Another look at those 'gubmint' schools. . . .

[Samson]

Another look at those 'gubmint' schools. . . .

America pays way too much for education compared with other industrialized countries. I wish the US would cut educational spending so that I'd have more money to spend on private education for my kids.

Comparing education in the USA's with other industrialized countries is absurd.

 

[2Parties]

The maximum award for the 2008-09 award year is $4,731.

Dude, what school can we attend for $4,731/year?

You have no grasp of economics. Congratulations.

 

[EriktheRed]

Even in a home-schooled environment, if the kid's not motivated to learn then I don't think it'll make much of a difference. Public education isn't perfect, but is any human institution perfect? I think public ed does a decent but not great job overall. Private schools are a good alternative if you've got the money, and home schooling can be a valid option for certain families, too.

Our public education system could be better, I think. We don't do to well compared to other developed nations, but... isn't public eduction the primary source of schooling in those countries, too? I think the problem isn't that education is publicly funded, it's how the system is set up. And, of course, parenting and cultural attitudes play a factor in this, too. Some parents could be great home schoolers, other not so much. Some families can afford a private tutor, or private schooling, others not so much.

This is one of those things where I think we could look to Western Europe and parts of Asia to see what those countries do and how that my translate to our shores. I don't know if that makes me a socialist commie or not.

IMHO, it just makes you sensible.

 

[Samson]

The maximum award for the 2008-09 award year is $4,731.

Dude, what school can we attend for $4,731/year?

You have no grasp of economics. Congratulations.

Coming from a deep thinker like you............

 

[Foxfyre]

I am not opposed to public education but it needs to be local. The federal government should get out of it entirely other than to accumulate and dispense statistics.

Have you ever looked at the budget for your local school district?

It is online.

How much of the budget is from the feds?

What programs do the Feds support?

You can look it up or believe me: The Feds mainly support Free and Reduced Meal programs, and Special Ed.

If you're in an urban area, then the feds might contribute 30% of the budget.

I haven't looked at it for awhile, but working from memory, the Albuquerque Public School has a census of about 87000 students making it one of the largest school districts in the country. I believe they have a budget around 1.2 billion and I am guessing that just under half of that comes from the federal government in one way or another and the per capita expense per student is one of the highest in the country.

And we are usually at or right at the bottom in education excellence when compared to the other states.

I don't think we're getting our money's worth.

 

[Samson]

I am not opposed to public education but it needs to be local. The federal government should get out of it entirely other than to accumulate and dispense statistics.

Have you ever looked at the budget for your local school district?

It is online.

How much of the budget is from the feds?

What programs do the Feds support?

You can look it up or believe me: The Feds mainly support Free and Reduced Meal programs, and Special Ed.

If you're in an urban area, then the feds might contribute 30% of the budget.

I haven't looked at it for awhile, but working from memory, the Albuquerque Public School has a census of about 87000 students making it one of the largest school districts in the country. I believe they have a budget around 1.2 billion and I am guessing that just under half of that comes from the federal government in one way or another and the per capita expense per student is one of the highest in the country.

And we are usually at or right at the bottom in education excellence when compared to the other states.

I don't think we're getting our money's worth.

Here is the 2009-2010 Budget for APS see page 12.

The Total Consolidated funds are $1,268,418,912.00

Federal Grants are $142,077,561.00 or roughly 11% of the budget. A far cry from your guess of 50% (and, to be honest, much less than the 30% I would have expected in an urban area).

 

[Ravi]

Dude is up to his eyeballs in non USMB stuff today, but took time to toss me the following blurb on education. So this is his thread as much as mine.

The thesis is that good parents are able to realign priorities and do what they have to do to get it done where their kids are concerned. And they generally do it better than what we are seeing from the government these days.

