anti-israel sentiment of the democratic party, and why i cant support them.

[Shogun]

Oh goody...another rant. The fact that you can compare the existence of Israel with nazis, the Iraq War and Andy Jackson speaks volumes. For someone so compassionate, it seems that your compassion doesn't extend beyond the borders of the Gaza.
What I will say is I don't want bloodshed either and if the Palestinians wanted a peace that would leave Israel with defensible borders, they'd have it. It is THEY who have repeatedly rejected peace, even when Rabin and Barak were in charge. Have you ever heard any Palestinian leader say Israel should be anything but sent into the sea?
Again, I asked a simple question: what is your solution that LEAVES BOTH ... read that again... BOTH groups autonomous and defensible?
I'm still waiting...
And now I'm going to atone for my sins of omission and comission, you?

Indeed, how DARE someone compare the sins of Israel with anyone else?!?! I should have known being chosen meant that one is impervious to criticism and comparison to other examples of social domination of a minority ethnicity. duh. silly me. Must be that jew hating antisemitism kicking in again.

Hell, why WOULDNT the natives have realized that all they had to do was swallow a bitter pill and put themselves onto a reservation? of COURSE that's the solution: blame the oppressed for their opression. Fuck, it never dawned on me to consider that it was the blacks fault for not LIKING to pick cotton! If you don't get it, Jill, then so be it. You can wrap yourself up as tight as you want in your zionist fantasy and let the cycle keep going and going until either the pals are genocided out of Israel (ooops, my bad, of COURSE jews are genetically incapable of genocide!) or the treatment of pals gives all those muslim nations enough motivation to find a crack in shield that is the United States. But hey.. at least YOU will be able to say it's their fault, right jill?

By all means.. quote me where i've insinuated a desire to ANYONE to shed blood. But don't let that stop you from assuming the same old tired ass routine, ok? I keep telling you that Im probably a jew hating anti-semite just to save you from the trouble of typing it yourself. You see, that shit gets real old. But, i'll be a sport. If you can quote me where i've given the slightest indication that I WANT jews to shed blood then feel free to bitchslap me with a quote. I'll wait.

What you refuse to consider by making such lame fucking statements is that the way to peace, if you can keep from giving me the Rabin treatment for a second, is through embracing the pals rather than segregating them away like some 1930s restroom. Ill give you this very nation as an example. Blacks reacted to marginalization violently too. Whites had NO PROBLEM blaming the marginalization on very much the same type of shit you've posted already. It's THEM. ALWAYS THEM. Here we are in the 21st century a stronger nation because we looked for EQUALITY rather than ETHNIC SEGREGATION and FAVORATISM despite our COMMON HISTORY. do you think BLACKS were all about peace after they got a taste of freedom while still being oppressed? It took 100 years for the emancipation Proclimation to get to the 1960s, Jill. I get the feeling you would have been goose stepping right behind whitey nd labeling the violent reaction from blacks as terrorists and the perfect example why they were slaves in the first place. Stop trying to sweep humanity under the rug. If you can marginalize then you can BE marginalized. Id suggest you swallow your fucking pride and look for a peaceful solution while you can instead of trying to be a hardass while the US (and nukes) is the only thing keeping Israel around. You can take from that what you want to. If all you just read was "i hate jewsw I hate jews I hate jews I hate jews" then so be it. You are as much a part of a peaceful solution for Israel as a bleeding ulcer is to healthy digestion.


Ill be happy to participate in brainstorming solutions for peace in Palisrael next week. I'm pretty sure that you wont go for anything that lets pals off of their knees though. Equality must me a scary thing to some people. Heaven forbid a pal and a jew get the same legal application in Israel. Keep in mind.. anyhting ILL suggest would also be doable in the US. THis means no favoratism for the sake of racism. Uh, not that jews are genetically capable of being racist, right?

 

[jillian]

In other words, you have no response....

thanks for playing

 

[doniston]

I can name another religious group that turned useless land into farm land and for their effort were denied control of their Territory and the US Army even sent an invasion force to fight them.

But they did not suffer nearly the problems of the Jewish people. The ignorance of those opposed to Israel is appalling and the rampant anti-semite stance of whole regions and Countries of the world is shameful.

Speak for yourself when you speak of ignorance sir. You apparently know little of what you are talking about.

 

[doniston]

Shogun, thanks for the reply. I have to wonder about a couple things, though.
First thing I noticed was that you called the article I asked you to read for the sake of me not having to type so much (I slept through typing class twice, and my lousy habits prove that! LOL!) "cherished" and I don't believe I called it as such. I'm thinking that it is not your personal opinion of the article, so I will have to assume that you are attempting to be either sarcastic or condescending. I have noticed a condescending attitude here on this board before. Makes me wonder if people actually want new blood here or if they prefer an inbred environment. Still, I will assume this is merely a quality in you that I will eventually find endearing.

