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Originally posted by Foxfyre
It is true that the Israelis do not allow non Israeli people to establish settlements on their land any more than pretty much any country would allow non-citizens to just move in and establish settlements.
Originally posted by Foxfyre
It is true that the Israelis do not allow non Israeli people to establish settlements on their land any more than pretty much any country would allow non-citizens to just move in and establish settlements.
Not so long ago, there was a country on the southern end of the african continent that also insisted on calling the indigenous population "non-citizens".
Its leaders proudly called it a "boer" or "afrikaner" democracy but the rest of the world knew better and simply called it apartheid South Africa.
Originally posted by admonit
Do you really think, that your conversation with yourself is interesting to anybody?
If the words I put in your mouth are not true, you missed an excellent opportunity to support Foxfyre's point of view in your two previous posts.
The most probable reason you still haven't said a word in defence of the idea according to which arabs who were hostile to Israel became refugees and the ones who accepted the state became israeli citizens is that you consider this "explanation" to be what it really is:
Sheer lunacy... nothing more than drug-induced zionist hallucination.
Originally posted by admonit
The Palestinian Arabs were expelled as an enemy population, that took active part in the war against Israel.
Now, with admonit's contribution, we have real progress here.
There was only one way Foxfyre's idea could be correct:
Let's imagine...
In february, 1948, the IDF, after encircling and occupying an arab village, conducted detailed, lengthy interrogations with each and every inhabitant of the village to find out if they wanted to harm Jews or not, expelled the ones who did and left the rest alone.
There's no way in hell Foxfyre's idea could be correct without this kind of screening by the IDF, aka, Haganah, Irgun, Lehi, etc...
So admonit thought to himself:
"Foxfyre's idea is too absurd, too crazy even for a commited israeli zionist such as myself."
So he put forth a new theory that regardless of being right or wrong, at least does not rape basic common sense:
Israeli politicians labelled the arab population of Israel "an enemy population, that took active part in the war against Israel" and expelled part of the 750.000 refugees, frightening the rest into leaving their homes and forbid them all to return.
Originally posted by Foxfyre
It is true that the Israelis do not allow non Israeli people to establish settlements on their land any more than pretty much any country would allow non-citizens to just move in and establish settlements.
Not so long ago, there was a country on the southern end of the african continent that also insisted on calling the indigenous population "non-citizens".
Its leaders proudly called it a "boer" or "afrikaner" democracy but the rest of the world knew better and simply called it apartheid South Africa.
Israelis are foreign nationals. Palestinians are the natives.In my opinion, and I have stated this before, until the sovereignty is decided, either no one who was not already resident there at the time of occupation should enter and build or ALL should be allowed to with out ethnic bias and if it comes to government funding it should be equatable, not giving preferences to one group.
OKAY! Now we are getting somewhere. So, regardless of ethnicity or nationality, ONLY those resident at the time of occupation (and their descendants) have a right to live in that territory. Immigration is forbidden. See? THERE is an objective definition. (As long as we begin with the FIRST occupation and not the second one.)
There are still issues with this, but at least we've narrowed you down to a good objective definition. And I'll hold you to it. No more defining settlers as Israeli nationals.
The first problem, is obviously, this hasn't happened. On either side.
Originally posted by Foxfyre
It is true that the Israelis do not allow non Israeli people to establish settlements on their land any more than pretty much any country would allow non-citizens to just move in and establish settlements.
Not so long ago, there was a country on the southern end of the african continent that also insisted on calling the indigenous population "non-citizens".
Its leaders proudly called it a "boer" or "afrikaner" democracy but the rest of the world knew better and simply called it apartheid South Africa.
Foxie, you can not forceably move millians of people who have roots, families and ties to that region going back hundreds if not thousands of years. It isnt a question of whether Islam would accept but it but whether any decent human being could accept it.Link to a post of mine then.Because the majority of the pop consists of filthy Jews...Coyote and Tinmore won’t say it but IMO they think it.
What a stupid thing to say.
Yet several people agree. Just my opinion based on your and Tinmores posts.
Stupid people tend to agree with stupid posts. Yet they never seem to be able to support their claims.
We agree on this one. The tendency to pile on with agreement when nobody is supporting their opinions is a sad fact on message boards. You and I can disagree on Palestine and Israel, but the fact that you sympathize with the Palestinians in no may means that you hate the Jews as has been suggested. I find that extrapolation to be ridiculous.