Education. As Kevin and Deanna Daum were spiraling toward bankruptcy in 2009, they decided they could live without their two cars, their two residences, and most niceties. But they insisted on keeping up tuition payments for their son, then a senior at a private high school. Many Americans seems to feel likewise. While data doesn't readily show how much families spend on schooling, many families say they've given up other things in order to protect their kids' education, whether it's private school or college, tutoring, enrichment programs or school-related activities. Private school enrollments fell by less than one percent from 2008 to 2010, and college enrollments have gone up over the last couple of years. That's partly because jobs are scarce, but also because Americans simply value education. "This is an investment that pays off very well," says Sandy Baum, an economist at the College Board. "People are willing to borrow for it and they know that it's shortsighted to forego it."
10 Things We Can't Live Without - Yahoo! Finance

All across the country we see parents making great personal sacrifices to pay for good schools or to homeschool their kids with very positive results being posted for their effort. Students who attend private school or who are homeschooled are far more likely to graduate highschool, are far more likely to post high ACT and SAT scores, and are far more likely to go on to higher learning than are public schooled kids. Further they are less likely to get involved in illegal activities, are less likely to have run ins with the law, and are usually very well adjusted socially.

Would this not suggest that we need to start backing the federal government out of most of education rather than pushing for more and more ‘investment’ of tax dollars and other government involvement?

Is it not possible that good parents can and will do a better job for their kids than will the government?

Incorrect. Most information from Dud is.

This belief, though widespread, has not held up to careful scrutiny. A growing body of work has shown that the quality of education offered to students varies widely within all school categories. The public, private, charter and religious realms all contain schools that range from good to not so good to downright horrendous.
This point was underscored last week when the United States Education Department released a controversial and long-awaited report comparing public and private schools in terms of student achievement as measured on the federal math and reading tests known as the National Assessment of Educational Progress. As with previous studies, this one debunked the widely held belief that public schools were inferior to their private and religious counterparts. The private schools appeared to have an achievement advantage when the raw scores of students were considered alone. But those perceived advantages melted away when the researchers took into account variables like race, gender and parents’ education and income.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/opinion/19wed2.html

 

[jillian]

These are all great ideas in a Utopian World, but who is going to teach the parents how to teach the kids they homeschool?

Near as I can tell, people only homeschool because of religious or political extremism.

btw, can we get it so any thread where the O/P can't spell the word government automatically goes into the flame section?

 

[amrchaos]

Good idea! Screw the poor people, which is exactly what Thomas Jefferson DID NOT want.

Are you suggesting that poor parents aren't good?

Take care with this issue

Not every one can home school their kids

Not everyone can pay for private schools

Not everyone have the alternatives that some "Good Parents" have.

Ignore this, and the nation will first submerge into true ignorance, then excessive Crime.

Kind of like what Mexico did.

 

[amrchaos]

These are all great ideas in a Utopian World, but who is going to teach the parents how to teach the kids they homeschool?

Near as I can tell, people only homeschool because of religious or political extremism.

btw, can we get it so any thread where the O/P can't spell the word government automatically goes into the flame section?

Start up a thread that ask that question!!

I say no

Sometimes, A play on a word spelling is useful! Of course I can't spell worth a damn so....

 

[random3434]

Good idea! Screw the poor people, which is exactly what Thomas Jefferson DID NOT want.

Are you suggesting that poor parents aren't good?

Take care with this issue

Not every one can home school their kids

Not everyone can pay for private schools

Not everyone have the alternatives that some "Good Parents" have.

Ignore this, and the nation will first submerge into true ignorance, then excessive Crime.

Kind of like what Mexico did.

Good Points. People cry about how Public Education sucks, yet what are THEY doing to try and change it, besides bitiching about it on a message board. How many have been in a classroom helping out I wonder?

Inner City children need better options as they enter high school, I wish there were more vocational options for them in high school, to motivate them to stay in school.

If we want to break the cycle of poverty, we need to educate these kids the best way possible. Home schooling and private schooling isn't a option for every kid in America. Less testing, and more life skills/job skills for those not on the college track would be a good start.

 

[random3434]

These are all great ideas in a Utopian World, but who is going to teach the parents how to teach the kids they homeschool?

Near as I can tell, people only homeschool because of religious or political extremism.

btw, can we get it so any thread where the O/P can't spell the word government automatically goes into the flame section?

Hell, if we put every thread where the title is misspelled in the Flame Zone, it would be 2,000,000 pages!

