sets of race based expectations about people as citizens, and yes, part of it is about pandering, but part of it is also discrediting this agenda from other viewpoints and FOR other audiences as well. We must discredit it in all possible ways. Part of the fight is pointing out how the very notion of AA at all is discriminatory and FUNCTIONS THROUGH the process of racial discrimination, something we claim to abhor. And then there are those people who just want to call anyone who points out these simple truths a racist.

 

[sweetpea]

I understand how you feel--I was raised in a racist household. I now understand in the 12 years since I moved out on my own, that it is uncomfortable to be in a situation with those who are ethnically different. Not to lump everyone into one catagory but I have found that on average-black people are more boisterous than whites. It takes some getting use to. But I have learned so much from those not like me. I can't resign myself to believe that being different =bad. I'm constantly accused of living through rose colored glasses , though. I'm not saying be naive-but there is nothing wrong with giving the benifit of the doubt.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by sweetpea
I understand how you feel--I was raised in a racist household. I now understand in the 12 years since I moved out on my own, that it is uncomfortable to be in a situation with those who are ethnically different. Not to lump everyone into one catagory but I have found that on average-black people are more boisterous than whites. It takes some getting use to. But I have learned so much from those not like me. I can't resign myself to believe that being different =bad. I'm constantly accused of living through rose colored glasses , though. I'm not saying be naive-but there is nothing wrong with giving the benifit of the doubt.

More boisterous! ahahaha. That's pretty funny.

I give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm just saying we shouldn't have quotas by race in any situation. It's antithetical to our goals of racial tolerance and an integrated society. It's very divisive, actually.

Welcome sweetpea. Thanks for your "more boisterous" comment. That was priceless!

 

[NewGuy]

The fine points of this I would disagree on are:

1. The people are (I hate to say this) VICTIMS of this stupid game with the racism/AA/slavery/etc.... card always showing up.

Anytime there is a political football, money and power are grown by flipping the issue around. Who loses? -The citizens.

It is like this.....If nobody mentioned ANY deaths by guns accept the criminals in the act of comitting crimes, how many would be in favor of gun control 200 years from now?

When you do not get bombarded with one way opinion all the time, you have the capacity for rational solution.

We constantly hear either:

Them (insert racial slur here) idiots just moved into my town. They are gonna steal my gun, rape my horse, and ride off on my woman.

or

I am a victim of slavery because my great great grandpappy was a slave and we have lived here all of our lives and I still can't speak English becasue I am only 42. -Which is why Ebonics should be a sanctified language and why I need a guaranteed 40 acres and a mule plus permanent employment for life.

This undermines the entire solution process. The "SYSTEM" which has been continuously propagating only one or the other mentallity and making a buck off both ignore the reality:

That "THE SYSTEM" is at fault, and people are brainwashed by it, and both of the perpetuated perspectives I just mentioned.

Bringing racism up in all its facets as you mention tends to feed this very same beast becasue people are already predispositioned to one side or the other.

It needs to be carefully adressed seperating the citizens from the problem as they are brainwashed on one side and IMPORTED, held down BY THE SYSTEM (marketing, drugs, etc...), and brianwashed on the other.

 

[sweetpea]

In a perfect world - I would agree. I don't like quotas but I really feel like we are not yet free of the remanents (sp?) of the 60's. i know too many poeple who still feel very strongly against blacks ( or mexicans or whatever) I really don't feel that blacks deserve an acre and a mule.. I was not one of those that oppressed them. But I due feel that there is definite carryover. Until the "greatest generations" fades we will have the 'old white boys club'. What do we do int he meantime??

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by NewGuy
The fine points of this I would disagree on are:

1. The people are (I hate to say this) VICTIMS of this stupid game with the racism/AA/slavery/etc.... card always showing up.

Anytime thereis a political football, money and power are grown by flipping the issue around. Who loses? -The citizens.

It is like this.....If nobody mentioned ANY deaths by guns accept the criminals in the act of comitting crimes, how many would be in favor of gun control 200 years from now?

When you do not get bombarded with one way opinion all the time, you have the capacity for rational solution.

We constantly hear either:

Them (insert racial slur here) idiots just moved into my town. They are gonna steal my gun, rape my horse, and ride off on my woman.

or

I am a victim of slaver because my great great grandpappy was a slave and we have lived here all of our lives and I still can't speak English becasue I am only 42. -Which is why Ebonics should be a sanctified language and why I need a guaranteed 40 acres and a mule plus permanent employment for life.

This undermines the entire solution process. The "SYSTEM" which has been continuously propagating only one or the other mentallity and making a buck off both ignore the reality:

That "THE SYSTEM" is at fault, and people are brainwashed by it, and both of the perpetuated perspectives I just mentioned.