And the fact that I think the Palestinians have refused myriad opportunities to compromise on a peace plan and/or have violated agreements and they have pretty well forfeited their claim to that land does not mean I hate the Palestinians.
The best solution now is for the UN to find and buy a nice piece of land approximately the size of Israel and move the Palestinians there. Islam will never agree to that, however, as it would remove their ability to use the Palestinians for political purposes in their ultimate goal which is to destroy Israel and the Jews.
Or you could extrapolate the discussion into ridiculous analogies as you have done here.
You can't get around the fact that roughly 21% of the Israeli population is Arab and almost all of those are Palestinian Arabs. That 21% enjoys full Israeli citizenship with all the liberty and benefits that comes with that.
How can that be?
It can only be if Israel did NOT expel all Arabs which is of course the truth. Israel did NOT expel all Arabs but only those who shared the hostile motives, intentions, and efforts of Arab nations to destroy Israel and drive out all the Jews. Were any 'innocent' Arabs included in those expelled or not allowed to return? Probably. But there was no way to tell and almost all of that generation are gone now 70+ years later anyway.
Oh that old argument.
As stale as mouldy bread.
Debating with you is sheer waste of time.
Askhenazis flooded an already inhabited foreign land, destroyed its ethnic composition, created a separate settler society that eventually caused the total collapse of the native one, herded the refugees of that collapse into ethnic enclaves, spent the next 70 years shooting and bombing them and you still find a way to blame the victim.
You are the mirror image of the anti-semite who blames Jews for everything that happens under the sun from an earthquake in Italy to a tsunami in Indonesia...
Just like an inverted image of the anti-semite, if Israel murdered the entire arab population you'd all spend the rest of your lives blaming the bullets.
But I don't blame you...
Foxfyre, Hollie, Coyote, Mindful are the daughters of the post-WWII western world and one of the basic paradigms of this world is:
THOU SHALT NOT BLAME JEWS FOR ANYTHING.
The Holocaust only happened because german leaders blamed Jews for a series of things.
So no matter how justified, well-grounded in historical facts your criticism is:
THOU SHALT NOT BLAME JEWS FOR ANYTHING.
Whether you like it or not, criticizing Jews has become a taboo something prohibited by social custom in America, Europe and most of the world.
You cannot ask Foxfyre, mindful, Coyote, Rocco to rebel against the society that nurtured them, the society that molded the persons they are.
You can't expect that one day Foxfyre, mindful, Hollie, Coyote will get rid of this "sanctification", this idealization of the jewish people as a people that can do no wrong.
All you can do is wait...
As WWII becomes more and more a distant memory we see the relaxation of this taboo with protests against Israel throughout the world but it is still the social norm.
Someday, after living long, fruitful lives Foxfyre's, mindful's, Coyote's days on Earth will be through and they will be replaced by a new generation of westerners who will not have internalized the sactification of the jewish people as a basic societal value.
This will be the generation who will not be afraid to say wrong is wrong, apartheid is apartheid... even when Jews do it.
Or you could extrapolate the discussion into ridiculous analogies as you have done here.
You can't get around the fact that roughly 21% of the Israeli population is Arab and almost all of those are Palestinian Arabs. That 21% enjoys full Israeli citizenship with all the liberty and benefits that comes with that.
How can that be?
It can only be if Israel did NOT expel all Arabs which is of course the truth. Israel did NOT expel all Arabs but only those who shared the hostile motives, intentions, and efforts of Arab nations to destroy Israel and drive out all the Jews. Were any 'innocent' Arabs included in those expelled or not allowed to return? Probably. But there was no way to tell and almost all of that generation are gone now 70+ years later anyway.
Oh that old argument.
As stale as mouldy bread.
Debating with you is sheer waste of time.
Askhenazis flooded an already inhabited foreign land, destroyed its ethnic composition, created a separate settler society that eventually caused the total collapse of the native one, herded the refugees of that collapse into ethnic enclaves, spent the next 70 years shooting and bombing them and you still find a way to blame the victim.
You are the mirror image of the anti-semite who blames Jews for everything that happens under the sun from an earthquake in Italy to a tsunami in Indonesia...
Just like an inverted image of the anti-semite, if Israel murdered the entire arab population you'd all spend the rest of your lives blaming the bullets.
But I don't blame you...
