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dilloduck said:Please quit accusing me of having some big hidden agenda here--I appreciate the time you spent trying to answer me the first time but it just didn't quite answer my question so I tried to make my question more precise.
You mean if I don't "get it" the first time that means I'm just a stubborn ass who's trying to just mess with your head ? That's a pretty big leap in logic.
perhaps you should show me some forgiveness for not knowing what I'm doing and try again with all the unsubstantiated accusations.freeandfun1 said:I can't help you understand something you don't *seem* to want to understand.
You quoted only part of my second reply to you, so obviously you being stubborn since you are just picking out pieces in which to reply, instead of reading the entire response and then providing me with your questions.
You claim you have read the NT. I doubt it. As if you did, you would know that Christ is the one that pleads our cases before God.
dilloduck said:perhaps you should show me some forgiveness for not knowing what I'm doing and try again with all the unsubstantiated accusations.
dilloduck said:You doubt that I've read the new testament because I didn't understand the words to mean the same thing as you did?
freeandfun1 said:You really need to grow up. For a man with so much gray, why do you act like a 12 year old?
You know exactly what you are doing.
Unsubstantiated? You just did it again. So I do believe they are very substantiated.
You didn't even apply them in context for one and for two, if you had read the NT, you would understand that every verse has a meaning behind it and that every verse is tied into the whole and not just meant to be single statement.
You've had your fun and I am done. So enjoy.... this thread can now belong to you if that is what you so desire.
Joz said:We are talking aboutwhen Jesus was being nailed to the cross, and He uttered the words, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. " Right?
Jesus was forgiving them for their actions. He understood that the plan He & His Father designed was being fulfilled. He didn't hate them or harbor any ill-will towards them. I believe He was asking God to show mercy.
Now that doesn't mean that they will go unpunished for what they did. If they themselves did not recognize Christ as the Messiah and ask for forgiveness, they cannot be forgiven.
I think the best evidence for Christ knowing what he had to do, was when he was in the Garden at Gethseme and he was awaiting the soldiers to come for him. He as a man was praying to his father to let this chalice pass from him becasue he actually felt what he would be going thru for the next three days..He was so frightened he was sweating blood and praying for the strength to do it. Finally he bows to his father's will and says "father not as I will but as you will"......... I think Mom is right when she says he was setting an example on that cross that if he could ask for forgiveness for them anyone can.manu1959 said:if christ was aware that it was gods plan for him to die on the cross for our sins....then he would not have asked god to forgive the solidiers and would not have asked god why he was being forsaken.....
so.....it would follow the christ was unaware of gods plan...
dilloduck said:Yup that's the quote ! I guess I'm trying to think a little further out of the box as I am prone to do and having a hard time understanding
1--Why Jesus needed to convey this info to God
2--Why he was asking for mercy for people who didn't know what they were doing wrong.
3--If Jesus asked for God to be merciful to these "ignorants" would he also intervene on behalf of other "ignorants"?
the primary curiostiy that was instilled by hearing this passage again was the fact he pleaded for mercy " for (because) they know not what they do ".
Bonnie said:Dillo if you remember Judas berayed Jesus, now many would say he should have been forgiven, but he wasn't only because he dispaired and killed himself, not because he betrayed Jesus. The trinity is so complex at least for me to grasp, I often struggle with questions like yours.
Well I have to disagree on this point. We are responsible for ourselves. If Christ could do this for us, we all would be saved. Even Lucifer. That's not how it works. We each have to admit our sin, ask for forgiveness and accept that God has done so.Bonnie said:......I think Mom is right when she says he was setting an example on that cross that if he could ask for forgiveness for them anyone can.
Joz said:Well I have to disagree on this point. We are responsible for ourselves. If Christ could do this for us, we all would be saved. Even Lucifer. That's not how it works. We each have to admit our sin, ask for forgiveness and accept that God has done so.
) was that we are all supposed to follow the example of forgiving others. I don't think she meant that all would be forgiven and go to Heaven.
mom4 said:I think what Bonnie meant (anyway, what I meant and Bonnie quoted
But see, they did get the whole message. They had every opportunity to know Christ and His teachings. They just didn't accept. Jesus was asking God to be merciful to them. I don't think it would have been appropriate for Christ to say, "Get'em God! Make sure they rot in hell."dilloduck said:OK--we have all these perceptions about who gets in and who doesn't----when Jesus said to forgive the ones who didn't get a shot at the whole message I thought that was a might loving act!
How could they have?----he wasn't resurrected yet?Joz said:But see, they did get the whole message. They had every opportunity to know Christ and His teachings. They just didn't accept. Jesus was asking God to be merciful to them. I don't think it would have been appropriate for Christ to say, "Get'em God! Make sure they rot in hell."
How could they have, what? Know his message? Adam & Eve knew that there would be a Messiah long before Christ ever came. But these people were around Him as he taught. They chose not to accept.dilloduck said:How could they have?----he wasn't resurrected yet?
No one before Jesus accepted him as savior and asked him for forgiveness. How could they know he was the way even before he existed on earth?Joz said:How could they have, what? Know his message? Adam & Eve knew that there would be a Messiah long before Christ ever came. But these people were around Him as he taught. They chose not to accept.
Joz said:Well I have to disagree on this point. We are responsible for ourselves. If Christ could do this for us, we all would be saved. Even Lucifer. That's not how it works. We each have to admit our sin, ask for forgiveness and accept that God has done so.
mom4 said:I think what Bonnie meant (anyway, what I meant and Bonnie quoted
Sure they did. That's why people confessed their sins onto spotless lamb & then sacraficed it. It was pointing to the time when THE LAMB would come and atone us for our sins.dilloduck said:No one before Jesus accepted him as savior and asked him for forgiveness. How could they know he was the way even before he existed on earth?
dilloduck said:No one before Jesus accepted him as savior and asked him for forgiveness. How could they know he was the way even before he existed on earth?
