Americas Constitutions point towards Christianity

[rdean]

One thing that gets me is when the religious say that because people aren't following religious "guidelines" they are somehow less "moral".

When people say, "Let's take Christian symbols off of court houses" the Christians become incensed, yet the same Christians have zero problem claiming that people who don't have the same occult beliefs they do are somehow "not moral". How many times have I heard Christians saying, "Without "God", what's to keep you from murder and rape?" To me, the person that asks that question is the dangerous one. The only thing keeping them from rape and murder is belief in the "supernatural"? How is that not scary?

Then the question comes up, "What should moral Christians do to those NOT "moral"?"

Here's where we part ways. While I agree some Christians have the kind of attitude you describe, they are neither the majority nor anywhere close to the mainstream. They tend to be loud, but don't judge every Believer by what they yell. When you start saying "The Christians" this and "Religious people" that, you are lumping me together with them. Trust me, neither of us really appreciates it.

You don't need to be in the majority to be dangerous. Christians refuse to reign in their crazies the same way the Islamics refuse to reign in theirs.

As the Dover debacle proved, Christians are intolerant and threatening.

NOVA | Transcripts | Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial | PBS

The religious still live in 1882. In the US, Christians want to make mystical creation equal to science, even though they have no data. In many Islamic countries, teaching the Science of Evolution is illegal. No surprise since Islam comes from Christianity.

There are many dozens of university and medical courses bases on evolution supported by many other fields of science. This isn't grandpa's evolution.

There is no reputable licensed MD in the US who doesn't believe that evolution is true. It's part of their education. If you don't believe in evolution but go to a MD, that is being a hypocrite.

 

[goldcatt]

One thing that gets me is when the religious say that because people aren't following religious "guidelines" they are somehow less "moral".

When people say, "Let's take Christian symbols off of court houses" the Christians become incensed, yet the same Christians have zero problem claiming that people who don't have the same occult beliefs they do are somehow "not moral". How many times have I heard Christians saying, "Without "God", what's to keep you from murder and rape?" To me, the person that asks that question is the dangerous one. The only thing keeping them from rape and murder is belief in the "supernatural"? How is that not scary?

Then the question comes up, "What should moral Christians do to those NOT "moral"?"

Here's where we part ways. While I agree some Christians have the kind of attitude you describe, they are neither the majority nor anywhere close to the mainstream. They tend to be loud, but don't judge every Believer by what they yell. When you start saying "The Christians" this and "Religious people" that, you are lumping me together with them. Trust me, neither of us really appreciates it.

You don't need to be in the majority to be dangerous. Christians refuse to reign in their crazies the same way the Islamics refuse to reign in theirs.

As the Dover debacle proved, Christians are intolerant and threatening.

NOVA | Transcripts | Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial | PBS

The religious still live in 1882. In the US, Christians want to make mystical creation equal to science, even though they have no data. In many Islamic countries, teaching the Science of Evolution is illegal. No surprise since Islam comes from Christianity.

There are many dozens of university and medical courses bases on evolution supported by many other fields of science. This isn't grandpa's evolution.

There is no reputable licensed MD in the US who doesn't believe that evolution is true. It's part of their education. If you don't believe in evolution but go to a MD, that is being a hypocrite.

You miss my point. I actually generally agree with you re: the rabid fringe. But painting ALL people of faith with the same brush does nothing for your cause. Just food for thought.
Oh, and BTW, the fringe in Dover lost. Big time. And lost their side a few Congressional seats and a Senate seat at least in part over the freakshow they put on while they were at it. So much for no checks on them.

 

[THE LIGHT]

I think these are unconstitutional state laws, and Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the DoI, was agnostic to the point of writing his own bible.

These are not laws these are portions of the state constitutions. How can a constitution be unconstitutional?

because a state constitution can't contradict the federal constituton...

see... supremacy clause.

Yes, but they never contradicted the federal constitution because the First Amendment there to limit the government not the people. And the founding fathers would have had them changed if they thought they were in violation. But they didn't did they?

 

[goldcatt]

These are not laws these are portions of the state constitutions. How can a constitution be unconstitutional?

because a state constitution can't contradict the federal constituton...

see... supremacy clause.

Yes, but they never contradicted the federal constitution because the First Amendment there to limit the government not the people. And the founding fathers would have had them changed if they thought they were in violation. But they didn't did they?

THE, if I may call you that, you need to go back and read the link I posted for you in my first post on this thread. It's called the United States Constitution. I realize you've referred to it as "babble", but reading the actual Supremacy Clause as well as the rest of the document will answer your questions before you make yourself look foolish.
I mean, we can all have some fun poking sticks at you if you prefer. But coming back knowing something about your subject would be less painful for you. Please do think about it.

