Biden - A regular working class Joe or an elitist politician?

[editec]

That's not "affluent" except in military and perhaps some government circles. Old money looks down their noses at that kind of "affluence."

I'm not sure what rank McCain's father was while he was growing up. For instance, my father retired a CMsgt (E-9), but he was an E-4, 5, and 6 while I was growing up. BIG difference.

However, I will give you that he probably had it at least a little nicer than a car salesman's kid ... I just won't go so far as to put him in the priveleged class.

I would.

Admirals live lives very similar to those lived by cvilians whose worth is measured in multimillions, sport.

The fleet level officer class IS part of the elite power structure of this nation and always has been.

Now I do not hold that against the man, in fact I admire that class of people, because of the elite in our nation, I think they are probably the most honorable of men.

But as to anyone who is of the third generation of it?

What they really know or understand about being in the American working class wouldn't fill a dittybag.

I am NOT thrilled with Biden, BTW.

His role in the change of bankruptsy laws that happened just a few years ago does not bring him great honor in this working class stiff's opinion.

Now I understand why they selected Biden.

I even think the choice was a politic thing to do. I even think that Biden is probably a decent Dem. who will work to help the middle class most of the time.

But that bankrupsy law change was a sellout, and a perfect example of the class war against the working class that I insist IS going to cause the downfall of this great republic of ours.

For those of you who believe in personal responsibility?

Those of you who think that people should not be able to go bankrupt to get ride of nonsecured debts (like credit cards debts?).

Well let's try to think of that from the other direction of the event, shall we?

The money lenders ought to be more responsible than to lend unsecured money to people who they KNOW cannot afford to spend it.

When Biden gave MBNA and the other money lenders that change in laws he gave them TRILLIONS of future dollars, folks. TRILLIONS!

And by giving them those dollars he ENCOURAGED the wasteful spending on credit that some of you so often complain about, too.

And by doing so, he encouraged the credit card companies to continue giving people who could NOT afford it, still more money to waste, more money that ultimately gets sent to offshore in the form of consumer cha cha crap.

It was a BAD move, folks. A very bad move.

A better outcome would have been to encourage lenders to be more responsible by telling them point blank, if you lend money to people who cannot afford it at absurd rates of interest you will LOSE that money when they declare bankruptsy.

That law should NOT have been changed.

And the fact that a DEMOCRAT CHANGED IT, calls into question his credibility as a truly honest and thinking (lower case -d) democrat,

 

[Gunny]

John McCain's father, John Sr. retired a 4 star Admiral, and so did his grandfather the O.G. John McCain.

Being the son and grandson of 4 star Admirals will open up a heck of a lot more doors than being the son of a car salesman.

John S. McCain, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I said that, thanks.

 

[Gunny]

I would.

Admirals live lives very similar to those lived by cvilians whose worth is measured in multimillions, sport.

The fleet level officer class IS part of the elite power structure of this nation and always has been.

Now I do not hold that against the man, in fact I admire that class of people, because of the elite in our nation, I think they are probably the most honorable of men.

But as to anyone who is of the third generation of it?

What they really know or understand about being in the American working class wouldn't fill a dittybag.

I am NOT thrilled with Biden, BTW.

His role in the change of bankruptsy laws that happened just a few years ago does not bring his great honor in this working class stiff's opinion.

Now I understand why they selected Biden. I even think the choice was a politic thing to do. I even think that Biden is probably a decent Dem. who will work to help the middle class.

But that bankrupsy law change was a sellout, and a perfect example of the class war agains the working class that I insist IS going to cause the downfall of this great republic of ours.

For those of you who believe in personal responsibility?

Those of you who think that people should not be able to go bankrupt to get ride of nonsecured debts (like credit cards debts?).

Well let's try to think of that from the other direction, shall we?

The money lenders ought to be more responsible than to lend unsecured money to people who cannot afford to spend it.

When biden gave MBNA and the money lenders that change in laws he gave them TRILLIONS of future dollars, folks.

And by giving them those dollars he ENCOURAGED the wasteful spending on credit that some of you so often complain about, too.

And by doing so he encouraged the credit card companies to continue giving people who could NOT afford it more money to waste, more money that ultimately gets sent to offshore in the form of consumer cha cha.

It was a BAD move, folks. A very bad move.

A better outcome would have been to encourage lenders to be more responsible by telling them point blank, if you lend money to people who cannot afford it at absurd rates of interest you will LOSE that money when they declare bankruptsy.

