Are globalized corporations unamerican?

[Wiseacre]

How would you define "unamerican"? Who's to say what is contrary to the interests of the American people?

Look guys, if a company has to outsource to stay profitable, would you rather they went out of business? Do you like paying higher prices if they do not outsource?

I think our gov't should do what they can to ensure a level international playing field, but we can't be subsidizing or giving tax breaks to anybody. I'd rather legislate exchange rates with specific foreign currencies if they won't play fair.

I was with you until you limited the ability of government to attract employers. Open the gates and let 'em in.

They will tolerate our EPA to a point to get our infrastructure and educated workforce.

As long as we hold back and don't give them what they want in terms of corporate tax levels, ability to hire, investment credits and other financial incentives that the competition is providing, we will continue to have a problem with unemployment. Big unemployment means big government to take care of the population, small tax revenues and a dying economy.

Oh, look! That's what we've got!

By the by, if we change things this minute, the good effects won't happen for about a year. The time to change things is right now, this minute. The guy who can do it is not currently welcome on Airforce 1.

You're essentially advocating for picking winners and losers, winners being big enough and important enough to warrant special favor and losers being the small fry that don't have the lobbying power. We can't do that, instead we need to make everything as competitive as possible, we need to make it as easy and cheap and quick as possible to get a business up and running. We need to be fostering a business climate in terms of taxing, regulations, HC, energy, everything that adds up to incentivizing somebody to invest here. That's how you open the gates and let 'em in.

No tax breaks, no subsidiies, no special favors. No gov't intervention. At all.

Now, if foreign gov'ts are in some way cheating us, then we take steps. Charge a currency exchange tax, or something to even it out if negotiations don't work. But tariffs and quotas and other forms of protectionism do not benefit anybody in the long run.

And it is not unamerican to buy a foreign product that is cheaper or higher quality than something from the US. Our companies need to understand that they gotta compete on their own or try something else. IMHO, it more unamercian if we do otherwise.

PS: Had to rep you even though I didn't agree. I respect what you said anyway.

 

[code1211]

How would you define "unamerican"? Who's to say what is contrary to the interests of the American people?

Look guys, if a company has to outsource to stay profitable, would you rather they went out of business? Do you like paying higher prices if they do not outsource?

I think our gov't should do what they can to ensure a level international playing field, but we can't be subsidizing or giving tax breaks to anybody. I'd rather legislate exchange rates with specific foreign currencies if they won't play fair.

Each of us live a narrative that we imagine makes sense, but consider you have lived a life of a sort of socialism, nothing wrong with that, but consider instead your job was outsourced because you make too much. Personally I'd be willing to pay more for American made and do whenever I can. Our cars are American, made here for instance. Same with my bikes. If we don't work and produce we may as well turn the lights out.

It's harder and harder to tell what is "American" and what is foreign. Hondas, Toyotas and Isuzus are assembled in Indiana. Chryslers, Chevy's and Fords are not.

Several companies in Indana produce parts for cars made domestically that have foreign nameplates. Those same companies, in many cases, also make parts for "American" Nameplates.

Trying to "Buy American" is less an economic policy for either a country or an individual than it is an empty gesture. The fact is that we live in a Global Economy. If our strategy to cope with this is to live in the 1950's and wish and hope and pray that we do better, then wishes, hopes and prayers will be our major export.

We may, on the other hand, determine that we live in the world of today and make plans that will produce a win for us here and now.

We must not look back in anger or forward in fear, but around with awareness.

 

[code1211]

How would you define "unamerican"? Who's to say what is contrary to the interests of the American people?

Look guys, if a company has to outsource to stay profitable, would you rather they went out of business? Do you like paying higher prices if they do not outsource?

I think our gov't should do what they can to ensure a level international playing field, but we can't be subsidizing or giving tax breaks to anybody. I'd rather legislate exchange rates with specific foreign currencies if they won't play fair.

I was with you until you limited the ability of government to attract employers. Open the gates and let 'em in.

They will tolerate our EPA to a point to get our infrastructure and educated workforce.

As long as we hold back and don't give them what they want in terms of corporate tax levels, ability to hire, investment credits and other financial incentives that the competition is providing, we will continue to have a problem with unemployment. Big unemployment means big government to take care of the population, small tax revenues and a dying economy.

Oh, look! That's what we've got!

By the by, if we change things this minute, the good effects won't happen for about a year. The time to change things is right now, this minute. The guy who can do it is not currently welcome on Airforce 1.

