American Unions -- Good or Bad for America?

[Madeline]

Here are just a few of Walmart employees' problems:

Extremely poor wages, usually no more than $1 above minimum wage even for the most experienced hourly workers.

No benefits, or none paid for by the employer.

Not enough employees hired and paid as full time; too many scheduled at 35 hours a week or less to prevent them from becoming FT.

Forcing employees to work off the clock. (This is a repeated Walmart labor law violation that has occured so often it has the appearance of de facto company policy.)

Unfair labor practices aimed at preventing unionization, including wrongful discharge of employees that try to promote organizing.

Oddly, Walmart announced today (June 3, 2010) that it will help pay the cost of an employee's tuition to an on-line university called American Public University -- brick and mortar schools will not be eligible for the reimbursement. While the move seems pro-employee, the fact is these degrees may not be marketable to other employers. If an employee gambles and takes on student loan debt in an effort to find a way to earn a decent of standard of living working for Walmart and that never happenes, Walmart will have mislead that employee into non-bankruptable debt that may break the backs of the families dependent on this company. I read this story and my first thought was "who owns this college? I have never even heard of it before." I am willing to bet $5, it is owned in some indirect way by Walmart.

Walmart launches employee college plan | cleveland.com

I see this as more "window dressing" to try and halt the employees' efforts to unionize.

I will freely admit that I despise Walmart. As all of us know, a Walmart will kill the business center of a neighborhood or small town, and the loss of those jobs is yet another predatory act that damages Walmart employees. They cannot find other employment (or lose the income from a small business they owned killed by Walmart) and are stuck with working for Walmart as their only option.

WalMart is Pure Evil

 

[syrenn]

Here are just a few of Walmart employees' problems:

Extremely poor wages, usually no more than $1 above minimum wage even for the most experienced hourly workers.

No benefits, or none paid for by the employer.

Not enough employees hired and paid as full time; too many scheduled at 35 hours a week or less to prevent them from becoming FT.

Forcing employees to work off the clock. (This is a repeated Walmart labor law violation that has occured so often it has the appearance of de facto company policy.)

Unfair labor practices aimed at preventing unionization, including wrongful discharge of employees that try to promote organizing.

Oddly, Walmart announced today (June 3, 2010) that it will help pay the cost of an employee's tuition to an on-line university called American Public University -- brick and mortar schools will not be eligible for the reimbursement. While the move seems pro-employee, the fact is these degrees may not be marketable to other employers. If an employee gambles and takes on student loan debt in an effort to find a way to earn a decent of standard of living working for Walmart and that never happenes, Walmart will have mislead that employee into non-bankruptable debt that may break the backs of the families dependent on this company. I read this story and my first thought was "who owns this college? I have never even heard of it before." I am willing to bet $5, it is owned in some indirect way by Walmart.

Walmart launches employee college plan | cleveland.com

I see this as more "window dressing" to try and halt the employees' efforts to unionize.

I will freely admit that I despise Walmart. As all of us know, a Walmart will kill the business center of a neighborhood or small town, and the loss of those jobs is yet another predatory act that damages Walmart employees. They cannot find other employment (or lose the income from a small business they owned killed by Walmart) and are stuck with working for Walmart as their only option.

WalMart is Pure Evil

Wallmart may what their souls but the union only wants their dues.

Which is worse?

 

[SFC Ollie]

According to Walmart:

The majority of their Employees are full time.

The average Hourly wage for full time employees is $11.75 per Hour.

Employees full and part time can become eligible for health care benefits.

In 2009 Wal-mart paid out over $2billion in bonuses and 401K.

Doesn't sound so bad to me.

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[Foxfyre]

According to Walmart:

The majority of their Employees are full time.

The average Hourly wage for full time employees is $11.75 per Hour.

Employees full and part time can become eligible for health care benefits.

In 2009 Wal-mart paid out over $2billion in bonuses and 401K.

Doesn't sound so bad to me.

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Also all tenured Wal-mart employees are eligible to buy company stock and thus a share in the company. More than a few have been able to acquire sufficient wealth that way to be able to retire quite comfortably. And yeah, the few folks I know who work for Wal-mart all agree they work there because its just fun. My sis and brother-in-law, when they retired from a lifetime as educators in the NM schools--he was Superintendent of Schools--applied to be greeters at Wal-mart just for fun. With their skill sets, Wal-mart put them into other positions, and they had a ball for some time before they moved on to other things.

 

[Big Fitz]

Two step program for those who hate Wal-Mart.

1. Don't shop there.
2. Don't work there.

There. Problem solved.