You would because it suits your purpose for the purpose of this argument. Otherwise, you know as well as I that MANY a retired officer got his comeuppance upon retiring and finding out he/she really isn't anybody without the shiny shit on their collar (in this case epaulette).

The term "affluent" is subjective, and this is turning into a game of semantics. From death row inmate's perspective, *I* am affluent.

 

[Gunny]

Damn sick old people!

They are such cowards!

What are you talking about? YOU most certainly fit the definition of Jillian's favorite label more than most.

 

[editec]

You would because it suits your purpose for the purpose of this argument. Otherwise, you know as well as I that MANY a retired officer got his comeuppance upon retiring and finding out he/she really isn't anybody without the shiny shit on their collar (in this case epaulette).

The term "affluent" is subjective, and this is turning into a game of semantics. From death row inmate's perspective, *I* am affluent.

Yeah well I suppose I should have noted that not every officer is part of the military CASTE in this nation, to be sure. It's the intergnerational aspect of this caste that makes it unique.

But the McCains most assuredly ARE. of that caste.

Let me go a step further and submit that that MILITARY CASTE is not limited to just officers, too.

When you find generation after generation of the same family becoming lifers?

ALSO people of the American military caste.

We need people like this in our society, BTW.

They are the backbone of our military and very valuable assets for this nation.

What we do NOT need is for them to become part of the civilian goverment, though.

They do not bring civilian sensibilities to our governments.

Because after generations of living off the government in what is basically a cradle to grave socialist system, they really don't have a clue what being a civilian subject to the vissitudes of living in a capitalist society really means.

Let me recap my thinking here so I am not misunderstood

Military caste --good for the nation at their stations, bad for the nation when they become part of its civilian government.

 

[Gunny]

Yeah well I suppose I should have noted that not every officer is part of the military CASTE in this nation, to be sure. It's the intergnerational aspect of this caste that makes it unique.

But the McCains most assuredly ARE. of that caste.

Let me go a step further and submit that that MILITARY CASTE is not limited to just officers, too.

When you find generation after generation of the same family becoming lifers?

ALSO people of the American military caste.

We need people like this in our society, BTW.

They are the backbone of our military and very valuable assets for this nation.

What we do NOT need is for them to become part of the civilian goverment, though.

They do not bring civilian sensibilities to our governments.

Because after generations of living off the government in what is basically a cradle to grave socialist system, they really don't have a clue what being a civilian subject to the vissitudes of living in a capitalist society really means.

Let me recap my thinking here so I am not misunderstood

Military caste --good for the nation at their stations, bad for the nation when they become part of its civilian government.

Oh ... you mean like me? I'm 6th generation. Only it wasn't ever presented as perpetuating the caste system. It was presented as you should feel obligated to serve this Nation since freedom isn't really free.

Looking at the retirement benefits is no different than looking at the retirement benefits in any other field of endeavor. There's no difference in working toward that retirement or slaving away in a trade union for 45 years.

The pittance the US government pays me for the price I have paid it doesn't even come close to what I have done for myself, and thankfully so. My wife had a spinal fusion in Feb and hasn't been able to work since last November. Most people I know with that. coupled with the recession would be on the sidewalk right now simply because they do not take care of themselves and wait on Uncle Sugar to do it. THAT is a cradle to grave mentality.

That aside, being obviously, according to you, part of that caste system, I don't see Mccain nor his daddy as anything especially affluent outside military circles.

I disagree that military people shouldn't be President. Probably what we need right now. Someone with some discipline and integrity and a sense of good order.

 

[CSM]

Yeah well I suppose I should have noted that not every officer is part of the military CASTE in this nation, to be sure. It's the intergnerational aspect of this caste that makes it unique.

But the McCains most assuredly ARE. of that caste.

Let me go a step further and submit that that MILITARY CASTE is not limited to just officers, too.

When you find generation after generation of the same family becoming lifers?

ALSO people of the American military caste.

We need people like this in our society, BTW.

They are the backbone of our military and very valuable assets for this nation.

What we do NOT need is for them to become part of the civilian goverment, though.

They do not bring civilian sensibilities to our governments.

Because after generations of living off the government in what is basically a cradle to grave socialist system, they really don't have a clue what being a civilian subject to the vissitudes of living in a capitalist society really means.