Bringing racism up in all its facets as you mention tends to feed this very same beast becasue people are already predispositioned to one side or the other.

It needs to be carefully adressed seperating the citizens from the problem as they are brainwashed on one side and IMPORTED, held down BY THE SYSTEM (marketing, drugs, etc...), and brianwashed on the other.

How do you seprate the citizens from the problem? WHat does that mean? Are you saying it shouldn't be discussed, because it's an emotional issue and people MAY have already held opinions?

If that's what you're saying, I disagree completely. It should be discussed. If that's not what you're saying, then hip me to the truth, daddy-o.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by sweetpea
In a perfect world - I would agree. I don't like quotas but I really feel like we are not yet free of the remanents (sp?) of the 60's. i know too many poeple who still feel very strongly against blacks ( or mexicans or whatever) I really don't feel that blacks deserve an acre and a mule.. I was not one of those that oppressed them. But I due feel that there is definite carryover. Until the "greatest generations" fades we will have the 'old white boys club'. What do we do int he meantime??

Hello and Welcome Sweet Pea, be prepared, they are going to come back now. Touchy subject, but heh they are nice, just argumentative.:

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by sweetpea
In a perfect world - I would agree. I don't like quotas but I really feel like we are not yet free of the remanents (sp?) of the 60's. i know too many poeple who still feel very strongly against blacks ( or mexicans or whatever) I really don't feel that blacks deserve an acre and a mule.. I was not one of those that oppressed them. But I due feel that there is definite carryover. Until the "greatest generations" fades we will have the 'old white boys club'. What do we do int he meantime??

I just know that discrimination against white people is not the answer. I don't think we must solve all racism in the world before we can remove it from our public policy. Until the world is perfect, whites will be punished? Not in my country.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Kathianne
Hello and Welcome Sweet Pea, be prepared, they are going to come back now. Touchy subject, but heh they are nice, just argumentative.:

Hey, do we know each other?

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Hey, do we know each other?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
How do you seprate the citizens from the problem? WHat does that mean? Are you saying it shouldn't be discussed, because it's an emotional issue and people MAY have already held opinions?

If that's what you're saying, I disagree completely. It should be discussed. If that's not what you're saying, then hip me to the truth, daddy-o.

I am saying you need to clearly state things the way they are as you did to me above with the point when you said I make you earn it.

That was the most perfect post I have ever seen you place on the issue.

You made it clear what the issue was and you could NOT be misunderstood to be on or defending either side.

WHY?

You AREN'T ON EITHER SIDE.

You want a neutral solution to a political/economic football. You want it GONE. You want an even, level playing field.

By MENTIONING specifically ANY statement, wording, or stat from either of the perpetuated views, you fall INTO them. The whole issue then becomes unsolvable. You become part of the problem instead of the solution.

Again, the citizens are the SUBJECTS of the problem, but the problem is what is happening with our "SYSTEM". Mentioning anything other than that redirects the issue, kills the proper perception, and fuels hatred from both sides.

 

[sweetpea]

I'm ready I appreciate debate.I like to question things. I don't know that there is no easy answer to these things but I enjoy the analysis. Thanks for the great welcome !!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by NewGuy
I am saying you need to clearly state things the way they are as you did to me above with the point when you said I make you earn it.

That was the most perfect post I have ever seen you place on the issue.

You made it clear what the issue was and you could NOT be misunderstood to be on or defending either side.

WHY?

You AREN'T ON EITHER SIDE.

You want a neutral solution to a political/economic football. You want it GONE. You want en even, level playing field.

By MENTIONING specifically ANY statement, wording, or stat from either of the perpetuated views, you fall INTO them.

Is looking at actual crime statistics, "falling into one of them"? Sometimes the facts are just facts, and not part of a brainwash routine.

The whole issue then becomes unsolvable. You become part of the problem instead of the solution.

Again, the citizens are the SUBJECTS of the problem, but the problem is what is happening with our "SYSTEM". Mentioning anything other than that redirects the issue, kills the proper perception, and fuels hatred from both sides.

You don't define the proper perception of all things. Sorry. Can't give you that one, chum.

It seems part of you is still trying to say that some things just shouldn't be discussed. THat's bs. It should all be out in the open, discussed daily, BOTH sides seen and heard, people deciding for themselves. If I have misread you, I apologize.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Is looking at actual crime statistics, "falling into one of them"? Sometimes the facts are just facts, and not part of a brainwash routine.

This part of the info would not be progressive to the bigger overwhelming issue, and instead fans the flames on both sides and even throws you into one of them.