I noticed that your writings on the turn of the last century "Palestine" is missing a few points and has other, less than factual points, added.
First, let me start with the very name, "Palestinian" as it is commonly meant to refer to the Arabs living in the region. Fact of the matter is this was a creation of Yasser Arafat for political reasons. It makes it sound as if they are some sort of indigenous people who have in the past had some sort of country and government in the region. This is not true. First, back in, say, 1915 (picked it out of the air, don't get hung up on the year), had you called an Arab wandering through the region a "Palestinian" he would have taken it as an offense as the Jews of the region were generally considered to be Palestinians. The Arabs of the region weren't organized, had no government, lived in squalid conditions when they did live in permanent homes and did little to improve the land or their conditions. Raids on neighboring communities were not unheard of for financial gain. The condition of Palestine (a name for the region that is a variation of the renaming by Rome in the attempts to erase the Jew's history and memory of the area in response to the Jewish rebellion to Roman rule) has been recorded by those seeing it first hand. Here is from The Report of the Palestine Royal Commision, an account of the Maritime Plain in 1913:
The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport by camels and carts...no orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached [the Jewish village of] Yabna [Yavne]....Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere to be seen....The ploughs used were of wood....The yields were very poor....The sanitary conditions in the village were horrible. Schools did not exist....The western part, towards the sea, was almost a desert....The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.
There are other quotes one can find, but one is enough to paint the picture.
Now, keep in mind that at no time was there NOT a Jewish presence in Zion, and never did the Jews do anything but want to come back home. That is to say, the land had been forcefully taken from them on more than one occasion but never did they give up claim.
When the Jews began coming home, they brought with them not only the knowledge but the desire to turn what varied from a desert wasteland to malarial swamps into beautiful, cultivated land. It was they who created the bread basket that today provides Europe with not only flowers and oranges but also otehr fruits and vegetable. Between the farms and the industries, everyone and not just the Jews benefited.

You make mention of the fighting between the Arabs and the Jews, but you fail to make mention of the instigators, the lies and the pogroms carried out against the Jews. While it would be insane to suggest the Jews didn't strike back, it would be equally insane or dishonest to not acknowledge that the strife was created by the Arabs. It was these pogroms that caused the partitioning, and, if you look at what was originally promised to the Jews and what was eventually allocated to them, a sliver of land that was barely contigious and would be declared non-defendable by anybody else, you'd have to admit that these people got the short end of the stick. Consider also, that while no Jew was allowed to live in Transjordan, the Jews did not receive a piece of dirt that they could call all their own. Even so, they accepted the agreement as is.

Your assertion that the War of Independence was in response to rapes, murders and land-stealing on the part of the Jews is not only false, it is a total lie, whether you believe you created it or whether you are simply passing on a lie not knowing it is one. Your claims of murders and rapes go untold in history, never have they been claimed before. The rapes is more than laughable as a Jewish man would NOT have done that with a goy. The assertion that the land was stolen is false as well, unless you figure that purchasing land at fair value from non-residing land owners and ONLY "fellahs" who are no longer living on or working the land to be "stealing". The attack on the tiny Jewish state by the Arab world occured because they would not tolerate a Jewish nation in their midst. Period.

In regard to you being Athiest, that is your choice, and that choice is due to your G-d given free will. This being the case, though, you will have difficulty in quoting from the Bible and making sense out of it, so you might want to not attempt it much. You claim that my head is in a dark place. I noticed several personal and angry attacks in your responses even though I have made it a point to show respect and courtesy to you. I could just as easily point out that your head must be somewhere other than squarely on your shoulders if you claim to have read Revelation and not see prophesy in the fulfilling as it is happening today. Of course, to get a clear understanding you'd need to read and understand Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Matthew at the minimum, but if you did you'd have a different frame of mind about the whole "fairy tale" in general, so I really don't expect you to do so with that less than open mind and not so loving heart you seem to be laboring with. This being the case, I'm not even going to bother returning scripture quote with accurate scripture quote. There is another scripture verse in the "fairy tale" that says something about throwing pearls to swine, or something like that; I think this is a good time to practice that piece of divine advice.

I was really hoping that you were going to shed some light on something that I have previously missed, but you haven't. At least you didn't throw the myth of Deir Yassin at me; thanks for at least not being that insulting!

Thanks for your time!

So mish-mashed it is not worthy of the time to sort it out.

 

[jillian]

So mish-mashed it is not worthy of the time to sort it out.

I'd say it's pretty clear if you have any concept of the actual history of the region.

 

[doniston]

I'd say it's pretty clear if you have any concept of the actual history of the region.

You say lots of things that don't ring true.

 

[jillian]

You say lots of things that don't ring true.

And you repeat lies about a country you know nothing about and don't undestand. Yet, the things you sanction would result in the destruction of that country.

