An America Without Unions

[Mr Natural]

unions suck... outdated... legalized extortion...

Like I said.....before unions people were financial slaves. When you keep a man down so far that he can barely keep clothes on his back and something to eat....he's a slave.

And now they're slaves to the union? Oh I can see THIS improved.

I would guarantee you that a union worker makes a whole lot more money than a slave.

 

[VaYank5150]

You remember the old song performed by Tennessee Ernie Ford " You Load Sixteen Tons And What Do You Get, Another Day Older And Deeper In Debt"

That's not just the words to a song.....it happened. The railroads, the mines, every small enterprise or company paid the least amount they could get by with and there were no benefits at all. People worked 12 hours a day for less than a dollar and their mid day meal. If the company one was working for heard a complaint or a discouraging word an employee was told to collect their pay and find another job.

In the 1940's and early 50's a corporate executive earned about $20,000-$25,000 per year.Along about that time the unions began to negotiate for and gain some salary amounts and benefits. Every time the union was about to be successful at some effort the companies(by default) gave it to their salaried people first........where I worked sometimes as close as two weeks before they awarded it to the union employees.

By the 70's a corporate executive's pay had increased to several hundred thousand dollars a year because the unions were begining to accomodate base line employees with a living wage and new benefits each year.

When I hired in with Union Carbide Corp. in 1952 they had a pension plan but cost was shared by the employee. A person earning $4000-$5000 a year who had a family of four usually didn't even take part in the guaranteed lifetime pension which was based upon their salary at retirement and their years of service. They couldn't afford it if they planned to educated their children. I was single and began the first day to pay into the pension plan.

About 4-5 years later the union negotiated for and received a company funded pension plan and they negotiated for it to be retroactive. I received a lump sum payment for every penny I had paid into the plan and retired with a company funded pension after 41 years service.

People today have no clue about what the unions did for ordinary employees. The only reason companies today pay anybody a goddam dime more than they have to is the threat of a union. If they weren't still on the scene companies would still have railroad workers living in side cars paying half of their salary in rent and miners would still be working in totally unsafe conditions for enough to buy their groceries at the stores the companies operated.

The youth of today look around and think companies are on their side, and a few are, but for the most part a company operates for the highest bottom line profit and would screw their own kin for each employee to earn $10 a week less or to not be required to carry health insurance. Before unions there was no such thing as OSHA or the EPA and employees worked in asbestos, uranium, coal mines, and all manner of other potentially unsafe conditions and men bragged about working in the most adverse conditions. I know....I worked in the Oak Ridge Gaseous Diffusion Plant(ORGDP) where the light green powdered form of uranium was everywhere and the operators didn't even wear masks or wear an individual badge to determine radiation exposure till the early 70's

If there had never been such a thing as a union 90% of the employees of today would be working for a pittance in completely unsafe conditions. A company has never given anybody a dime they didn't have to and they never will. Thank goodness a few large corporations who employ mostly well educated technical personnel have begun to see the light and voluntarily treat the employees with respect and pay them good salaries.......It happens about as frequently as teeth in a chicken.

An America without Unions? Simple...we would actually MAKE things in the United States still, and our trade defecit would be nowhere near what it is today.

 

[VaYank5150]

Like I said.....before unions people were financial slaves. When you keep a man down so far that he can barely keep clothes on his back and something to eat....he's a slave.

And now they're slaves to the union? Oh I can see THIS improved.

I would guarantee you that a union worker makes a whole lot more money than a slave.

Yeah...just ask those $42.00/hr UAW asshats they caught drinking and smoking dope on the job.....excuse me, in a parking lot next to the GM plant while they were on one of their mandatory breaks...

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

And now they're slaves to the union? Oh I can see THIS improved.

I would guarantee you that a union worker makes a whole lot more money than a slave.

Yeah...just ask those $42.00/hr UAW asshats they caught drinking and smoking dope on the job.....excuse me, in a parking lot next to the GM plant while they were on one of their mandatory breaks...

Careful there Sparky, I might have to positive rep you.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Like I said.....before unions people were financial slaves. When you keep a man down so far that he can barely keep clothes on his back and something to eat....he's a slave.

And now they're slaves to the union? Oh I can see THIS improved.

I would guarantee you that a union worker makes a whole lot more money than a slave.

Well, considering that by definition slaves don't get paid..... so, you know slaves?

 

[Caroljo]

Gee, how do the 85%+ of us that aren't in unions survive?

Exactly...i work in an office for a company that has a union in the factory (but not in the office). I make more money & have better benefits than the factory workers!

And if the shop wasn't unionized, you'd be making less than you are now.