 

[Shogun]

yea... it TOTALLY makes sense for people who saw what happened to dogma junkie bullshit saturating the government in England to go ahead and mean something entirely else by "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

:crazy:

 

[THE LIGHT]

because a state constitution can't contradict the federal constituton...

see... supremacy clause.

Yes, but they never contradicted the federal constitution because the First Amendment there to limit the government not the people. And the founding fathers would have had them changed if they thought they were in violation. But they didn't did they?

THE, if I may call you that, you need to go back and read the link I posted for you in my first post on this thread. It's called the United States Constitution. I realize you've referred to it as "babble", but reading the actual Supremacy Clause as well as the rest of the document will answer your questions before you make yourself look foolish.
I mean, we can all have some fun poking sticks at you if you prefer. But coming back knowing something about your subject would be less painful for you. Please do think about it.

Maybe first try reading my post. Next you have a far worse problem than not understanding the Constitution. You don't even know your history! So, yes, you can poke and prod your sticks of ignorance all day if you would like. Just don't poke your own eyes out along the way.

 

[goldcatt]

Yes, but they never contradicted the federal constitution because the First Amendment there to limit the government not the people. And the founding fathers would have had them changed if they thought they were in violation. But they didn't did they?

THE, if I may call you that, you need to go back and read the link I posted for you in my first post on this thread. It's called the United States Constitution. I realize you've referred to it as "babble", but reading the actual Supremacy Clause as well as the rest of the document will answer your questions before you make yourself look foolish.
I mean, we can all have some fun poking sticks at you if you prefer. But coming back knowing something about your subject would be less painful for you. Please do think about it.

Maybe first try reading my post. Next you have a far worse problem than not understanding the Constitution. You don't even know your history! So, yes, you can poke and prod your sticks of ignorance all day if you would like. Just don't poke your own eyes out along the way.

Have it your way!

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

(Emphasis added)

LII: Constitution

Now, since I know nothing about the Constitution or history, please point to me in my utter ignorance where the Founding Fathers as you describe them would need to force the States to change a conflicting (subordinate) State constitution in order to render it ineffective?

 

[JenT]

One thing that gets me is when the religious say that because people aren't following religious "guidelines" they are somehow less "moral".

When people say, "Let's take Christian symbols off of court houses" the Christians become incensed, yet the same Christians have zero problem claiming that people who don't have the same occult beliefs they do are somehow "not moral". How many times have I heard Christians saying, "Without "God", what's to keep you from murder and rape?" To me, the person that asks that question is the dangerous one. The only thing keeping them from rape and murder is belief in the "supernatural"? How is that not scary?

Then the question comes up, "What should moral Christians do to those NOT "moral"?"

Here's where we part ways. While I agree some Christians have the kind of attitude you describe, they are neither the majority nor anywhere close to the mainstream. They tend to be loud, but don't judge every Believer by what they yell. When you start saying "The Christians" this and "Religious people" that, you are lumping me together with them. Trust me, neither of us really appreciates it.

You don't need to be in the majority to be dangerous. Christians refuse to reign in their crazies the same way the Islamics refuse to reign in theirs.

As the Dover debacle proved, Christians are intolerant and threatening.

NOVA | Transcripts | Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial | PBS

The religious still live in 1882. In the US, Christians want to make mystical creation equal to science, even though they have no data. In many Islamic countries, teaching the Science of Evolution is illegal. No surprise since Islam comes from Christianity.

There are many dozens of university and medical courses bases on evolution supported by many other fields of science. This isn't grandpa's evolution.

There is no reputable licensed MD in the US who doesn't believe that evolution is true. It's part of their education. If you don't believe in evolution but go to a MD, that is being a hypocrite.

If you mean by evolution that the body adapts, that would be one thing. But generally the so-called theory/guess of evolution teaches that we evolved from primordial goo. Of that you have absolutely no proof. There has never been any evidence found of a species jump.

Get real proof, until then, sit down.

 

[THE LIGHT]

THE, if I may call you that, you need to go back and read the link I posted for you in my first post on this thread. It's called the United States Constitution. I realize you've referred to it as "babble", but reading the actual Supremacy Clause as well as the rest of the document will answer your questions before you make yourself look foolish.
I mean, we can all have some fun poking sticks at you if you prefer. But coming back knowing something about your subject would be less painful for you. Please do think about it.

Maybe first try reading my post. Next you have a far worse problem than not understanding the Constitution. You don't even know your history! So, yes, you can poke and prod your sticks of ignorance all day if you would like. Just don't poke your own eyes out along the way.

Have it your way!