I wouldn't expect you to get truth.

 

[Gunny]

You say lots of things that don't ring true.

I await your posting evidence to support this statement with baited breath. Put up or shut up ....

 

[doniston]

I await your posting evidence to support this statement with baited breath. Put up or shut up ....

do you know hat I actually said? or are you just spinning it? I can no more prove my opinions than she can prove I am wrong. I am going bynevidence andc accounts going back 60 years. Hers is revisionist history.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

do you know hat I actually said? or are you just spinning it? I can no more prove my opinions than she can prove I am wrong. I am going bynevidence andc accounts going back 60 years. Hers is revisionist history.

Which is it? You have no evidence OR your going on accounts and evidence going back 60 years?

 

[Shogun]

oh jillie.. I have plenty of things to respond with...


you see, it's just that it's the weekend and that pesky thing called real life beckons me away from this pleasant conversation.


See you on Monday.

 

[doniston]

Which is it? You have no evidence OR your going on accounts and evidence going back 60 years?

Why do you ask a question that has already been answered? Didn't you understand the first time? I said it VERY plainly.

 

[jillian]

Why do you ask a question that has already been answered? Didn't you understand the first time? I said it VERY plainly.

Actually, what you said plainly was that what I said didn't "ring true". In other words, you called me a liar.

So...the grand mufti of Jersusalem DIDN'T tell his people to leave?

The Arabs DIDN'T attack Israel repeatedly?

Israel DIDN'T win land each of those times?

Which part didn't ring true for you? I'd suggest none of it... you just don't like that I don't engage in revisionist history?

Essentially, I don't think either has totally clean hands, though I think Israel's are cleaner. I'd suggest that's irrelevant, however in resolving the issues.

So, I'll ask you what I asked my friend Shogun... how would you resolve the issue that allows BOTH peoples autonomy and defensible borders? Perhaps you can answer in a way that wouldn't leave Israel not existing as a Jewish State.

 

[jillian]

oh jillie.. I have plenty of things to respond with...


you see, it's just that it's the weekend and that pesky thing called real life beckons me away from this pleasant conversation.


See you on Monday.

Fair enough, Shogie..

Have a lovely weekend.

 

[GHook93]

Actually not. it has been considered that very little land was actually purchased from the land owners Approximately 4 percent.

Why not back up your baseless statement with proof!

I will give it a try!

Here is the population and land ownership in 1945, before the 1948 war of independence and before the Palestinians left their lands.

By district
The following table gives the demographics of each of the 16 districts of the Mandate.

Demographics of Palestine by district as of 1945

District - Muslim % - Jewish % - Christian % - Total
Acre.................51,130 69%.....3,030 4%.....11,800 16%....73,600
Beersheba...........6,270 90%........510 7%..........210 3%......7,000
Beisan...............16,660 67%....7,590 30%..........680 3%....24,950
Gaza...............145,700 97%......3,540 2%........1,300 1%..150,540
Haifa.................95,970 38%.119,020 47%.....33,710 13%..253,450
Hebron...............92,640 99%......300 <1%.........170 <1%....93,120
Jaffa..................95,980 24%.295,160 72%......17,790 4%...409,290
Jenin..................60,000 98%.Negligible <1%......1,210 2%....61,210
Jerusalem..........104,460 42%..102,520 40%.....46,130 18%.253,270
Nablus................92,810 98%.Negligible <1%.......1,560 2%...94,600
Nazareth.............30,160 60%.....7,980 16%.....11,770 24%...49,910
Ramallah.............40,520 83%.Negligible <1%.....8,410 17%....48,930
Ramle..................95,590 71%....31,590 24%.......5,840 4%.134,030
Safad..................47,310 83%......7,170 13%.......1,630 3%...56,970
Tiberias...............23,940 58%.....13,640 33%.......2,470 6%...41,470
Tulkarm...............76,460 82%.....16,180 17%..........380 1%...93,220
Total.........1,076,780 58% ...608,230 33%.....145,060 9%.1,845,560
Data from the Survey of Palestine[45]

Let's see 58% Muslim to 33% Jewish. I highly doubt the Jews were renting land from the Muslims, because of all the hostilities and pograms. So where was this 33% of the population living? On land purchasd by Jews, prehaps?

Here is another statistic of that states land ownership, again prior to the '48war and before the Palestinians abandon their lands.