 

[jillian]

These are all great ideas in a Utopian World, but who is going to teach the parents how to teach the kids they homeschool?

Near as I can tell, people only homeschool because of religious or political extremism.

btw, can we get it so any thread where the O/P can't spell the word government automatically goes into the flame section?

Hell, if we put every thread where the title is misspelled in the Flame Zone, it would be 2,000,000 pages!

fair enough.

you're a teacher, EZ. tell me, is it one big conspiracy to brain wash kids into being evil secular libruls?

 

[Valerie]

Near as I can tell, people only homeschool because of religious or political extremism.

btw, can we get it so any thread where the O/P can't spell the word government automatically goes into the flame section?

Hell, if we put every thread where the title is misspelled in the Flame Zone, it would be 2,000,000 pages!

fair enough.

you're a teacher, EZ. tell me, is it one big conspiracy to brain wash kids into being evil secular libruls?

 

[Foxfyre]

These are all great ideas in a Utopian World, but who is going to teach the parents how to teach the kids they homeschool?

Near as I can tell, people only homeschool because of religious or political extremism.

btw, can we get it so any thread where the O/P can't spell the word government automatically goes into the flame section?

Normally I wouldn't mispell words intentionally in the thread title or in a post, but that's the way it was spelled when the idea was presented to me, it sort of caught the flavor of the thesis, and it certainly attracted immediate attention in a way I think the correct spelling might not have accomplished. But I'll take my appropriate licking for what must be a failed attempt at humor and/or irony.

It wouldn't have been humorous or ironic, however, if almost all kids beyond a certain age could spell 'government'. It has been my experience that isn't always that way, however.

And I can assure you that people don't homeschool only because of religious or political extremism. There are about 150 kids in the AWANA program sponsored by my church alone, most are homeschooled, and many of the parents of those kids are not active in either the church or politics. But they are passionate about education and serious about protecting their kids from some of the worst elements of the public schools. So they homeschool. Do you honestly believe that such people are abnormal in some way? If so, that would be really sad.

 

[Dr Gregg]

Dude is up to his eyeballs in non USMB stuff today, but took time to toss me the following blurb on education. So this is his thread as much as mine.

The thesis is that good parents are able to realign priorities and do what they have to do to get it done where their kids are concerned. And they generally do it better than what we are seeing from the government these days.

Education. As Kevin and Deanna Daum were spiraling toward bankruptcy in 2009, they decided they could live without their two cars, their two residences, and most niceties. But they insisted on keeping up tuition payments for their son, then a senior at a private high school. Many Americans seems to feel likewise. While data doesn't readily show how much families spend on schooling, many families say they've given up other things in order to protect their kids' education, whether it's private school or college, tutoring, enrichment programs or school-related activities. Private school enrollments fell by less than one percent from 2008 to 2010, and college enrollments have gone up over the last couple of years. That's partly because jobs are scarce, but also because Americans simply value education. "This is an investment that pays off very well," says Sandy Baum, an economist at the College Board. "People are willing to borrow for it and they know that it's shortsighted to forego it."
10 Things We Can't Live Without - Yahoo! Finance

All across the country we see parents making great personal sacrifices to pay for good schools or to homeschool their kids with very positive results being posted for their effort. Students who attend private school or who are homeschooled are far more likely to graduate highschool, are far more likely to post high ACT and SAT scores, and are far more likely to go on to higher learning than are public schooled kids. Further they are less likely to get involved in illegal activities, are less likely to have run ins with the law, and are usually very well adjusted socially.

Would this not suggest that we need to start backing the federal government out of most of education rather than pushing for more and more ‘investment’ of tax dollars and other government involvement?

Is it not possible that good parents can and will do a better job for their kids than will the government?

The only reason they are better is money, no? More money for more qualified teachers? Which one has more money into it, a private or a public school? I'm asking, I don't know.

I do like the voucher idea, as its proven to be a success in countries that have done it, and hold schools accountable for poor quality of education, and even makes them be a bit more frugal with their dollars.

I'm wondering if its even feasible to get the system into place here.