You're essentially advocating for picking winners and losers, winners being big enough and important enough to warrant special favor and losers being the small fry that don't have the lobbying power. We can't do that, instead we need to make everything as competitive as possible, we need to make it as easy and cheap and quick as possible to get a business up and running. We need to be fostering a business climate in terms of taxing, regulations, HC, energy, everything that adds up to incentivizing somebody to invest here. That's how you open the gates and let 'em in.

No tax breaks, no subsidiies, no special favors. No gov't intervention. At all.

Now, if foreign gov'ts are in some way cheating us, then we take steps. Charge a currency exchange tax, or something to even it out if negotiations don't work. But tariffs and quotas and other forms of protectionism do not benefit anybody in the long run.

And it is not unamerican to buy a foreign product that is cheaper or higher quality than something from the US. Our companies need to understand that they gotta compete on their own or try something else. IMHO, it more unamercian if we do otherwise.

PS: Had to rep you even though I didn't agree. I respect what you said anyway.

I guess i wasn't clear.

I was not advocating making a special deal for anyone on the Federal level. Leave that to the individual states. The Feds should just dial it back a notch and figure out what the rest of the world is offering and, if our goal is to be the number one manufacturing power, then construct a system of taxes that is equally applied to ALL companies doing business here and assure that it is the best package for any company to find worldwide.

This would encompass the costs associated with the EPA goons running around intimidating and the extra 16,000 IRS agents doing the same thing. Complying with the costs of the Feds regulating the activities of a company is a cost of doing business. Whatever that cost is, then reduce the cost of the Federal Tax. Don't do this case by case.

Figure out what it is and then change the overall rate and forget it. If we attract more, we did it right. If we don't, we did it wrong and we need to refigure and do it again.

This ain't rocket science. Either the fix worked or it didn't. No amount of explanations will put people in Oklahoma City to work in jobs that are in Seoul.

Ross Perot was fond of saying. "Talk is cheap. Deeds are precious." He was right in that and still is. The Big 0 and his crew do allot of talking and nothing good is happening. Either the whole world is stupid for not going along with their plan or their plan is stupid and we need a change to a plan that has a chance of working.

The guy with the new plan isn't playing golf twice a week.

 

[editec]

Yes like General Electric. In spite of the feel good commercials they are producing.

We bring good commercials to life.
​

 

[DaGoose]

Anyone else amazed at the exceptionally civil discussion taking place in this thread?

.

 

[Anachronism]

I mean where do their loyalties lie? Do they care if America goes down the tubes as long as their profits increase? Same with those who play the global market.

Does America owe them any breaks or support?

No, America and the American people do not owe these companies anything. Regardless of whether it's an American company that does business abroad like Coca Cola, a foreign company that owns business interests here like National Grid, a foreign entity that does business here like Toyota, or an American company that outsources its work like Ford or GM.

These companies need to have it explained to them that their loyalties are in serious question and that they need to make a decision whether they want to be AMERICAN companies (who make products in the US with US workers for the US market) or Foreign companies (who don't get any ability to do business in the US at all); but that they cannot be both. A house divided amongst itself cannot stand.

 

[The Rabbi]

I mean where do their loyalties lie?
Do they care if America goes down the tubes as long as their profits increase?
Same with those who play the global market.

Does America owe them any breaks or support?

Corporations' primary responsibility is to their shareholders. Period.
Is that a problem for you?

 

[Gadawg73]

Ask the shareholders, ordinary middle class Americans by a very large %, what they think of globalization of the corporations they own.
You people do know that all corporations are owned by middle class Americans, DON'T YOU?

 

[editec]

Anyone else amazed at the exceptionally civil discussion taking place in this thread?

.

Yes.

And it is this kind of thread that brings me back to this board.

There are intellectually honest players here whose POVs are worthy of our consideration no matter how much we disagree with them.

I'm of the opinion that honest players each positing their opinions on subjects like this serve us all even if we disagree with their POVs.

If nothing else our philisophical/economic debates help us frame the issue and in many cases help us to see the flaws in our arguments and lead us to what we can only all hope is some kind of higher truth.

The idiotic trolls make such discussions rather difficult.

Some of them do it out of pure spite (because they know they cannot intellectually keep up) and others are sincerely angry and incapable of seeing that honestly decent folks can still have disagreements about topic like this.

The one bit of advice I sincerely wish most of us could accept is this

Our neighbors, our fellow citizens are NOT the enemy.