Land Ownership by district
The following table shows the land ownership of Palestine by district:

Land ownership of Palestine by district as of 1945
District - Arab owned - Jewish owned - Public and other
Acre..................87%...............3%.................10%
Beersheba..........15%..............<1%.................85%
Beisan................44%..............34%................22%
Gaza..................75%................4%................21%
Haifa..................42%..............35%................23%
Hebron................96%..............<1%.................4%
Jaffa...................47%..............39%................14%
Jenin..................84%...............<1%................16%
Jerusalem.............84%...............2%................14%
Nablus.................87%..............<1%...............13%
Nazareth..............52%..............28%................20%
Ramallah...............99%..............<1%.................1%
Ramle...................77%..............14%.................9%
Safad...................68%..............18%................14%
Tiberias.................51%.............38%.................11%
Tulkarm.................78%.............17%...................5%
Data from the Land Ownership of Palestine[51]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

Let's see: 9 out of the 16 districts were above thr 4%! 8 out of the 16 are in double digits. Any you can see at least 6 of the districts that had a tiny percent of Jewish Land ownership are located in the Palestinian Territories: Hebron, Gaza, Jenin, Ramallah, Nablus and Acre!

That 4% claim is propaganda!

 

[Shogun]

Ok, J-I-L-L-I-A-N,

lets start this thing.


Ill open with a few standing requirements and give you a chance to place your own initial standing requirements.

1. There will be a homeland for jews and pals. Be it two seperate nations or a common nation shared. Seperate nations would require the elimination of the wall and redistribution back to equal territory for both. If you want to bring up old shit to justify a jewish advantage then so will they while rationalizing violence. Jerusalem gets shared between both states OR becomes the capitol of Palisrael.


2. Equality despite ethnicity. No favoratism of jews or pals in either two seperate states or one single common state. This is the standard that we live with in America and nothing will rock the cycle of violence until everyone on both sides understands that they function on an equal paying field despite race. How much do you really want peace? Why would anyone embrace a system that clearly favors a particular ethnicity?


3. Invest in pals like we invested in those who were previously our slaves. The quickest way to give pals a stake in peace is with affirmative action-type strategies. Limited to 20 years. Pals, like our blacks, will respond to individual opportunity given. Israel can use this to convey to the Muslim world that it wants to incorporate pals into their society beyond an excuse to build a wall AND, most imporantly, would remove the biggest thorn in the heel of peace: how muslims see Israel treating pals. If muslims see Israel treating the pals well then the air gets sucked out of their excuse for making war with Israel. Take Iran, for instance. Their main diatribe against Israel is how creation has been used, as resulted from a holocaust, to create israel despite the pals who, like it or not, was there when israel was created. Remove this excuse to hate jews, with the evidence of prosporus pals in Israel society, and you remove the cause for a lot of the rhetoric against Israel, thus, a step towards peace.




ok.. your turn.

 

[maineman]

I know I am not Jillian, but.....

oddly enough...there are elements of the above that I have always agreed with.

I am not entirely sure that there requires EQUAL territory for both, but some return to previously agreed borders makes sense....pre '67 perhaps, or maybe even back to '48 at the ceasefire lines.

I also agree with an internationalized Jerusalem - and if Israel had agreed to it in '81, so would have Arafat.

I also agree that the US invest in palestine to the same extent we invest in Israel, but only if they truly renounce violence and effectively eliminate it.

 

[doniston]

Actually, what you said plainly was that what I said didn't "ring true". In other words, you called me a liar.

So...the grand mufti of Jersusalem DIDN'T tell his people to leave?

The Arabs DIDN'T attack Israel repeatedly?

Israel DIDN'T win land each of those times?

Which part didn't ring true for you? I'd suggest none of it... you just don't like that I don't engage in revisionist history?

Essentially, I don't think either has totally clean hands, though I think Israel's are cleaner. I'd suggest that's irrelevant, however in resolving the issues.

So, I'll ask you what I asked my friend Shogun... how would you resolve the issue that allows BOTH peoples autonomy and defensible borders? Perhaps you can answer in a way that wouldn't leave Israel not existing as a Jewish State.

I said no such thing

my words say that I doubt what you say, and it is quite obvous that you are engaging in revisionist history.., If you want to beleive that is calling you a liar. then so be it. beleive as you will. As for your last question. IMHO there will never be a fair way to resolve the matter, Israel was totally in the wrong in their treatment of the then residents of the area. However, the best possible outcome would be for Israel to withdraw back to the originally determined borders. that would be the fairest outcome, and the only hope for peace in the area.

 

[GHook93]

However, the best possible outcome would be for Israel to withdraw back to the originally determined borders. that would be the fairest outcome, and the only hope for peace in the area.

NO Shit, but groups with significant influence in Palestine (Hamas and Islamic Jihad) won't accept it. All they will accept is the Jewish Israelis committing mass-suicide!

 

[Shogun]

too bad you cannot fathom how embracing of pals would minimize the radical element exactly like how OUR AMERICAN interaction with the black population in assuring their EQUALITY has provided a drastic reduction in the social discontent of their perspective of America.


But.. I guess some people kinda like having the excuse to remain dominant around... lord knows how whites in the south reacted.. certainly isnt reflective of Israel.. nope. never. that would be antisemetic.