You don't define the proper perception of all things. Sorry. Can't give you that one, chum.

Ummmm....I didn't claim to. I was referring to the perceptions I mentioned in the previous post.

It seems part of you is still trying to say that some things just shouldn't be discussed. THat's bs. It should all be out in the open, discussed daily, BOTH sides seen and heard, people deciding for themselves. If I have misread you, I apologize.

I am saying if you have a war to fight, you don't use all of your ammo in a minor skirmish and move away from organizing the war its self. Vocalizing the smaller inflamitory bits insignificant to the ral solution is irresponsible and counterproductive.

I would say that you have every right to say whatever you want. I would never say otherwise.

However, it sabotages your appearance of integrity and understanding to the real issue, not to mention sabotaging the war its self.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by NewGuy
This part of the info would not be progressive to the bigger overwhelming issue, and instead fans the flames on both sides and even throws you into one of them.



Ummmm....I didn't claim to. I was referring to the perceptions I mentioned in the previous post.



I am saying if you have a war to fight, you don't use all of your ammo in a minor skirmish and move away from organizing the war its self. Vocalizing the smaller inflamitory bits insignificant to the ral solution is irresponsible and counterproductive.

I would say that you have every right to say whatever you want. I would never say otherwise.

However, it sabotages your appearance of integrity and understanding to the real issue, not to mention sabotaging the war its self.

No. I must disagree. Sometimes people are not even aware of problems, and just choose to believe the rosy view pc politicians want us to believe. Sometimes statistics honestly presented can be real eye opening.

Thanks for defending my rights to free speech.

I must say I am perturbed by your willingness to ignore problems, simply because they're emotional. I'm also bothered by your assertion that arguments in and of themselves only fan the flames of nonexistant strawman categories. That's a very rigid conception. My overwhelming feeling I get from you is that you just don't think it should be discussed.

I know you don't want your lib friends, if you have any, to come here and see that there are "racists" on the board. But get over it. Our society is in denial. I don't agree with big d on everything. I have a rosier view than he. But our society is in a lot of denial about a lot of issues. And I'm going down the list. This was next.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

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[Big D]

All public discourse on race today is locked into this rigid logic. Any explanation for black failure that does not depend on White wickedness threatens to veer off into the forbidden territory of racial differences. Thus, even if today's Whites can find in their hearts no desire to oppress blacks, yesterday's Whites must have oppressed them. If Whites do not consciously oppress blacks, they must oppress them Unconsciously. If no obviously racist individuals can be identified, then societal institutions must be racist. Or, since blacks are failing so terribly in America, there simply must be millions of White people we do not know about, who are working day and night to keep blacks in misery. The dogma of racial equality leaves no room for an explanation of black failure that is not, in some fashion, an indictment of White people.

The logical consequences of this are clear. Since we are required to believe that the only explanation for non-White failure is White racism, every time a non-White is poor, commits a crime, goes on welfare, or takes drugs, White society stands accused of yet another act of racism. All failure or misbehavior by non-Whites is standing proof that White society is riddled with hatred and bigotry. For precisely so long as non-Whites fail to succeed in life at exactly the same level as Whites, Whites will be, by definition, thwarting and oppressing them. This obligatory pattern of thinking leads to strange conclusions. First of all, racism is a sin that is thought to be committed almost exclusively by White people. Indeed, a black congressman from Chicago, Gus Savage, and Coleman Young, the black mayor of Detroit, have argued that only White people can be racist. Likewise, in 1987, the affirmative action officer of the State Insurance Fund of New York issued a company pamphlet in which she explained that all Whites are racist and that only Whites can be racist. How else could the plight of blacks be explained without flirting with the possibility of racial inequality?

http://www.planetpapers.com/Assets/3874.php

 

[Jmarie]

Originally posted by Big D
One problem white folks have are people like OCA, NewGuy, and Flasher, they get so emotional with fear and alot of times act like women. They are spinless jellyfish who choose the path of least resistance no matter how right or wrong.


Other races don't have such weak emotionaly men as white folks do.

Excuse Me? I'm a nice young lady who is not a spinless jellyfish who chooses the path of least resistances no matter how right or wrong it is..I'm a very opinionated woman..I can handle myself thank you very much I don't need a man to help me out..and for to say that about women that is just wrong..I can't believe you would say something like that..

And for blacks I have seen my share of bad ones and my share of good ones..but I have also have seen my share of bad whites too....so how can you sit there and say that all blacks are bad..Not all of them are..I can't sit here and say that all men are bad because I know that no all of them are..My god open your eyes and see what's outside the box not just inside..

 

[rtwngAvngr]

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