People who do not have the power to change policy cannot be held responsible for what our LEADERS are doing.

In most cases our leaders are telling us one thing but doing something entirely different, anyway.

So if we fall for their rehetoric, its often because we don't know what they're really doing or don';t understand the longer term outcomes of what they're doing.

FREE TRADE sounds so rational in theory, does it not?

But the practice of it that we have applied in this nation is pretty obviously not doing good things for our economy overall.

Oh it has certainly helped those corporations that SELL to foreign nations to be sure.

But for every job that we gain by exports to most favoried nations, I suspect we've lost 10 jobs to those same nations.

So what does it mean when people say its good for or bad for America?

I think they're imagining that America is just the people THEY think are important.

So when I say that FREE TRDE isn't working out, I mean it is not working out in AGGREGATE.

That the shortcoming of that policy outweight its benefits to the nation AS A WHOLE.

Free trade works out me for beautifully.

But then too, I'm not a former line production worker who lost his job, either, am I?

 

[Gadawg73]

Anyone else amazed at the exceptionally civil discussion taking place in this thread?

.

Yes.

And it is this kind of thread that brings me back to this play.

There are intellectually honest players here whose POVs are worthy of our consideration.

I'm of the opinion that honest players each positing their opinions on subjects like this serve us all even if we disagree with their POVs.

If nothing else our philisophical/economic debates help us frame the issue and in many cases help us to see the flaws in our arguments and lead us to what we can only all hope is some kind of better truth.

The idiotic trolls make such discussion rather difficult.

Some of them do it out of pure spite (because they know they cannot intellectually keep up) and others are sincerely angry and incapable of seeing that honestly decent folks can still have disagreements about topic like this.

Very well said.

 

[Anachronism]

Ask the shareholders, ordinary middle class Americans by a very large %, what they think of globalization of the corporations they own.
You people do know that all corporations are owned by middle class Americans, DON'T YOU?

So far as I'm concerned those shareholders should not have that sort of option. AMERICAN Companies should not have the option of doing business overseas or engaging foreign workers to do their work. Pure and simple. Likewise foreign companies should not have the option of doing business here in the United States.

Yes, I am both a Nationalist and an Isolationist. I always have been and likely always will be.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I mean where do their loyalties lie?
Do they care if America goes down the tubes as long as their profits increase?
Same with those who play the global market.

Does America owe them any breaks or support?

Are foreign companies who have a large presence in the US un( which ever country of origin)?
For example is Samsung "un-South Korean"?
Is Toyota "un-Japanese"?
Are you serious with this thread?

 

[sparky]

I mean where do their loyalties lie?
Do they care if America goes down the tubes as long as their profits increase?
Same with those who play the global market.

Does America owe them any breaks or support?

Corporations are not "unAmerican."

America doesn't owe corporations anything. .

were that true, the scotus would not have allowed corporatism to buy legilsture via citizens united vs, fec Toro

so while i'll agree 'we the people' are not mutually exclusive from corporatism, we are also not subserviant to thier constitutionally challenged machinations

~S~

 

[Gadawg73]

Ask the shareholders, ordinary middle class Americans by a very large %, what they think of globalization of the corporations they own.
You people do know that all corporations are owned by middle class Americans, DON'T YOU?

So far as I'm concerned those shareholders should not have that sort of option. AMERICAN Companies should not have the option of doing business overseas or engaging foreign workers to do their work. Pure and simple. Likewise foreign companies should not have the option of doing business here in the United States.

Yes, I am both a Nationalist and an Isolationist. I always have been and likely always will be.

So Caterpillar should be prosecuted for selling bulldozers to areas in the world where there is massive consetruction taking place?
And their workers should suffer as a result of that?
And you want government to run all private American business dictating what they can and can't do?
Foreign trade is what started this great nation. What you advocate will make us a 3rd world socialist communal country.

 

[xsited1]

Yes like General Electric. In spite of the feel good commercials they are producing.

Anytime the leaders of a corporation like General Electric engage in Crony Capitalism with high-level politicians (e.g., Barack Obama), I would consider both the leaders of the corporation and the politicians unAmerican and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

 

[Anachronism]

So Caterpillar should be prosecuted for selling bulldozers to areas in the world where there is massive consetruction taking place?
And their workers should suffer as a result of that?
And you want government to run all private American business dictating what they can and can't do?
Foreign trade is what started this great nation. What you advocate will make us a 3rd world socialist communal country.