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

(Emphasis added)

LII: Constitution

Now, since I know nothing about the Constitution or history, please point to me in my utter ignorance where the Founding Fathers as you describe them would need to force the States to change a conflicting (subordinate) State constitution in order to render it ineffective?

I didn't say they needed to.

 

[JenT]

I can't read all of this to decipher what the issue is, but any claim that Thomas Jefferson was not a man of faith is just bizarre.

While it's true that Jefferson refused Presidential proclamations for national days of prayer, fasting and thanksgiving, he did that because he believed it belonged to the state rather than the federal. So as Governor of Virginia he called for those very things.

Jefferson wrote: A Bill for Saving the Property of the Church Heretofore by Law Established," "A Bill for Punishing Disturbers of REligious Worship and Sabbath Breakers," "A Bill for Appointing Days of Public Fasting and Thanksgiving" and "A Bill Annulling Marriages Proibited by the Levitical Law and Appointing the Mode of Solemnizing Lawful Marriage"

He also made sure there was space in the Rotunda of the University of Virginia for chapel services, he praised the use of the Charlottesville couthouse for religious services; and that he stated that religion is "deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support"

Justice Rehnquist wrote of him:

"Jeffersons's treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians...provded anual cash support for the Tribe's Roman Catholic priest and church..."

The Treaty said: "And whereas, the greater part of the Tribe have been baptized adn received in the Catholic church, to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually for 7 years one hundred dollars toward the support of a priest of that religion and 300 dollars to assist the said Tribe in the erection of a church."

He also gave special land "for the sole purpose of Christian Indians"

Kate Mason Rowland, Life and Correspondence of Charles Carroll of Carrollton (New York & London, 1898

Elliot's Debates, Vol III pp 452-454 George Mason, June 15, 1788

David Barton Original Intent p 207

 

[JenT]

And I know I've posted this before, but it's just true and relevant

Did you know that George Washington is quoted as saying, "Above all, teach the religion of Jesus Christ" when addressing the importance of public schools? The textbook states,

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faith have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here." "The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."

John Adams: "We have appointed a continental fast. Millions will be upon their knees at once before their great Creator, imploring His forgiveness and blessing; His smiles on American councils and arms."

John Adams Regarding the Age of Reason: "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard [scoundrel, rogue] Paine say what he will." and again later to John Paine: "The people of New England, if you will allow me to use a Scripture phrase, are fast returning to their first love. Will you excite among them the spirit of angry controversy at a time when they are hastening to amity and peace? I am told that some of our newspapers have announced your intention to publish an additional pamphlet upon the principles of your Age of Reason. Do you think that your pen, or the pen of any other man, can unchristianize the mass of our citizens, or have you hopes of converting a few of them to assist you in so bad a cause?"

Benjamin Franklin: History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others.

John Quincy Adams: "So great is my veneration for the Bible that the earlier my children begin to read it the more confident will be my hope that they will prove useful citizens of their country and respectable members of society. I have for many years made it a practice to read through the Bible once every year."

U.S. Grant: "The Bible is the sheet-anchor of our liberties."

Andrew Jackson: "That book, sir, is the rock on which our republic rests."

Robert E. Lee: "In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength."

Abraham Lincoln: "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Saviour of the world is communicated to us through this book."

Samuel Adams, "Father of the American Revolution" (to Britain) "We again make our solemn appeal to the God of heaven to decide between you and us. And we pray that, in the doubtful scale of battle, we may be successful as we have justice on our side, and that the merciful Saviour of the world may forgive our oppressors."

George Washington: "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention."

Even the Liberty Bell has a Bible verse engraved upon it! "Proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof. LEVITICUS 25:10"

And what's the name of that spike that has a scripture on the top of it?

 

[THE LIGHT]

And I know I've posted this before, but it's just true and relevant

Did you know that George Washington is quoted as saying, "Above all, teach the religion of Jesus Christ" when addressing the importance of public schools? The textbook states,

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faith have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here." "The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."

John Adams: "We have appointed a continental fast. Millions will be upon their knees at once before their great Creator, imploring His forgiveness and blessing; His smiles on American councils and arms."

John Adams Regarding the Age of Reason: "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard [scoundrel, rogue] Paine say what he will." and again later to John Paine: "The people of New England, if you will allow me to use a Scripture phrase, are fast returning to their first love. Will you excite among them the spirit of angry controversy at a time when they are hastening to amity and peace? I am told that some of our newspapers have announced your intention to publish an additional pamphlet upon the principles of your Age of Reason. Do you think that your pen, or the pen of any other man, can unchristianize the mass of our citizens, or have you hopes of converting a few of them to assist you in so bad a cause?"

Benjamin Franklin: History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others.

