CDZ At what point do you stop giving someone the benefit of the doubt?

Discussion in 'Clean Debate Zone' started by usmbguest5318, Dec 10, 2017.

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At what point do you stop giving someone the benefit of the doubt re: a given matter?

This poll will close on Aug 9, 2071 at 4:24 PM.
  1. Upon finding that every factual, abstract and contextual element causing doubt has been eradicated

  2. Upon finding evidence the person has paltered in some material way about the matter in question

  3. Upon finding evidence the person has paltered in a minor way about the matter in questions

  4. Upon finding evidence the person has been materially wrong re: "facts" they cite

  5. Upon finding evidence the person has been materially wrong re: the context of something they cite

  6. Upon learning the person is often disingenuous, dissembling, paltering and/or prevaricating

  7. I don't give anyone the benefit of the doubt

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  1. JoeMoma
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    JoeMoma Gold Member

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    Anyway.. to the topic of the tread. I usually give people the benefit of a doubt when it has to do with something of little importance.
     
  2. usmbguest5318
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    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

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    At least upon encountering a word with which you are unfamiliar, you will bother to look it up. That alone suggests you are part of my target audience. Who is not among my target audience? Folks who will read, or partially read, my posts and be unsure about the meaning of some or all of it, and initially reply to it with something other than a request for clarification, which is also something you do not seem to do. There is shown in both those behaviors a level of prudence and integrity above that of humanity's hoi polloi, the unwashed as they are sometimes described.
     
  3. Mac1958
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    Mac1958 Diamond Member

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    That's true, it does depend on the situation. Once it crosses a line of importance, though, I get more cynical.
    .
     
  4. Circe
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    Circe Silver Member

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    My underlining -- My father used to say that! He'd refer to "the Great Unwashed," and I expect it was a quote from someone obnoxious like Bertrand Russell or Oscar Wilde or whomever. Those were the days, when you could get away with that. Well, he couldn't, really, but he said it anyway.
     
  5. danielpalos
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    danielpalos Platinum Member

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    The only reason I don't assume the right wing is simply, full of fallacy, all the time is due any, twice a day moments.
     
  6. ChrisL
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    ChrisL Diamond Member

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    I'll tell you what the problem is, sesquipedalian grandiloquence! :D
     
  7. usmbguest5318
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    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

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    Describing coarse/cretinous individuals as "unwashed" dates at least to Shakespeare. He used the the term in the play King John.
    Who, with his shears and measure in his hand,
    Standing on slippers, which his nimble haste
    Had falsely thrust upon contrary feet,
    Told of a many thousand warlike French
    That were embattailed and rank'd in Kent:
    Another lean unwash'd artificer
    Cuts off his tale and talks of Arthur's death.
    -- Shakespeare, The Life and Death of King John, Act IV, Scene II, Hubert
    Someone surely coined the specific turn of phrase "great unwashed," but for all I know, it could have been your father who did so.

    FWIW, when one's of a mind to guess a source for the metaphorical context associated with modern terms and phrases, far and away, Shakespeare is one's best guess if one truly has no idea of who else may have long ago documented the usage under consideration. The Bard's immense influence on the English language, its vocabulary, styles and uses, is one of the reasons continue to be mainstays of English curricula. Shakespeare is not alone among the pantheon of great writers who most shaped the language as we today know it; Milton, Chaucer, Joyce, Twain deserve mention too, as do I suspect, the authors of the King James version of the Bible. Be that as it may, Shakespeare is far and away the most influential overall, particularly, I'd say, when it comes to aspersions and accolades. Nobody I'm aware of documented turns of phrase to "do the dozens" or "sing one's praise" as did he.
     
  8. Circe
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    Circe Silver Member

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    Yeah, ol' Will did have a way with words.

    Took me a few look-ups, but as for the Great Unwashed, a derogatory term referring to the general public or the masses as usually used today --

    "This rather disparaging term was coined by the Victorian novelist and playwright Edward Bulwer-Lytton. He used it in his 1830 novel Paul Clifford: 'He is certainly a man who bathes and 'lives cleanly', (two especial charges preferred against him by Messrs. the Great Unwashed).'"

    This is not exactly the same meaning that it has now, which is a pose of intellectual snobbism against the "muggles."
     
  9. usmbguest5318
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    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

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    I agree; thus I went with the discursive, thus inherently intellectual, context implicit in Hubert's description of a conversation he overheard between a blacksmith and a tailor.

    Hubert relates to King John the progress of the tradesmen's conversation wherein the tailor abruptly shifted the topic of conversation from an English battle against the French in Kent to the matter of Prince Arthur's death, even though, Hubert knows the tailor to an "unwashed artificer" who was not all well informed about the circumstances of the rightful heir, Arthur's, death. The King subsequently echoes Hubert's sentiments about the presumptuousness ("winking of authority") of people unfamiliar with the burdens of leadership and power, which he calls "dangerous majesty." [1]

    It is the curse of kings to be attended
    By slaves that take their humours for a warrant
    To break within the bloody house of life,
    And on the winking of authority
    To understand a law, to know the meaning
    Of dangerous majesty, when perchance it frowns
    More upon humour than advised respect
    -- Shakespeare, The Life and Death of King John, Act IV, Scene II, King John

    Of course, I don't know whether the connotation of bumptiousness was part of the meaning your father intended when he used the term "great unwashed," but it most certainly is a connotative element in my use of the term "unwashed" to refer to individuals or groups thereof. As much can be seen in several of the quotes I've on USMB used to amplify my remarks about a variety of behaviors. Among those quotes are:

    It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a "dismal science." But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.
    -- Murray N. Rothbard

    Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
    -- Isaac Asimov
    Though the tone of officious meddling is concomitant with my use of "unwashed," in my mind, procrustean hubris is more the focus of my using that term with regard to the rhetorical formulations I hear/see aired by the unwashed. Prior to the Internet, that wouldn't have been so; however, in these times, regardless of how rigorous be one's formal education and exposure to the details of a matter, there is, quite simply, no excuse for one's not becoming well informed about it prior to, in the public sphere, remarking about it. There almost literally nothing about which one might care to speak/write and for which copious credible content is not readily available via the Internet. (That said, equally abundant is copious incredible content. LOL)


    Note:
    1. King John's remarks echo King Henry's pithier expression of the theme of "dangerous majesty": "Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown." (Henry IV, Part II, Act II, Scene I) To be sure, John comes at it from a different vantage, but the theme seems nonetheless the same.

      Not being a Shakespearean scholar, I can't say whether the recurrence of the theme in King John was intentional on Shakespeare's part. I can say I don't recall discussing that theme in my high school English literature classes, which by no means indicates that aspect wasn't discussed. While there's plenty I recall from those sessions, there's arguably plenty more I don't. LOL
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  10. usmbguest5318
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    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

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    OT:
    Having not read Paul Clifford, I lack the contextual information need to be sure; however, I wonder whether by "preferred," Lytton meant "proffered." It's quite possible that he does mean that the Great Unwashed prefer to and often enough do gripe about Clifford's (?) hygiene, though the placement of the quotation marks around "lives uncleanly," absent further contextual guidance, suggests otherwise. I'm certain about the current contextual connotation and denotation of "proffer" being apt to the nation of one's levying a charge.

    Why do I mention the above? To call attention to and illustrate the practical purpose of my earlier discussion of quotation marks, which, I believe you took as "snarky." As I earlier wrote, "snark" was not at all what was in my mind when I conceived and composed that post. I am clearly not the only writer who uses quotation marks as I mentioned I use them; it's simply a standard usage.​
     

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