Synthaholic
Diamond Member
Why is Bert going in before Jim Kaat? Hmmmmm......
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As we are both baseball geeks, we are both aware that statistics do not tell the whole story, even though Ryno has a better lifetime fielding percentage.And if you are arguing that Sandberg was better defensively than Alomar I am afraid I cannot take that argument seriously.
While Alomar played 4 full seasons in the N.L. (out of 17 total), and also for Toronto, he generally played more games on natural grass. Yes, Sandberg played half his games on Wrigley's grass, but playing his entire career in the N.L., he dealt with more artificial surfaces of varying speeds.
Taking that into consideration, look at some of those stats.
Range factor - Career
Ryno: 32nd
Alomar: 91st
Fielding % - Career
Ryno: 8th
Alomar: 42nd
Errors - Career
Ryno: 120 (? - they don't have this for Sandberg, for some reason)
Alomar: 181 (79th)
Like I said, stats aren't everything, but clearly Alomar is not hands-down a better defensive player than Ryno. I have an excellent reference book out in the garage, and may look into it more tomorrow.
Regardless of defensive stats, Ryno was the superior major leaguer. His legendary consistency, even temperament (he never spit in an umpire's face, for example), leadership, batting, power, arm, DP prowess, and overall in-the-game knowledge ranks him higher than almost any other second baseman in history. Only Morgan is comparable.
Oh, and Morgan's numbers for those three categories I listed?
Range: 34th,
Fielding %: 78th,
Errors: 50th (244!!!)
ALL worse than Ryno!
Why is Bert going in before Jim Kaat? Hmmmmm......
So....for second basemen you are only concerned with major stats, and with pitchers, the peripheral stats are more important?
You haven't brought any of these stats to the table. I've showed 3 important categories where Alomar falls short. Are you arguing that errors aren't important? And the huge disparity in range is indicative.So....for second basemen you are only concerned with major stats, and with pitchers, the peripheral stats are more important?
Not at all.
Check the peripherals of Alomar v Sandberg ... Alomar beats him there too.
if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.
but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.
You haven't brought any of these stats to the table. I've showed 3 important categories where Alomar falls short. Are you arguing that errors aren't important? And the huge disparity in range is indicative.So....for second basemen you are only concerned with major stats, and with pitchers, the peripheral stats are more important?
Not at all.
Check the peripherals of Alomar v Sandberg ... Alomar beats him there too.
Btw - I do not ever remember Ryno being a jerk with fans or media.
Which fielding stats show Alomar to be superior?
You haven't brought any of these stats to the table. I've showed 3 important categories where Alomar falls short. Are you arguing that errors aren't important? And the huge disparity in range is indicative.So....for second basemen you are only concerned with major stats, and with pitchers, the peripheral stats are more important?
Not at all.
Check the peripherals of Alomar v Sandberg ... Alomar beats him there too.
Btw - I do not ever remember Ryno being a jerk with fans or media.
I agree that neither should be in, although they were both great pitchers in their era. The HOF is being watered down. As much as I believe Andre Dawson to be a class act, his induction is also questionable. If Andre is there, then so should Fred McGriff and Dale Murphy.Kaat and Blyleven have similar stats until you look at things like K/9 and K/BB ... Blyleven is well ahead of Kaat. IMO, neither should be in.
if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.
but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.
Really?
I watched 'em both ... Alomar was other worldly.
You haven't brought any of these stats to the table. I've showed 3 important categories where Alomar falls short. Are you arguing that errors aren't important? And the huge disparity in range is indicative.Not at all.
Check the peripherals of Alomar v Sandberg ... Alomar beats him there too.
Btw - I do not ever remember Ryno being a jerk with fans or media.
which is irrelevant to the conversation. I suppose you want Cobb banned from the hall, too.
I agree that neither should be in, although they were both great pitchers in their era. The HOF is being watered down. As much as I believe Andre Dawson to be a class act, his induction is also questionable. If Andre is there, then so should Fred McGriff and Dale Murphy.Kaat and Blyleven have similar stats until you look at things like K/9 and K/BB ... Blyleven is well ahead of Kaat. IMO, neither should be in.
You haven't brought any of these stats to the table. I've showed 3 important categories where Alomar falls short. Are you arguing that errors aren't important? And the huge disparity in range is indicative.
Btw - I do not ever remember Ryno being a jerk with fans or media.
which is irrelevant to the conversation. I suppose you want Cobb banned from the hall, too.
Agreed.
And Pete Rose NEEDS to be in.
I agree that neither should be in, although they were both great pitchers in their era. The HOF is being watered down. As much as I believe Andre Dawson to be a class act, his induction is also questionable. If Andre is there, then so should Fred McGriff and Dale Murphy.Kaat and Blyleven have similar stats until you look at things like K/9 and K/BB ... Blyleven is well ahead of Kaat. IMO, neither should be in.
Agreed as well.
I would put Murphy in before The Hawk or The Crime Dog.
I've never seen that. You're not confusing him with shortstop Omar Vizquel, are you?if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.
but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.
Really?
I watched 'em both ... Alomar was other worldly.
if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.
but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.
Really?
I watched 'em both ... Alomar was other worldly.
alomar was really good. just tough to say he was better than Ryno on the diamond.
I've never seen that. You're not confusing him with shortstop Omar Vizquel, are you?if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.
but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.
Really?
I watched 'em both ... Alomar was other worldly.