John Quincy Adams: "So great is my veneration for the Bible that the earlier my children begin to read it the more confident will be my hope that they will prove useful citizens of their country and respectable members of society. I have for many years made it a practice to read through the Bible once every year."

U.S. Grant: "The Bible is the sheet-anchor of our liberties."

Andrew Jackson: "That book, sir, is the rock on which our republic rests."

Robert E. Lee: "In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength."

Abraham Lincoln: "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Saviour of the world is communicated to us through this book."

Samuel Adams, "Father of the American Revolution" (to Britain) "We again make our solemn appeal to the God of heaven to decide between you and us. And we pray that, in the doubtful scale of battle, we may be successful as we have justice on our side, and that the merciful Saviour of the world may forgive our oppressors."

George Washington: "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention."

Even the Liberty Bell has a Bible verse engraved upon it! "Proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof. LEVITICUS 25:10"

And what's the name of that spike that has a scripture on the top of it?

Yeah, isn't it ironic that a bell called "Liberty" would have a Judeo -Christian passage inscribed on it.

 

[JenT]

The Washington Monument, THATS what I was trying to remember.

Every day on the top of this monument the sun rises and the first words seen are "Praise be to God" in Latin.

Of course that's not from our founders day but I think it's fascinating

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/monument.asp

 

[Father Time]

If you mean by evolution that the body adapts, that would be one thing. But generally the so-called theory/guess of evolution teaches that we evolved from primordial goo. Of that you have absolutely no proof. There has never been any evidence found of a species jump.

Get real proof, until then, sit down.

You don't accept proof, we've been through this before.

 

[THE LIGHT]

If you mean by evolution that the body adapts, that would be one thing. But generally the so-called theory/guess of evolution teaches that we evolved from primordial goo. Of that you have absolutely no proof. There has never been any evidence found of a species jump.

Get real proof, until then, sit down.

You don't accept proof, we've been through this before.

Because you don't have proof you just have an interpretation of existing artifacts.

 

[JenT]

If you mean by evolution that the body adapts, that would be one thing. But generally the so-called theory/guess of evolution teaches that we evolved from primordial goo. Of that you have absolutely no proof. There has never been any evidence found of a species jump.

Get real proof, until then, sit down.

You don't accept proof, we've been through this before.

Because you don't have proof you just have an interpretation of existing artifacts.

See ya home on the range

 

[Father Time]

Ok fine you won't accept evidence that better?

[youtube]Qfoje7jVJpU[/youtube]

And what is religion but an interpretation of an existing artifact (Bible).

 

[THE LIGHT]

Ok fine you won't accept evidence that better?

[youtube]Qfoje7jVJpU[/youtube]

And what is religion but an interpretation of an existing artifact (Bible).

religion is not specific to the Bible. In fact it is exclusive of it.

 

[goldcatt]

These are not laws these are portions of the state constitutions. How can a constitution be unconstitutional?

because a state constitution can't contradict the federal constituton...

see... supremacy clause.

Yes, but they never contradicted the federal constitution because the First Amendment there to limit the government not the people. And the founding fathers would have had them changed if they thought they were in violation. But they didn't did they?

please point to me in my utter ignorance where the Founding Fathers as you describe them would need to force the States to change a conflicting (subordinate) State constitution in order to render it ineffective?

I didn't say they needed to.

Are you really that dishonest, or are you just so tied up in your agenda you can't understand your own words and the "proof" you, yourself offer for your "argument"?

Actually, never mind. I believe you've answered that question many times already.

People whose minds are so closed, locked, and guarded they have to work this hard to deny reality are fun to play with, but really quite sad. I don't understand it myself. It's not like there's anything inside that mind worth the trouble.

 

[THE LIGHT]

because a state constitution can't contradict the federal constituton...

see... supremacy clause.

Yes, but they never contradicted the federal constitution because the First Amendment there to limit the government not the people. And the founding fathers would have had them changed if they thought they were in violation. But they didn't did they?

please point to me in my utter ignorance where the Founding Fathers as you describe them would need to force the States to change a conflicting (subordinate) State constitution in order to render it ineffective?

I didn't say they needed to.

Are you really that dishonest, or are you just so tied up in your agenda you can't understand your own words and the "proof" you, yourself offer for your "argument"?

Actually, never mind. I believe you've answered that question many times already.

People whose minds are so closed, locked, and guarded they have to work this hard to deny reality are fun to play with, but really quite sad. I don't understand it myself. It's not like there's anything inside that mind worth the trouble.

Good one! That's what your type usually do when they lose a debate is blame the other side of being closed minded. You have to attack the person becuse you can't win on facts.

Everyone else is the problem. Everyone else is the ignorant one right? Such open mindedness.

Unless they agree with you.