Let me recap my thinking here so I am not misunderstood

Military caste --good for the nation at their stations, bad for the nation when they become part of its civilian government.

Teddy Roosevelt, John Kennedy, George Washington and Eisenhower were all HORRIBLE presidents! Military men...every one of them.

 

[Dr Grump]

He's the son of a car salesman. That tells me all I need to know about him.

Using that analogy, you must be the daughter of a Gulag Warden??

 

[editec]

Teddy Roosevelt, John Kennedy, George Washington and Eisenhower were all HORRIBLE presidents! Military men...every one of them.

NOT one of them was of the Military caste, sport.

 

[editec]

Oh ... you mean like me? I'm 6th generation. Only it wasn't ever presented as perpetuating the caste system. It was presented as you should feel obligated to serve this Nation since freedom isn't really free.

Yes, if you're sixth generation lifer, to be sure, you are of that caste, gunny. I don't doubt your motives are patriotic. that isn't my point.

Looking at the retirement benefits is no different than looking at the retirement benefits in any other field of endeavor. There's no difference in working toward that retirement or slaving away in a trade union for 45 years.

My point in this thread has nothing whatever to do with your retirement. It has to do with putting military caste people into powerful civilian poltical offices.

FWIW damned few people, even people who worked in trade unions have the same bennies you enjoy. I do not object to your bennies, I DO object to others not getting equally good ones, though.

The pittance the US government pays me for the price I have paid it doesn't even come close to what I have done for myself, and thankfully so. My wife had a spinal fusion in Feb and hasn't been able to work since last November. Most people I know with that. coupled with the recession would be on the sidewalk right now simply because they do not take care of themselves and wait on Uncle Sugar to do it. THAT is a cradle to grave mentality.

I am pleased to hear that your former service to our nation gives you and your wife decent medical care. Had you not been retired military, had you simply gotten job in the civilian world you and you wife would very likely be in serious financial trouble regardless of what career you might have made for yourself, sport.

That aside, being obviously, according to you, part of that caste system, I don't see Mccain nor his daddy as anything especially affluent outside military circles.

You keep confusing money with this issue. I use the word CASTE, rather than class for a very specific reason, amigo.

I disagree that military people shouldn't be President. Probably what we need right now. Someone with some discipline and integrity and a sense of good order.

I did NOT say "military people", I said people of the military CASTE.

Big difference.

But point of fact, no I probably would not vote for YOU to take a leading civilian position in our government based on the fact that you are of that military caste. Just as I would very likely not vote for a scion of the POLITICAL CASTE that is so obviously entrenched in this society, either.

I've stated why I think being of that caste makes you blinded to what civilians have to deal with enough times that it doesn't require repeating.

 

[Skull Pilot]

What about changing Washington? What about a "new" era of politics?

I just find it funny that BHO picks a guy who has been in the senate even longer than JM.

So much for change

 

[Dr Grump]

Teddy Roosevelt, John Kennedy, George Washington and Eisenhower were all HORRIBLE presidents! Military men...every one of them.

Kennedy was a good president, as was Washington. Roosevelt....hhmmmm....interesting call. I also thought of Eisenhower as more incognito more than anything

 

[CSM]

NOT one of them was of the Military caste, sport.

Caste or not, lifers in particular (even first generation) shouldn't even be allowed to vote since they haven't had to suffer those hardships forced upon the civilian population.

In fact, anyone who does even one enlistment in the military shouldn't be allowed to participate in any political activity for at least ten years after their enlistment is terminated... just to make sure they get their thinking straightened out.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Caste or not, lifers in particular (even first generation) shouldn't even be allowed to vote since they haven't had to suffer those hardships forced upon the civilian population.

In fact, anyone who does even one enlistment in the military shouldn't be allowed to participate in any political activity for at least ten years after their enlistment is terminated... just to make sure they get their thinking straightened out.

In that line of thinking anyone graduating from college who has never paid a bill or lived on their own should be excluded from any political activity until they understand what it takes to make it on their own. To get their thinking straightened out.

 

[Red Dawn]

That's not "affluent" except in military and perhaps some government circles. Old money looks down their noses at that kind of "affluence."

I'm not sure what rank McCain's father was while he was growing up. For instance, my father retired a CMsgt (E-9), but he was an E-4, 5, and 6 while I was growing up. BIG difference.

However, I will give you that he probably had it at least a little nicer than a car salesman's kid ... I just won't go so far as to put him in the priveleged class.

