American Unions -- Good or Bad for America?

[code1211]

I vote good, as anything that helps to control power is good.

spoken as if union power is under control.

Unions don't have half the influence they did back in the '50s when our nation was at it's most prosperous.

Coincidence? I think not.

Might be time to think again.

The USA became the ultimate economic force on the planet after it had bombed the rest of world to rubble. The entire world had to buy everything to restart their existance and the only game in town was the USA which was either dominating through tthe Marshall Plan in control of Europe or the MacArthur run orient.

Innefficiency and misdirection were the rule of the day but even with that in place, there was simply no other market to buy from.

Another "coincidence" that you may care to examine is the rise of the Japanese and Korean auto industries. Higher quality and lower prices as compared to the American products produced by non-union workforces.

If the rise to dominance of American industry was caused by Unionization, how did non-union producers displace them?

 

[syrenn]

spoken as if union power is under control.

Unions don't have half the influence they did back in the '50s when our nation was at it's most prosperous.

Coincidence? I think not.

Might be time to think again.

The USA became the ultimate economic force on the planet after it had bombed the rest of world to rubble. The entire world had to buy everything to restart their existance and the only game in town was the USA which was either dominating through tthe Marshall Plan in control of Europe or the MacArthur run orient.

Innefficiency and misdirection were the rule of the day but even with that in place, there was simply no other market to buy from.

Another "coincidence" that you may care to examine is the rise of the Japanese and Korean auto industries. Higher quality and lower prices as compared to the American products produced by non-union workforces.

If the rise to dominance of American industry was caused by Unionization, how did non-union producers displace them?

Because unions can not bully the whole world into its ranks.

 

[Foxfyre]

I vote good, as anything that helps to control power is good.

spoken as if union power is under control.

Unions don't have half the influence they did back in the '50s when our nation was at it's most prosperous.

Coincidence? I think not.

Using your logic we could just as easily say that Polio was a great concern in the 50's and as soon as a vaccine was perfected, the economy crashed. Coincidence? Mr Clean would think not.

Or in the 1950's segregation was legal, more women stayed home and raised families instead of joining the paid work force, and the ACLU wasn't challenging whether kids should recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Now all that has changed and the nation is less prosperous. Coincidence? Mr Clean would think not.

 

[antagon]

I vote good, as anything that helps to control power is good.

spoken as if union power is under control.

Unions don't have half the influence they did back in the '50s when our nation was at it's most prosperous.

Coincidence? I think not.

absolutely coincidence. unions rode the coat-tails of american post-war expansion, as did many other economic relics, many which have been put to pasture in the decades since. without the taft-hartley act, which empowered our businesses back to relative balance with labor, the very capitalist composition on which the strength of this era was based would be compromised.

 

[Mr Natural]

spoken as if union power is under control.

Unions don't have half the influence they did back in the '50s when our nation was at it's most prosperous.

Coincidence? I think not.

absolutely coincidence. unions rode the coat-tails of american post-war expansion, as did many other economic relics, many which have been put to pasture in the decades since. without the taft-hartley act, which empowered our businesses back to relative balance with labor, the very capitalist composition on which the strength of this era was based would be compromised.

Bullshit!

The '50s were prosperous because America had a manufacturing base, ordinary working people made enough to live a comfortable middle-class lifestyle (thanks to the efforts of the Labor Movement), and the wealthy paid their fair share of taxes.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Unions don't have half the influence they did back in the '50s when our nation was at it's most prosperous.

Coincidence? I think not.

absolutely coincidence. unions rode the coat-tails of american post-war expansion, as did many other economic relics, many which have been put to pasture in the decades since. without the taft-hartley act, which empowered our businesses back to relative balance with labor, the very capitalist composition on which the strength of this era was based would be compromised.

Bullshit!

The '50s were prosperous because America had a manufacturing base, ordinary working people made enough to live a comfortable middle-class lifestyle (thanks to the efforts of the Labor Movement), and the wealthy paid their fair share of taxes.

And then greed got the best of them and the factories started closing because they couldn't sell their goods at a reasonable rate. Why? Because they had to pay the Unionized people more and more and more...... The big Unions went too far. Which is why instead of living in the "Steel Valley" I live in the "Rust Belt".

 

[Modbert]

Companies love no unions. Make it easier to take people's jobs and simply move them overseas with no regard for their employees.

 

[antagon]

Unions don't have half the influence they did back in the '50s when our nation was at it's most prosperous.

Coincidence? I think not.

absolutely coincidence. unions rode the coat-tails of american post-war expansion, as did many other economic relics, many which have been put to pasture in the decades since. without the taft-hartley act, which empowered our businesses back to relative balance with labor, the very capitalist composition on which the strength of this era was based would be compromised.

Bullshit!

The '50s were prosperous because America had a manufacturing base, ordinary working people made enough to live a comfortable middle-class lifestyle (thanks to the efforts of the Labor Movement), and the wealthy paid their fair share of taxes.

coat-tails, clean. labor unions have been independent of national labor reforms, attempting instead to run a franchise on labor standards for themselves. the abolition of slavery, child labor laws, the minimum wage, standardized work weeks... the complexion of labor for the majority of americans was fought for independent of labor unions which fought separately for organized labor rights.

that you contend that unions are responsible for manufacturing in the 50s ignores the fact that for 80 years prior to that, the US was the world's premier manufacturing power. unions didn't bring that about either.

unions have been about themselves and their members, which is great for them and their members, but it does not justify all the credit for american prosperity. it is merely coincidental to it, and couldn't exist without the businesses they contract with or the laws which empower them.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Anybody who draws a paycheck owes a huge debt of gratitude to the Labor Movement.

Yeah , and it looks like they are calling it in.

 

[code1211]

Companies love no unions. Make it easier to take people's jobs and simply move them overseas with no regard for their employees.

If there is a union and the company decides to move the jobs overseas, what will the union do to stop them? Strike?

Please re-think and re-present.

 

[code1211]

Just because you, and the unions, think they are exploited does not mean that they are. They have consistently voted against unionizing, so they must think they are doing pretty good. Why do you think the unions want the card check law?

Card check - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very interesting stuff, Quantum Windbag. But do you deny Walmarts exploits its workers? Or that the company routinely engages in unfair labor practices? If Walmarts workers were unionized, wages would rise (one would expect) so that a living wage would be possible, at least for senior people.

Is this something we no longer desire for American workers?

Unions have brought American workers job security, benefits, safer working conditions, better wages.....like anyone else, they can go too far, but a middle class standard of living would not be possible for many American families without unions.

I'm not seeing the down side.

Walmart doesn't ONLY exploit their workers...they exploit every community and the taxpayers...

How...corporate cost externalization affectionately known as corporate welfare

According to a 2004 report released by U.S. Representative George Miller, one 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,000 per year because of the need for federal aid (such as housing assistance, tax credits, and health insurance assistance) for Wal-Mart's low-wage employees.

And if WalMart did not employ them... ?

 

[FA_Q2]

I find it funny that the left defends things like welfare and the multitude of social programs that exist to help the poor and then those same people characterize it as corporate welfare. Pick a side fellas.

 

[Madeline]

I find it funny that the left defends things like welfare and the multitude of social programs that exist to help the poor and then those same people characterize it as corporate welfare. Pick a side fellas.

"Corporate welfare" means such things as triple tax discounts and gifts of government money to Big Pharma, or price supports to Big Agriculture. The term never, ever means any sort of assistance for people, poor or otherwise.

Unless you count the Rockefellers, DuPonts, Kennedys, etc. as "the people". I don't.

 

[Madeline]

Card check - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very interesting stuff, Quantum Windbag. But do you deny Walmarts exploits its workers? Or that the company routinely engages in unfair labor practices? If Walmarts workers were unionized, wages would rise (one would expect) so that a living wage would be possible, at least for senior people.

Is this something we no longer desire for American workers?

Unions have brought American workers job security, benefits, safer working conditions, better wages.....like anyone else, they can go too far, but a middle class standard of living would not be possible for many American families without unions.

I'm not seeing the down side.

Walmart doesn't ONLY exploit their workers...they exploit every community and the taxpayers...

How...corporate cost externalization affectionately known as corporate welfare

According to a 2004 report released by U.S. Representative George Miller, one 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,000 per year because of the need for federal aid (such as housing assistance, tax credits, and health insurance assistance) for Wal-Mart's low-wage employees.

And if WalMart did not employ them... ?

If a community will buy the stuff sold at a Walmart, then they presumably were buying it from small businesses before Walmart showed up. Those small businesses were employers who no longer exist, have been driven under by Walmart's illegal predatory pricing policies. It's a perfect storm, economically. Destroy the community's business sector, lower the average wage and trap people into buying as cheaply as possible because they earn so much less.

Ever heard the term "company store"?

 

[code1211]

Walmart doesn't ONLY exploit their workers...they exploit every community and the taxpayers...

How...corporate cost externalization affectionately known as corporate welfare

According to a 2004 report released by U.S. Representative George Miller, one 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,000 per year because of the need for federal aid (such as housing assistance, tax credits, and health insurance assistance) for Wal-Mart's low-wage employees.

And if WalMart did not employ them... ?

If a community will buy the stuff sold at a Walmart, then they presumably were buying it from small businesses before Walmart showed up. Those small businesses were employers who no longer exist, have been driven under by Walmart's illegal predatory pricing policies. It's a perfect storm, economically. Destroy the community's business sector, lower the average wage and trap people into buying as cheaply as possible because they earn so much less.

Ever heard the term "company store"?

Interesting perspective. How far back in time would we need to go in terms of commerce for you to be happy? Local bakeries were replaced by larger bakeries. The milkman used to own a cow or two and sold the milk in the village. Woolworths replaced many local neighborhood stores. That was in the early 20th Century. Sears, JC Penney and Wards were all supplanters of the local guy.

Lowes and Home Depot overwhelmed ACE which previously had overwhelmed other non affiliated hardware outlets.

Do you recomend that the extensive selection, low pricing, convenient hours and central locations which take advantage of the automobile culture be simply swept away in favor of the limited selection, limited hours, limited access and limited floor space of the outdated General Stores of years past?

Should we also close restaurants that have more than one location? How about gas stations? Department stores? Malls? Hospitals? How limited are you demanding that our selection become for you to be happy?

One last thing. Look at any WalMart. Check the surrounding small businesses that have a niche clientel. Every WalMart has a shelf life of 10 years at which point it simply closes and reopens in a different spot nearby. What happens to those Niche marketers. They close. Without WalMart's draw, they have no traffic, business and no purpose to stay open.

How do you feel about internet marketers? Should this be illegal in your world of yesterday? How about the Sears catalogue?

You can spend your life fighting the current or find out where the flow is going and use for your benefit.

 

[HUGGY]

American Unions -- Good or Bad for America?

In the final analysis they were bad because they did not stand up as one against Reagan when he fired the Air Traffic Controllers.

 

[nraforlife]

As long as America allows 14th Amendment corporations to exist in the economy Unions will be a necessary power balancing tool for ordinary people.

 

[Foxfyre]

And if WalMart did not employ them... ?

If a community will buy the stuff sold at a Walmart, then they presumably were buying it from small businesses before Walmart showed up. Those small businesses were employers who no longer exist, have been driven under by Walmart's illegal predatory pricing policies. It's a perfect storm, economically. Destroy the community's business sector, lower the average wage and trap people into buying as cheaply as possible because they earn so much less.

Ever heard the term "company store"?

Interesting perspective. How far back in time would we need to go in terms of commerce for you to be happy? Local bakeries were replaced by larger bakeries. The milkman used to own a cow or two and sold the milk in the village. Woolworths replaced many local neighborhood stores. That was in the early 20th Century. Sears, JC Penney and Wards were all supplanters of the local guy.

Lowes and Home Depot overwhelmed ACE which previously had overwhelmed other non affiliated hardware outlets.

Do you recomend that the extensive selection, low pricing, convenient hours and central locations which take advantage of the automobile culture be simply swept away in favor of the limited selection, limited hours, limited access and limited floor space of the outdated General Stores of years past?

Should we also close restaurants that have more than one location? How about gas stations? Department stores? Malls? Hospitals? How limited are you demanding that our selection become for you to be happy?

One last thing. Look at any WalMart. Check the surrounding small businesses that have a niche clientel. Every WalMart has a shelf life of 10 years at which point it simply closes and reopens in a different spot nearby. What happens to those Niche marketers. They close. Without WalMart's draw, they have no traffic, business and no purpose to stay open.

How do you feel about internet marketers? Should this be illegal in your world of yesterday? How about the Sears catalogue?

You can spend your life fighting the current or find out where the flow is going and use for your benefit.

Well said, Code. The mom and pop stores are still out there, but only when they adjust to the current and find a way to offer products and services that the big box stores cannot. We still go to the mom & pop computer repair shop down the street for custom built coputers, repairs, upgrades, advice, and counsel that Best Buy or Circuit City simply aren't equipped to provide. But the mom & pop store is foolish to attempt to compete with the big stores in products the big stores are equipped to provide.

And in our stressed out, time conscious, and highly mobile lifestyles these days, people aren't as willing to spend hours either shopping or waiting on stuff to be ordered as they once were. So the mom & pop retail stores do need one or more big anchor stores that pull large numbers of people into an area. That way if one place doesn't have an item, there is likely another store in the same complex that does. Such merchants are also fully aware of what their neighbors are selling too, and intentionally compliment that. There is a reason restaurants tend to sort of clump together any more. Most get a lot more customers that way. There is a reason auto dealers are found mostly in one area of the city. They get a lot more lookers and prospective buyers that way.

To expect nothing to change, to demonize those who have found ways to make it work in an increasingly tough market, is to think we still need as many fabric stores even though few people now take the time to make their own clothes. It is to think we still need wagon wheel and buggy whip factories or pay phones on every corner.

Times do change. Sometimes we don't like it, but we might as well accept it. And I for one appreciate a Wal-mart or Lowes or Sears or whatever big grocery store chain where I am fairly sure I'll find the item I'm needing at the moment. That doesn't make them evil in any sense of the word. It is just the way it is.

 

[HUGGY]

If a community will buy the stuff sold at a Walmart, then they presumably were buying it from small businesses before Walmart showed up. Those small businesses were employers who no longer exist, have been driven under by Walmart's illegal predatory pricing policies. It's a perfect storm, economically. Destroy the community's business sector, lower the average wage and trap people into buying as cheaply as possible because they earn so much less.

Ever heard the term "company store"?

Interesting perspective. How far back in time would we need to go in terms of commerce for you to be happy? Local bakeries were replaced by larger bakeries. The milkman used to own a cow or two and sold the milk in the village. Woolworths replaced many local neighborhood stores. That was in the early 20th Century. Sears, JC Penney and Wards were all supplanters of the local guy.

Lowes and Home Depot overwhelmed ACE which previously had overwhelmed other non affiliated hardware outlets.

Do you recomend that the extensive selection, low pricing, convenient hours and central locations which take advantage of the automobile culture be simply swept away in favor of the limited selection, limited hours, limited access and limited floor space of the outdated General Stores of years past?

Should we also close restaurants that have more than one location? How about gas stations? Department stores? Malls? Hospitals? How limited are you demanding that our selection become for you to be happy?

One last thing. Look at any WalMart. Check the surrounding small businesses that have a niche clientel. Every WalMart has a shelf life of 10 years at which point it simply closes and reopens in a different spot nearby. What happens to those Niche marketers. They close. Without WalMart's draw, they have no traffic, business and no purpose to stay open.

How do you feel about internet marketers? Should this be illegal in your world of yesterday? How about the Sears catalogue?

You can spend your life fighting the current or find out where the flow is going and use for your benefit.

Well said, Code. The mom and pop stores are still out there, but only when they adjust to the current and find a way to offer products and services that the big box stores cannot. We still go to the mom & pop computer repair shop down the street for custom built coputers, repairs, upgrades, advice, and counsel that Best Buy or Circuit City simply aren't equipped to provide. But the mom & pop store is foolish to attempt to compete with the big stores in products the big stores are equipped to provide.

And in our stressed out, time conscious, and highly mobile lifestyles these days, people aren't as willing to spend hours either shopping or waiting on stuff to be ordered as they once were. So the mom & pop retail stores do need one or more big anchor stores that pull large numbers of people into an area. That way if one place doesn't have an item, there is likely another store in the same complex that does. Such merchants are also fully aware of what their neighbors are selling too, and intentionally compliment that. There is a reason restaurants tend to sort of clump together any more. Most get a lot more customers that way. There is a reason auto dealers are found mostly in one area of the city. They get a lot more lookers and prospective buyers that way.

To expect nothing to change, to demonize those who have found ways to make it work in an increasingly tough market, is to think we still need as many fabric stores even though few people now take the time to make their own clothes. It is to think we still need wagon wheel and buggy whip factories or pay phones on every corner.

Times do change. Sometimes we don't like it, but we might as well accept it. And I for one appreciate a Wal-mart or Lowes or Sears or whatever big grocery store chain where I am fairly sure I'll find the item I'm needing at the moment. That doesn't make them evil in any sense of the word. It is just the way it is.

I'm sure the walmart greeters are grateful as shit for your business. So are the Chinese. Piss on you and anyone that shops there. I never have and never will.

I hope that little bit of money you save is worth it for those of you that don't care about your community. You should all be sporting Chinese flags on your porches so your neighbors know what traitors you really are.

 

[Foxfyre]

Interesting perspective. How far back in time would we need to go in terms of commerce for you to be happy? Local bakeries were replaced by larger bakeries. The milkman used to own a cow or two and sold the milk in the village. Woolworths replaced many local neighborhood stores. That was in the early 20th Century. Sears, JC Penney and Wards were all supplanters of the local guy.

Lowes and Home Depot overwhelmed ACE which previously had overwhelmed other non affiliated hardware outlets.

Do you recomend that the extensive selection, low pricing, convenient hours and central locations which take advantage of the automobile culture be simply swept away in favor of the limited selection, limited hours, limited access and limited floor space of the outdated General Stores of years past?

Should we also close restaurants that have more than one location? How about gas stations? Department stores? Malls? Hospitals? How limited are you demanding that our selection become for you to be happy?

One last thing. Look at any WalMart. Check the surrounding small businesses that have a niche clientel. Every WalMart has a shelf life of 10 years at which point it simply closes and reopens in a different spot nearby. What happens to those Niche marketers. They close. Without WalMart's draw, they have no traffic, business and no purpose to stay open.

How do you feel about internet marketers? Should this be illegal in your world of yesterday? How about the Sears catalogue?

You can spend your life fighting the current or find out where the flow is going and use for your benefit.

Well said, Code. The mom and pop stores are still out there, but only when they adjust to the current and find a way to offer products and services that the big box stores cannot. We still go to the mom & pop computer repair shop down the street for custom built coputers, repairs, upgrades, advice, and counsel that Best Buy or Circuit City simply aren't equipped to provide. But the mom & pop store is foolish to attempt to compete with the big stores in products the big stores are equipped to provide.

And in our stressed out, time conscious, and highly mobile lifestyles these days, people aren't as willing to spend hours either shopping or waiting on stuff to be ordered as they once were. So the mom & pop retail stores do need one or more big anchor stores that pull large numbers of people into an area. That way if one place doesn't have an item, there is likely another store in the same complex that does. Such merchants are also fully aware of what their neighbors are selling too, and intentionally compliment that. There is a reason restaurants tend to sort of clump together any more. Most get a lot more customers that way. There is a reason auto dealers are found mostly in one area of the city. They get a lot more lookers and prospective buyers that way.

To expect nothing to change, to demonize those who have found ways to make it work in an increasingly tough market, is to think we still need as many fabric stores even though few people now take the time to make their own clothes. It is to think we still need wagon wheel and buggy whip factories or pay phones on every corner.

Times do change. Sometimes we don't like it, but we might as well accept it. And I for one appreciate a Wal-mart or Lowes or Sears or whatever big grocery store chain where I am fairly sure I'll find the item I'm needing at the moment. That doesn't make them evil in any sense of the word. It is just the way it is.

I'm sure the walmart greeters are grateful as shit for your business. So are the Chinese. Piss on you and anyone that shops there. I never have and never will.

I hope that little bit of money you save is worth it for those of you that don't care about your community. You should all be sporting Chinese flags on your porches so your neighbors know what traitors you really are.

Aw Huggy, you're so sweet.

Maybe I made your list now?