 

[Dr Gregg]

That's possible but the statistics, ACT and SAT scoresm, etc. don't support it. I'm sure a few duds are produced among homeschooled kids--we are dealing with fallable human beings here--but my experience among several programs (Junior Rodeo, AWANA, et al) heavily populated with homeschooled kids, the appearance of success is pretty stunning.

SATs are not a good indicator of how smart someone is or well educated they are. It just means they can cram well or are good at taking a certain type of test.

It's why colleges across the country are moving away from them.

I know. It pissed me off, I got a very high SAT score, and thought I'd get in wherever I wanted.

Didn't happen.

I didn't do that well, and really sucked at verbal (420 highest I ever got) and I went on to get my PhD. It's such crap IMO. Especially verbal, knowing words nobody ever uses,

 

[Dr Gregg]

Perish the thought that they drive a less expensive car or forgo that new flat-panel teevee.

Sure a family making 30K a year with multiple kids really drive expensive cars and have flat screen tvs. The shit some of you tell yourself to keep your preconceived notion of the world is astonishing

 

[Dr Gregg]

Another look at those 'gubmint' schools. . . .

America pays way too much for education compared with other industrialized countries. I wish the US would cut educational spending so that I'd have more money to spend on private education for my kids.

But at the same time, people want their taxes cut, but then whenever people call for the top 10% to be taxed more, and companies to be taxed more, they bitch and moan about it. A company making billions of dollars not paying any taxes, that's nonsense. aNd then they argue that the businesses will just leave, and like that is a noble thing.

 

[Foxfyre]

Dude is up to his eyeballs in non USMB stuff today, but took time to toss me the following blurb on education. So this is his thread as much as mine.

The thesis is that good parents are able to realign priorities and do what they have to do to get it done where their kids are concerned. And they generally do it better than what we are seeing from the government these days.

Education. As Kevin and Deanna Daum were spiraling toward bankruptcy in 2009, they decided they could live without their two cars, their two residences, and most niceties. But they insisted on keeping up tuition payments for their son, then a senior at a private high school. Many Americans seems to feel likewise. While data doesn't readily show how much families spend on schooling, many families say they've given up other things in order to protect their kids' education, whether it's private school or college, tutoring, enrichment programs or school-related activities. Private school enrollments fell by less than one percent from 2008 to 2010, and college enrollments have gone up over the last couple of years. That's partly because jobs are scarce, but also because Americans simply value education. "This is an investment that pays off very well," says Sandy Baum, an economist at the College Board. "People are willing to borrow for it and they know that it's shortsighted to forego it."
10 Things We Can't Live Without - Yahoo! Finance

All across the country we see parents making great personal sacrifices to pay for good schools or to homeschool their kids with very positive results being posted for their effort. Students who attend private school or who are homeschooled are far more likely to graduate highschool, are far more likely to post high ACT and SAT scores, and are far more likely to go on to higher learning than are public schooled kids. Further they are less likely to get involved in illegal activities, are less likely to have run ins with the law, and are usually very well adjusted socially.

Would this not suggest that we need to start backing the federal government out of most of education rather than pushing for more and more ‘investment’ of tax dollars and other government involvement?

Is it not possible that good parents can and will do a better job for their kids than will the government?

The only reason they are better is money, no? More money for more qualified teachers? Which one has more money into it, a private or a public school? I'm asking, I don't know.

I do like the voucher idea, as its proven to be a success in countries that have done it, and hold schools accountable for poor quality of education, and even makes them be a bit more frugal with their dollars.

I'm wondering if its even feasible to get the system into place here.

Most of the teachers in the private and parochial schools around here make quite a bit less than the public school teachers and generally don't receive anywhere nearly as good benefits (retirement, healthcare, etc.) But they turn down public school and opt for the private schools because the atmosphere is so different. There are far fewer disciplinary problems, much less absenteeism, the parents do get involved and reinforce the process, and the overall work environment is far more pleasant.

I do think vouchers are the only way we will pry the public schools out of the ditch many have dug themselves into though. When public dollars start flowing to the better schools via vouchers, it will be sink or swim for the poorer schools who will either start doing the job they are supposed to do or close up shop. There is nothing like healthy competition to inspire excellence.