I mostly agree. I don't think I said McCain was born into super wealth. Just that he was born into a family with a long line of military leaders at the top of the food chain in Washington's military institutions, and by virtue of that, was born into a relatively well connected prominent family. Leaving aside the wealth he married into.

I don't think it matters that much in terms of this election, but its a contrast to Obama and Biden who can be characterized as completely self made men who came from modest working class roots with no particular connections or influence.

 

[CSM]

In that line of thinking anyone graduating from college who has never paid a bill or lived on their own should be excluded from any political activity until they understand what it takes to make it on their own. To get their thinking straightened out.

My point exactly.

 

[editec]

Caste or not, lifers in particular (even first generation) shouldn't even be allowed to vote since they haven't had to suffer those hardships forced upon the civilian population.

Ya think?

In fact, anyone who does even one enlistment in the military shouldn't be allowed to participate in any political activity for at least ten years after their enlistment is terminated... just to make sure they get their thinking straightened out.

Oh, I don't know about that.

Perhaps we can send then to political reeducation camps or maybe we can just wipe their memories clean to give them a fresh start.

Alternatively, finding them jobs requiring equal skills at civilian pay-scales and with typical civilian bennies might be all they really need to truly understand what it means to be a civilian in a capitalist society versus a well taken-care-of servant to our nations military socialism.

Most people who've served a term or two obviously get it quickly enough.

 

[CSM]

Ya think?



Oh, I don't know about that.

Perhaps we can send then to political reeducation camps or maybe we can just wipe their memories clean to give them a fresh start.

Alternatively, finding them jobs requiring equal skills at civilian pay-scales and with typical civilian bennies might be all they really need to truly understand what it means to be a civilian in a capitalist society versus a well taken-care-of servant to our nations military socialism.

Most people who've served a term or two obviously get it quickly enough.

You have convinced me. There should be a law that no person whose parent or parents made a career of the military should be allowed to serve in the military. No person who made a career of the military should be allowed to hold public office at any level.

Now, perhaps we should consider the same sentiment as it applies to politicians and lawyers.

 

[steeliniraq]

He's the son of a car salesman. That tells me all I need to know about him.

LOL yea because once again what his father was is exactly what he is. Tell me how many estates do you own? When I watch him go from one house to another on CNN inside his estate that reminded me exactly how middle class he is.

 

[steeliniraq]

Yes, if you're sixth generation lifer, to be sure, you are of that caste, gunny. I don't doubt your motives are patriotic. that isn't my point.



My point in this thread has nothing whatever to do with your retirement. It has to do with putting military caste people into powerful civilian poltical offices.

FWIW damned few people, even people who worked in trade unions have the same bennies you enjoy. I do not object to your bennies, I DO object to others not getting equally good ones, though.



I am pleased to hear that your former service to our nation gives you and your wife decent medical care. Had you not been retired military, had you simply gotten job in the civilian world you and you wife would very likely be in serious financial trouble regardless of what career you might have made for yourself, sport.



You keep confusing money with this issue. I use the word CASTE, rather than class for a very specific reason, amigo.



I did NOT say "military people", I said people of the military CASTE.

Big difference.

But point of fact, no I probably would not vote for YOU to take a leading civilian position in our government based on the fact that you are of that military caste. Just as I would very likely not vote for a scion of the POLITICAL CASTE that is so obviously entrenched in this society, either.

I've stated why I think being of that caste makes you blinded to what civilians have to deal with enough times that it doesn't require repeating.

Isn't it true that a lot of people go into the same type of business as their father, military or otherwise? Isn't it true that happens generation after generation? Also I still don't understand what you mean when you say being of that caste makes you blinded to what civilians have to deal with? So now we are back to saying those in the military are on a form of government welfare. It's so tough on civilians because of this and that. Well yea its damn tough on a family in the military that makes 35,000 a year but i guess now we are given everything. How does a family and military person not know what the middle class civilian is going through?! That is exactly what we are! THANK YOU GREAT CIVILIAN! IM SORRY BUT I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE POOR CIVILIANS OF MY COUNTRY ARE GOING THROUGH! What a bunch of sh*t! So I guess next we can't have people that have been in business generation after generation in gov because they are looking out for them. Also police, fire, and ems. I guess that also takes out multi generational politicians. People of the upper and lower crust can't run because they aren't middle class. Doctors and lawyers are out of the question. Well i could keep going but whats the point?