Caterpillar should have the option to either become an American company or a Foreign company. If they wish to remain an American company they would be required to cease all activity to foreign customers. Now, that's not to say that some portion of the Caterpillar ownership could not choose to leave the USA and to start a totally separate entity outside the US doing the same thing. However there could not be any communication between the two entities.

I don't want the US Government running ANY private business. However, since these businesses have shown an inability and/or unwillingness to maintain an America First mentality, they now need to be FORCED to choose which side of the fence they're on.

Foreign trade had its place in this country. Unfortunately our business and industry owners no longer have the proper mentality to be able to maintain that without selling their own souls and this country down the river for a few pennies. Therefore they can no longer be trusted to engage in such activities.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I mean where do their loyalties lie?
Do they care if America goes down the tubes as long as their profits increase?
Same with those who play the global market.

Does America owe them any breaks or support?

I wholeheartedly agree. The effects of globalization has been devastating to blue-collar America.

I was speaking with my boss the other day, we live in Georgia, about the new illegal immigration bill that is being legally challenged with several South American governments support. He pointed to the AJC's front page story on a shortage of agriculture workers, saying that isn't any American workers that would do that job. He is correct they wouldn't do those jobs for the current pay that has been artificially reduced by the availability of a cheap exploitable underclass.

I contend that it is this idea of globalization that drives Barack "Citizen of the World" Obama to do absolutely nothing about immigration policy. He recently stated that people that come to America by way of slave boat or the Rio Grand we are both equally American.

The globalization of corporate America is treasonous. I think it is Constitutional and essential to American workers that Congress requires American corporations to operate within the bounds of America, and increase tariffs on all imports. Call it isolationism, I call it returning to a proven economic strategy that gave rise to the modern world.

America needs to start leading again, unfortunately that won't be possible while we have a president that is gleefully presiding over its' decline.

About tariffs....Number one, trade wars are unproductive. Nobody wins.
Two, why should American consumers take the shit for the mistakes of previous governments? Tariffs will disproportionately affect consumers because the additional costs always land on the end user.
It is US federal regulations combined with the highest corporate income tax in the industrialized world that has led to American companies going global.
And beside that there are still lots of employers here in the US and they aren't going anywhere.
"Proven economic strategy that gave rise to the modern world". Profoundly written, but untrue.

 

[thereisnospoon]

How would you define "unamerican"? Who's to say what is contrary to the interests of the American people?

Look guys, if a company has to outsource to stay profitable, would you rather they went out of business? Do you like paying higher prices if they do not outsource?

I think our gov't should do what they can to ensure a level international playing field, but we can't be subsidizing or giving tax breaks to anybody. I'd rather legislate exchange rates with specific foreign currencies if they won't play fair.

Each of us live a narrative that we imagine makes sense, but consider you have lived a life of a sort of socialism, nothing wrong with that, but consider instead your job was outsourced because you make too much. Personally I'd be willing to pay more for American made and do whenever I can. Our cars are American, made here for instance. Same with my bikes. If we don't work and produce we may as well turn the lights out.

\Are you sure your cars are "American"?
Answer this ...
Which is more "American"?
Model. Ford Fusion.....parts content about 65% Foreign made...All vehicles built in Mexico
Model Toyota Tundra.....Parts content about 60% US made.....all vehicles built in assembly plants in Texas...
Answer the question...Then open the hood of your car an look at any labels on the parts to see where they are made...
Did you know that for over two decades Ford has been building trucks and in those trucks the drive train is made by........Mitsubishi?

 

[Sallow]

I mean where do their loyalties lie?
Do they care if America goes down the tubes as long as their profits increase?
Same with those who play the global market.

Does America owe them any breaks or support?

Corporations are not "unAmerican."

America doesn't owe corporations anything. America has to have a competitive and attractive environment to attract and retain corporations, who create jobs and are the engine of growth. Without corporations, the economy would collapse. Without a strong business community, America will wither. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The discussion is not about "corporations"..it's about a new form of monopoly. Which is antithetical to Capitalism.

Capitalism without competition is not capitalism. It is corporatism.

 

[Sallow]

Yes like General Electric. In spite of the feel good commercials they are producing.

Anytime the leaders of a corporation like General Electric engage in Crony Capitalism with high-level politicians (e.g., Barack Obama), I would consider both the leaders of the corporation and the politicians unAmerican and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Yeah..this probably went off like a light bulb in your head just now.

:ding: