Analisis is important, but does anyone have any ideas about what to actually do?

Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by Logic, Feb 3, 2004.

  1. Logic
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    Logic Guest

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    Lest we forget, the current Intafada is over 3 years old; and still there have been no efective solutions to the latest phase in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Over the course of this Intafada there have been many attempts to solve the crisis by diplomatic means, a course of action that thus far has proved to be ineffective.

    Everybody has there own take on the situation, everybody has analyzed the conflict backwards and forwards - everybody has an opinion about what was done wrong. I'll be honest, I don't have a solution, I was just wondering if there is anybody out there who thinks that they do actually have a viable (realistic) solution?
     
  2. Moi
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    I hate to say it but I don't see any end to the conflict. Hasn't there been religious conflicts since man began (well, maybe not in caveman days)?

    The only thing that has ever held peace is when one group completely obliterates another...say, like with Native Americans. I'm not advocating that, mind you. But I just don't see how two groups who believe so strongly in what is a religious stuggle could ever come to peace.

    It's not like one person prefers coffe and the other tea.
     
  3. Logic
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    I agree with you in principle, however given the nature of religious conflicts (as you pointed out this is - I completly agree) I just don't feel that this conflict can countinue for that much longer in it's currently relatively static manner. Something on one or both sides just has to break, and when it does I think that - well I'm not sure what would happen if things finnaly broke. So the only thing that I disagree with is that someone has to win (at least a temporary victory) in the near future.
     
  4. Zhukov
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    I think the wall or fence is a good idea. It's defensive (militarily), isn't too offensive (intellectually), and seems to be effective were it has already been erected. I say, let them complete the wall/fence, ramp up checkpoint inspections, and wait for the number of effective terrorist attacks to plummet. Additionally, wait for Arafat to die, hope someone rational is put in his place, and try to come to some sort of concensus with him. There is no point trying to negotiate with the Palestinians until Arafat is gone. Arafat will not accept a jewish state, and the jews aren't going anywhere, consequently there is no place to start a good-faith dialogue.

    Ethnic disputes exist in geographic areas which have been inhabited by the same two groups of people for millenia (I understand this situation presently trancends mere ethnic differences). Israel has only been a sovereign state for a little over 50 years. It will take time. The best course for Israel is patience and sensible restraint with neccessary defensive actions perfectly permissible. They've been around for 5000 years and I believe they are more than willing to endure another 5000 years of whatever fate may throw their way.
     
  5. MeSSeNJa
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    Theologically speaking all you have to do is wait for the Anti-Christ and the 7 years of peace.

    But if you're not in to that the wall works and also consider that Israel is a Nuclear Nation. They will most likely not be obliterated. Now with American pressure in the region MAYBE they can get a Palestinian state along with the dismantling of settlements.

    I am not for segregation generally but these peoples need to be separate for some years in order to calm things down.
     
  6. Logic
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    No comment on the fence issue, but I think you're way off regarding your approach of waiting for Arafat to die (no I'm not necessarily implying that he should be taken out - although maybe he should be) and hoping that some one "rational" will be put in his place.

    First of all it's not clear if anyone will ever assume Arafat's position of power amongst the Arabs. It is much more likely that there will be a certain amount of in-fighting and fracturing amongst the various Arab terrorist groups before anyone even aspires to hold a position like Arafat's.

    Also, the idea so often promulgated in the American press that Arafat is the real problem to peace, that he is the only impediment to the facilitation of a diplomatic solution is absurd. The issue is now more acute than ever due to the brainwashing of an entire generation of Arabs that have been taught (using funds that the Israeli's stupidly provided them with) that the killing of Israeli civilians (in fact any civilians) for the sake of the so-called "palestinian people" is not only permissible but laudable!
    However the issues between the Arabs and the Jews far predates Arafat and his PLO. If this weren’t the case, then how do you explain the war of 1948, 1967, and 1973!?
    Clearly the issues between the Jews and the Arabs far transcend any leader and any particular prejudices he may harbor towards the other party.

    Personally I don’t think that time will solve anything, this conflict is going to end the same way every other war has ever ended since the dawn of man – some one is going to get crushed.

    A historical note: Abraham (the father of the Jewish people) was born in 1948 – from creation. As ironic as this is, my point is that the Jews are not actually 5000 years old. In addition why do you assume that a people oppressed and in exile for approximately 1900 years would be “willing to endure another 5000 years of whatever fate may throw their way.” That’s ridicules! Would you say that since the blacks got used to slavery for the several hundred years that they were enslaved by the Europeans and Americans that they therefore wouldn’t mind having another 300 years of slavery! Find a black person to agree to that. I don’t see how the Jews are any different.
     
  7. Zhukov
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    As long as Arafat is the acknowledged leader of the Palestinians who are the Jews to deal with? If they assasinate him all hell will break loose. Arafat will not accept the permanence of an Israeli state and he is not likely to voluntarily relinquish his power while he lives. What is there to do, in the realm of negotiation, until Arafat is dead? Nothing.

    If by the time Arafat is dead the wall is complete and no serious terrorist attack has been succesfully executed in Israel for a few years, a Palestinian leader will emerge who's willing to accept a state. What else is there to hope for? The alternative is another stubborn leader will take power, nothing will be accomplished, and palestinians will continue to suffer. Either the palestinians continue to commit acts of terror or they stop and accept a state. The end of Israel is not a possible outcome, barring external interference (Iran and Syria).

    3000 BC to 2000 AD, that's 5000. I don't know what your 1948 after creation date is.

    The jews have maintained their ethnic and cultural heritage and identity despite conquest, forced exile, enslavement, diaspora, and holocaust for 5000 years. They are back in Judea, and so long as there exists the U.S.A. there will always be a state of Israel.

    Ironic that your handle is Logic isn't it?
     
  8. Logic
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    The jews have maintained their ethnic and cultural heritage and identity despite conquest, forced exile, enslavement, diaspora, and holocaust for 5000 years. They are back in Judea, and so long as there exists the U.S.A. there will always be a state of Israel.
     
  9. Logic
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    Sorry about that incomplete post - copy/paste error.

    I’m not saying that there are others that the Israelis could be dealing with besides Arafat (he is clearly the head goon), I’m saying that they shouldn’t be dealing with anybody. I think it’s fair to say that diplomacy has been proven to be completely ineffective in the Middle East.
    Also, you do realize that the so-called security fence includes about 200,000 Arabs – now explain to me how this fence is going to keep people on the Israeli side out of Israel.

    You think this fence will assure peace when “No serious terrorist attack has been successfully executed in Israel for a few years” – I don’t see how with this fence (or with any other for that matter).

    “The alternative is another stubborn leader will take power, nothing will be accomplished, and palestinians will continue to suffer. Either the palestinians continue to commit acts of terror or they stop and accept a state. The end of Israel is not a possible outcome, barring external interference (Iran and Syria).” I don’t understand this: my point was that Arafat isn’t the problem, the Arabs are (or if you’re on their side the Jews) – as groups of people. Arafat’s death will not bring the region any closer to peace, I’m not talking about ignoring or not ignoring him – I’m saying he’s irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. This dream you seem to have of a time when we can all look back on a time when “No serious terrorist attack has been successfully executed in Israel for a few years” is as fantastical as Oslo was. The options are not a continuation of terrorist attacks or a state – that’s ridicules. There never was, there isn’t and therefore I’m at a loss to see why there should be a “palestinian state” in Israel.

    Were did you get the date 3000 BCE from? Abraham is the undisputable father of the Jews, and if you look in Genesis (chapter 11) the Torah clearly enumerates the lineage of Abraham from his ancestor Shem (one of Noach’s sons). If you do the math, Abraham was born in the year 1948 since creation (a starting point for the Jewish calendar which is currently at the year 5764 from creation).

    “The Jews have maintained their ethnic and cultural heritage and identity despite conquest, forced exile, enslavement, Diaspora, and holocaust for 5000 years. They are back in Judea, and so long as there exists the U.S.A. there will always be a state of Israel.”

    You completely misunderstood me. I wasn’t saying the Jews couldn’t take another “5000” years (your right it’s amazing that they’ve been able to preserve their national identity for all these millennia) I’m sure they could. All I was saying was why would they want to endure another 1900 years of exile and persecution. They finally have an army (a darn good one) for the first time in almost 2000 years. They finally have their country back – so why would they give it up to a group of Arabs who’ve created a nationality out of a Roman name.

    I don’t this could be any more logical.
     
  10. Zhukov
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    No, the misunderstanding is yours. For some reason you understood my statement of:

    to mean:

    Willing to endure hardship because you believe you are God's chosen people and anything bad that happens to you is by God's will to test you is in no way related to wanting to endure hardships. For some reason you implied these were the same thing.

    Further, in the full context of the previous quote:

    You have compared the willingness of Jews to endure God's will to the desire of black people to resume being slaves. There is your logical error. The comparison is not only a logical error, it's not even a sensible statement.

    Terrorist attacks adjacent to erected portions of the fence are down dramatically .

    Do you realize that many Arabs live peaceably within Israel, completely content to co-exist with Jews? There are even arabs in the Knesset. There was recently a push by the rulers of an arab town that was originally to be outside the fenced area. They pleaded to have the fence boundary redrawn so that they would be included within it. And for good reason. Arabs have a higher life expectancy in Israel than anywhere else in the world.

    Whether you like it or not, Arafat is the 'democratically' elected leader of the Palestinian people. He has enormous influence over what they hear, read, and believe, and he has enormous power over the security and terror apparatus in the 'occupied' territories. While he is alive he will not abdicate power and he will continue to work towards the destruction of Israel.
     

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