Foxfyre, Hollie, Coyote, Mindful are the daughters of the post-WWII western world and one of the basic paradigms of this world is:
THOU SHALT NOT BLAME JEWS FOR ANYTHING.
The Holocaust only happened because german leaders blamed Jews for a series of things.
So no matter how justified, well-grounded in historical facts your criticism is:
THOU SHALT NOT BLAME JEWS FOR ANYTHING.
Whether you like it or not, criticizing Jews has become a taboo something prohibited by social custom in America, Europe and most of the world.
You cannot ask Foxfyre, mindful, Coyote, Rocco to rebel against the society that nurtured them, the society that molded the persons they are.
You can't expect that one day Foxfyre, mindful, Hollie, Coyote will get rid of this "sanctification", this idealization of the jewish people as a people that can do no wrong.
All you can do is wait...
As WWII becomes more and more a distant memory we see the relaxation of this taboo with protests against Israel throughout the world but it is still the social norm.
Someday, after living long, fruitful lives Foxfyre's, mindful's, Coyote's days on Earth will be through and they will be replaced by a new generation of westerners who will not have internalized the sactification of the jewish people as a basic societal value.
This will be the generation who will not be afraid to say wrong is wrong, apartheid is apartheid... even when Jews do it.
Or you could extrapolate the discussion into ridiculous analogies as you have done here.
You can't get around the fact that roughly 21% of the Israeli population is Arab and almost all of those are Palestinian Arabs. That 21% enjoys full Israeli citizenship with all the liberty and benefits that comes with that.
How can that be?
It can only be if Israel did NOT expel all Arabs which is of course the truth. Israel did NOT expel all Arabs but only those who shared the hostile motives, intentions, and efforts of Arab nations to destroy Israel and drive out all the Jews. Were any 'innocent' Arabs included in those expelled or not allowed to return? Probably. But there was no way to tell and almost all of that generation are gone now 70+ years later anyway.
Oh that old argument.
As stale as mouldy bread.
Debating with you is sheer waste of time.
Askhenazis flooded an already inhabited foreign land, destroyed its ethnic composition, created a separate settler society that eventually caused the total collapse of the native one, herded the refugees of that collapse into ethnic enclaves, spent the next 70 years shooting and bombing them and you still find a way to blame the victim.
You are the mirror image of the anti-semite who blames Jews for everything that happens under the sun from an earthquake in Italy to a tsunami in Indonesia...
Just like an inverted image of the anti-semite, if Israel murdered the entire arab population you'd all spend the rest of your lives blaming the bullets.
But I don't blame you...
Foxfyre, Hollie, Coyote, Mindful are the daughters of the post-WWII western world and one of the basic paradigms of this world is:
THOU SHALT NOT BLAME JEWS FOR ANYTHING.
The Holocaust only happened because german leaders blamed Jews for a series of things.
So no matter how justified, well-grounded in historical facts your criticism is:
THOU SHALT NOT BLAME JEWS FOR ANYTHING.
Whether you like it or not, criticizing Jews has become a taboo something prohibited by social custom in America, Europe and most of the world.
You cannot ask Foxfyre, mindful, Coyote, Rocco to rebel against the society that nurtured them, the society that molded the persons they are.
You can't expect that one day Foxfyre, mindful, Hollie, Coyote will get rid of this "sanctification", this idealization of the jewish people as a people that can do no wrong.
All you can do is wait...
As WWII becomes more and more a distant memory we see the relaxation of this taboo with protests against Israel throughout the world but it is still the social norm.
Someday, after living long, fruitful lives Foxfyre's, mindful's, Coyote's days on Earth will be through and they will be replaced by a new generation of westerners who will not have internalized the sactification of the jewish people as a basic societal value.
This will be the generation who will not be afraid to say wrong is wrong, apartheid is apartheid... even when Jews do it.
The “rebellious teenager” thing is getting old.
Sure, but where is the evidence to what you just posted?Or maybe Israel is losing Jewish support because Jews, like any other diverse demographic group are capable of thinking for themselves.A two-state solution is not possible with the PLO as it currently exists. They have spent their entire time since Oslo working not to build a state but to destroy one. But maybe, down the road, a Palestinian leadership that no longer fantasizes about destroying Israel can arise. The only way that scenario is remotely possible is if they accept that Israel is not going anywhere, and the only way that could happen is by Israel asserting its rights in a consistent, unapologetic and unflinching way.
Annexation of areas that are unquestioningly going to be part of Israel is more likely to bring peace than pretending that Gush Etzion is on the table could ever do.
And guess what? When Israel acts with pride rather than pandering to liberal American Jewish leaders who are in turn pandering to the New York Times, American Jews who are actually proud of their Jewishness will support them. If these liberal groups want to help Israel, they need to instill pride in their flocks, both in Judaism and in Zionism. These leaders need to learn how to answer the questions that Israel's critics hurl at the Jewish state without acting like frightened shtetl Jews. A big reason Israel is losing the support of young American Jews is because their own Jewish role models are too ignorant or cowed to proudly support Israel unequivocally, and to explain why Israel does what it does.
(full article online)
Why liberal Jews opposing annexing settlement blocs are wrong ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News
Or you could extrapolate the discussion into ridiculous analogies as you have done here.
You can't get around the fact that roughly 21% of the Israeli population is Arab and almost all of those are Palestinian Arabs. That 21% enjoys full Israeli citizenship with all the liberty and benefits that comes with that.
How can that be?
It can only be if Israel did NOT expel all Arabs which is of course the truth. Israel did NOT expel all Arabs but only those who shared the hostile motives, intentions, and efforts of Arab nations to destroy Israel and drive out all the Jews. Were any 'innocent' Arabs included in those expelled or not allowed to return? Probably. But there was no way to tell and almost all of that generation are gone now 70+ years later anyway.
Oh that old argument.
As stale as mouldy bread.
Debating with you is sheer waste of time.
Askhenazis flooded an already inhabited foreign land, destroyed its ethnic composition, created a separate settler society that eventually caused the total collapse of the native one, herded the refugees of that collapse into ethnic enclaves, spent the next 70 years shooting and bombing them and you still find a way to blame the victim.
You are the mirror image of the anti-semite who blames Jews for everything that happens under the sun from an earthquake in Italy to a tsunami in Indonesia...
Just like an inverted image of the anti-semite, if Israel murdered the entire arab population you'd all spend the rest of your lives blaming the bullets.
But I don't blame you...
Foxfyre, Hollie, Coyote, Mindful are the daughters of the post-WWII western world and one of the basic paradigms of this world is:
THOU SHALT NOT BLAME JEWS FOR ANYTHING.
The Holocaust only happened because german leaders blamed Jews for a series of things.
So no matter how justified, well-grounded in historical facts your criticism is:
THOU SHALT NOT BLAME JEWS FOR ANYTHING.
Whether you like it or not, criticizing Jews has become a taboo something prohibited by social custom in America, Europe and most of the world.
You cannot ask Foxfyre, mindful, Coyote, Rocco to rebel against the society that nurtured them, the society that molded the persons they are.
You can't expect that one day Foxfyre, mindful, Hollie, Coyote will get rid of this "sanctification", this idealization of the jewish people as a people that can do no wrong.
All you can do is wait...
As WWII becomes more and more a distant memory we see the relaxation of this taboo with protests against Israel throughout the world but it is still the social norm.
Someday, after living long, fruitful lives Foxfyre's, mindful's, Coyote's days on Earth will be through and they will be replaced by a new generation of westerners who will not have internalized the sanctification of the jewish people as a basic societal value.
This will be the generation who will not be afraid to say wrong is wrong, apartheid is apartheid... even when Jews do it.
Jose has zero credibility. Anyone who compares South Africa to Israel is immediately dismissed as someone with little to no knowledge of history.
Jose has zero credibility. Anyone who compares South Africa to Israel is immediately dismissed as someone with little to no knowledge of history.
Or present-day reality. Remember, Jose is the same person who recently said that, aside from Jerusalem, the Jews have no real connection to the rest of Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel).
Jose has zero credibility. Anyone who compares South Africa to Israel is immediately dismissed as someone with little to no knowledge of history.
Or present-day reality. Remember, Jose is the same person who recently said that, aside from Jerusalem, the Jews have no real connection to the rest of Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel).
Jose has zero credibility. Anyone who compares South Africa to Israel is immediately dismissed as someone with little to no knowledge of history.
Or present-day reality. Remember, Jose is the same person who recently said that, aside from Jerusalem, the Jews have no real connection to the rest of Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel).
I just want to know what his dog in this fight is.