Where i work they have always treated their employees well. I've been here 20 yrs and i know not having a union would make no difference to the owners...The only good the union is here is to help people that constantly screw up to keep their jobs. And what i think really sucks is that EVERYONE in the factory that's been there 1 yr to 30 yrs makes the same amount of money...all jobs pay the same! That is the unions fault and it's not fair to the ones that actually work! In the office we're paid by the type of job we do, and nobody knows what anyone else is making. We're paid by our merit....

 

[Mr Natural]

Exactly...i work in an office for a company that has a union in the factory (but not in the office). I make more money & have better benefits than the factory workers!

And if the shop wasn't unionized, you'd be making less than you are now.

Where i work they have always treated their employees well. I've been here 20 yrs and i know not having a union would make no difference to the owners...The only good the union is here is to help people that constantly screw up to keep their jobs. And what i think really sucks is that EVERYONE in the factory that's been there 1 yr to 30 yrs makes the same amount of money...all jobs pay the same! That is the unions fault and it's not fair to the ones that actually work! In the office we're paid by the type of job we do, and nobody knows what anyone else is making. We're paid by our merit....

You can thank the union for that.

 

[Syphon]

Unions - lazy, quality Job 2, I need a smoke break, don't work over 40 hours without overtime
Sounds priceless

your argument doesnt take into account that all hourly employee are guaranteed an overtime for anything over 40hrs a week or 8 hours a day. these are called non-exempt employees. while salary employees are exempt employees do not get or have access to overtime.

 

[Caroljo]

And if the shop wasn't unionized, you'd be making less than you are now.

Where i work they have always treated their employees well. I've been here 20 yrs and i know not having a union would make no difference to the owners...The only good the union is here is to help people that constantly screw up to keep their jobs. And what i think really sucks is that EVERYONE in the factory that's been there 1 yr to 30 yrs makes the same amount of money...all jobs pay the same! That is the unions fault and it's not fair to the ones that actually work! In the office we're paid by the type of job we do, and nobody knows what anyone else is making. We're paid by our merit....

You can thank the union for that.

They were treated well way before the union came here! Many of the older people that had been here awhile didn't want it...it was the younger crowd that got suckered in. This company has been here 51 yrs this summer. Last yr during their 50th anniversary they had a huge open-house with entertainment, prizes. They gave ALL employees nice bonus checks. They had purchased about 15 42" flat screen TV's for the open house and when that was over they drew names and gave them all to the employees at our annual tail-gate party. These things had NOTHING to do with the union.

 

[Syphon]

Where i work they have always treated their employees well. I've been here 20 yrs and i know not having a union would make no difference to the owners...The only good the union is here is to help people that constantly screw up to keep their jobs. And what i think really sucks is that EVERYONE in the factory that's been there 1 yr to 30 yrs makes the same amount of money...all jobs pay the same! That is the unions fault and it's not fair to the ones that actually work! In the office we're paid by the type of job we do, and nobody knows what anyone else is making. We're paid by our merit....

You can thank the union for that.

They were treated well way before the union came here! Many of the older people that had been here awhile didn't want it...it was the younger crowd that got suckered in. This company has been here 51 yrs this summer. Last yr during their 50th anniversary they had a huge open-house with entertainment, prizes. They gave ALL employees nice bonus checks. They had purchased about 15 42" flat screen TV's for the open house and when that was over they drew names and gave them all to the employees at our annual tail-gate party. These things had NOTHING to do with the union.

so what your saying is when a company makes money its not because of the unions, but when they lose money it is because of the unions?

i guess stupid is as stupid does.....

unions dont get involved in the day to day running a business. they are in place to protect working conditions, and negotiate salaries and benefits. have unions become powerful... yes, but then again the person who is across the table negotiating with them on the companies behalf, doesnt have to cave to every union demand. which is what they have done in many circumstances.

so who is a fault more? the union for being a better negotiator, or the company for being a bad one?

 

[Big Fitz]

Like I said.....before unions people were financial slaves. When you keep a man down so far that he can barely keep clothes on his back and something to eat....he's a slave.

And now they're slaves to the union? Oh I can see THIS improved.

I would guarantee you that a union worker makes a whole lot more money than a slave.

Straw man failure. That is why I mocked it the way I did.

The hyperbole that people were slaves before unions is just as laughable. Union... or rather Guilds have been around since the 1500s. They exclude, and create protectionist fiefdoms wherever they exist because without forcing people into them, they are doomed. Read Mark Twain's "Life on the Mississippi" and see how the steamboat pilot's union both improved travel on the river while destroying a high paying profession of riverboat pilot.

 

[Big Fitz]

You can thank the union for that.

They were treated well way before the union came here! Many of the older people that had been here awhile didn't want it...it was the younger crowd that got suckered in. This company has been here 51 yrs this summer. Last yr during their 50th anniversary they had a huge open-house with entertainment, prizes. They gave ALL employees nice bonus checks. They had purchased about 15 42" flat screen TV's for the open house and when that was over they drew names and gave them all to the employees at our annual tail-gate party. These things had NOTHING to do with the union.

so what your saying is when a company makes money its not because of the unions, but when they lose money it is because of the unions?

i guess stupid is as stupid does.....

unions dont get involved in the day to day running a business. they are in place to protect working conditions, and negotiate salaries and benefits. have unions become powerful... yes, but then again the person who is across the table negotiating with them on the companies behalf, doesnt have to cave to every union demand. which is what they have done in many circumstances.

so who is a fault more? the union for being a better negotiator, or the company for being a bad one?

Does it matter who was a better or worse negotiator if the business closes it's doors and goes under?

 

[grunt11b]

You remember the old song performed by Tennessee Ernie Ford " You Load Sixteen Tons And What Do You Get, Another Day Older And Deeper In Debt"

That's not just the words to a song.....it happened. The railroads, the mines, every small enterprise or company paid the least amount they could get by with and there were no benefits at all. People worked 12 hours a day for less than a dollar and their mid day meal. If the company one was working for heard a complaint or a discouraging word an employee was told to collect their pay and find another job.

In the 1940's and early 50's a corporate executive earned about $20,000-$25,000 per year.Along about that time the unions began to negotiate for and gain some salary amounts and benefits. Every time the union was about to be successful at some effort the companies(by default) gave it to their salaried people first........where I worked sometimes as close as two weeks before they awarded it to the union employees.

By the 70's a corporate executive's pay had increased to several hundred thousand dollars a year because the unions were begining to accomodate base line employees with a living wage and new benefits each year.

When I hired in with Union Carbide Corp. in 1952 they had a pension plan but cost was shared by the employee. A person earning $4000-$5000 a year who had a family of four usually didn't even take part in the guaranteed lifetime pension which was based upon their salary at retirement and their years of service. They couldn't afford it if they planned to educated their children. I was single and began the first day to pay into the pension plan.

About 4-5 years later the union negotiated for and received a company funded pension plan and they negotiated for it to be retroactive. I received a lump sum payment for every penny I had paid into the plan and retired with a company funded pension after 41 years service.

People today have no clue about what the unions did for ordinary employees. The only reason companies today pay anybody a goddam dime more than they have to is the threat of a union. If they weren't still on the scene companies would still have railroad workers living in side cars paying half of their salary in rent and miners would still be working in totally unsafe conditions for enough to buy their groceries at the stores the companies operated.

The youth of today look around and think companies are on their side, and a few are, but for the most part a company operates for the highest bottom line profit and would screw their own kin for each employee to earn $10 a week less or to not be required to carry health insurance. Before unions there was no such thing as OSHA or the EPA and employees worked in asbestos, uranium, coal mines, and all manner of other potentially unsafe conditions and men bragged about working in the most adverse conditions. I know....I worked in the Oak Ridge Gaseous Diffusion Plant(ORGDP) where the light green powdered form of uranium was everywhere and the operators didn't even wear masks or wear an individual badge to determine radiation exposure till the early 70's

If there had never been such a thing as a union 90% of the employees of today would be working for a pittance in completely unsafe conditions. A company has never given anybody a dime they didn't have to and they never will. Thank goodness a few large corporations who employ mostly well educated technical personnel have begun to see the light and voluntarily treat the employees with respect and pay them good salaries.......It happens about as frequently as teeth in a chicken.

Unions did serve a purpose at one point, many many years ago. Now with new federal regulations in place there really is no need for them. It's just another way for politicians to pack their coffers full of campaign money. They are nothing less than a special interest group these days. They can trick members into believing that they need them, but they really dont.

 

[grunt11b]

I used to be a member of one of the biggest unions in this country. I dropped my membership when I found out they where giving my dues to politicians I did not support, and then they lied to me about it when I brought it up. Fuck'em, I dont need them for anything.
I paid $360 a year in dues and got a couple t-shirts out of it. Now I send that money to a uniform store and buy uniforms and gear that I need for work throughout the year "I am actually getting something for my money compared to when I was giving it to the union".

 

[Syphon]

They were treated well way before the union came here! Many of the older people that had been here awhile didn't want it...it was the younger crowd that got suckered in. This company has been here 51 yrs this summer. Last yr during their 50th anniversary they had a huge open-house with entertainment, prizes. They gave ALL employees nice bonus checks. They had purchased about 15 42" flat screen TV's for the open house and when that was over they drew names and gave them all to the employees at our annual tail-gate party. These things had NOTHING to do with the union.

so what your saying is when a company makes money its not because of the unions, but when they lose money it is because of the unions?

i guess stupid is as stupid does.....

unions dont get involved in the day to day running a business. they are in place to protect working conditions, and negotiate salaries and benefits. have unions become powerful... yes, but then again the person who is across the table negotiating with them on the companies behalf, doesnt have to cave to every union demand. which is what they have done in many circumstances.

so who is a fault more? the union for being a better negotiator, or the company for being a bad one?

Does it matter who was a better or worse negotiator if the business closes it's doors and goes under?

it completely does. if the company wants to keep the doors open then they need to negotiate with the unions by not giving in to every demand blindly. at the same time, the union must understand what it can do to maximize the wages and benefits of its members while not making the company go bankrupt.

but if they union has better negotiators than the company, and the company makes a bad deal which causes the company to close, that is not the unions fault, it is the company's.

if the union on the other hand strikes too much and has unreasonable demands which cause the company to close, then that is the unions fault, no the company's

 

[Syphon]

I used to be a member of one of the biggest unions in this country. I dropped my membership when I found out they where giving my dues to politicians I did not support, and then they lied to me about it when I brought it up. Fuck'em, I dont need them for anything.
I paid $360 a year in dues and got a couple t-shirts out of it. Now I send that money to a uniform store and buy uniforms and gear that I need for work throughout the year "I am actually getting something for my money compared to when I was giving it to the union".

no one forces you to join a union. its a choice

 

[Big Fitz]

I used to be a member of one of the biggest unions in this country. I dropped my membership when I found out they where giving my dues to politicians I did not support, and then they lied to me about it when I brought it up. Fuck'em, I dont need them for anything.
I paid $360 a year in dues and got a couple t-shirts out of it. Now I send that money to a uniform store and buy uniforms and gear that I need for work throughout the year "I am actually getting something for my money compared to when I was giving it to the union".

no one forces you to join a union. its a choice

[cough] closed shop [/cough]

 

[Big Fitz]

so what your saying is when a company makes money its not because of the unions, but when they lose money it is because of the unions?

i guess stupid is as stupid does.....

unions dont get involved in the day to day running a business. they are in place to protect working conditions, and negotiate salaries and benefits. have unions become powerful... yes, but then again the person who is across the table negotiating with them on the companies behalf, doesnt have to cave to every union demand. which is what they have done in many circumstances.

so who is a fault more? the union for being a better negotiator, or the company for being a bad one?

Does it matter who was a better or worse negotiator if the business closes it's doors and goes under?

it completely does. if the company wants to keep the doors open then they need to negotiate with the unions by not giving in to every demand blindly. at the same time, the union must understand what it can do to maximize the wages and benefits of its members while not making the company go bankrupt.

but if they union has better negotiators than the company, and the company makes a bad deal which causes the company to close, that is not the unions fault, it is the company's.

if the union on the other hand strikes too much and has unreasonable demands which cause the company to close, then that is the unions fault, no the company's

The point, obviously missed, is that it doesn't matter if the contract was awesome or shit for the union. If the company goes under, nobody has a job and the union is just as culpable as the management.

In the end, who gets fucked the hardest? The workers now jobless.

 

[Syphon]

Does it matter who was a better or worse negotiator if the business closes it's doors and goes under?

it completely does. if the company wants to keep the doors open then they need to negotiate with the unions by not giving in to every demand blindly. at the same time, the union must understand what it can do to maximize the wages and benefits of its members while not making the company go bankrupt.

but if they union has better negotiators than the company, and the company makes a bad deal which causes the company to close, that is not the unions fault, it is the company's.

if the union on the other hand strikes too much and has unreasonable demands which cause the company to close, then that is the unions fault, no the company's

The point, obviously missed, is that it doesn't matter if the contract was awesome or shit for the union. If the company goes under, nobody has a job and the union is just as culpable as the management.

In the end, who gets fucked the hardest? The workers now jobless.

your still blaming the union for a bad business decision instead of the company itself.

 

[Syphon]

I used to be a member of one of the biggest unions in this country. I dropped my membership when I found out they where giving my dues to politicians I did not support, and then they lied to me about it when I brought it up. Fuck'em, I dont need them for anything.
I paid $360 a year in dues and got a couple t-shirts out of it. Now I send that money to a uniform store and buy uniforms and gear that I need for work throughout the year "I am actually getting something for my money compared to when I was giving it to the union".

no one forces you to join a union. its a choice

[cough] closed shop [/cough]

you have a freedom to choose any job in the world. no one said you had a choose a job that is connected with union labor.

arent cons all about freedom of choice and personal responsibility?