 

[Madeline]

Deciding not to work at or shop at Walmart's requires a level of ease in one's life not everyone has, Big Fritz.

 

[FA_Q2]

This is similar to another post I placed in another thread but it hits here as well-

Deciding not to work at or shop at Walmart's requires a level of ease in one's life not everyone has, Big Fritz.

I call complete BS on that one. There is NO ONE that must work or shop at Wal-Mart. If you truly cared you would avoid that store. My wife worked at Wal-Mart and she can attest to the excellent treatment of the workers there. They are MORE than accommodating to their employees. Yes, most of them make near minimum wage and they are full of complaints but that is because most of them are ignorant high school students whose work ethics are not worth half minimum wage not to mention all of it. You will always get complaints and low pay out of unskilled labor positions as that is the very nature of those jobs. Anyone can do it and take your place. In most smaller communities (like the one we were in at the time) Wal-Mart is one of the best, most coveted jobs in the aria.

To the bigger question - Unions

I have firsthand experience from the outside of corrupt unions as I have worked in the drywall industry in California and my family owns a drywall and framing company that works in California. I can tell you now that there is no requirement for a company to become union but a union company may ONLY hire union workers and they MUST be union to take union jobs. CA is not a right to work state and the unions there wield unprecedented power. We have had union hired thugs go to our sites and physically ATTACK our workers as well as steal and break tools/materials. For a good ten years it was quite but recently there has been another uptick in the violence in unions due to the hard economic times. CA is a shining example of why unions in their current form need to be abolished. I have heard many good things about unions in right to work states but have not had the personal experience to say whether or not they are a good thing. It seems to me that unions in a right to work state force the competition to giving competitive wages but, since there is no requirement to hire union or continue to employ them when on strike, the corporations that have unionized workers have a recourse when the unions ask too much. I see no issue with allowing a company to fire a union worker because they are not worth the wage the union requires the company to pay. For me, that is what is needed to make the unions useful again, the ability to fire the union workers.


The other issue is the government sector unions. Those need to be abolished flat out. No government job should EVER have a union and no government contract should ever require a union. There have been many good reasons already stated for this so I will digress.

 

[editec]

Unions were a boon to the working class until their jobs went offshore.

If you believe that this democratic republic requires a vibrant middle class, then you have to tip your hats to unionism.

But unions are much like every other complex social system that mankind creates.

They are subject to elitism, classism and corruption.

 

[Bfgrn]

To Quantum Windbag: You see no present day value from unions? What about the workers at Walmarts who are so badly exploited?

Just because you, and the unions, think they are exploited does not mean that they are. They have consistently voted against unionizing, so they must think they are doing pretty good. Why do you think the unions want the card check law?

Card check - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very interesting stuff, Quantum Windbag. But do you deny Walmarts exploits its workers? Or that the company routinely engages in unfair labor practices? If Walmarts workers were unionized, wages would rise (one would expect) so that a living wage would be possible, at least for senior people.

Is this something we no longer desire for American workers?

Unions have brought American workers job security, benefits, safer working conditions, better wages.....like anyone else, they can go too far, but a middle class standard of living would not be possible for many American families without unions.

I'm not seeing the down side.

Walmart doesn't ONLY exploit their workers...they exploit every community and the taxpayers...

How...corporate cost externalization affectionately known as corporate welfare

According to a 2004 report released by U.S. Representative George Miller, one 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,000 per year because of the need for federal aid (such as housing assistance, tax credits, and health insurance assistance) for Wal-Mart's low-wage employees.

 

[FA_Q2]

Just because you, and the unions, think they are exploited does not mean that they are. They have consistently voted against unionizing, so they must think they are doing pretty good. Why do you think the unions want the card check law?

Card check - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very interesting stuff, Quantum Windbag. But do you deny Walmarts exploits its workers? Or that the company routinely engages in unfair labor practices? If Walmarts workers were unionized, wages would rise (one would expect) so that a living wage would be possible, at least for senior people.

Is this something we no longer desire for American workers?

Unions have brought American workers job security, benefits, safer working conditions, better wages.....like anyone else, they can go too far, but a middle class standard of living would not be possible for many American families without unions.

I'm not seeing the down side.

Walmart doesn't ONLY exploit their workers...they exploit every community and the taxpayers...

How...corporate cost externalization affectionately known as corporate welfare

According to a 2004 report released by U.S. Representative George Miller, one 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,000 per year because of the need for federal aid (such as housing assistance, tax credits, and health insurance assistance) for Wal-Mart's low-wage employees.

Who would need the EXACT SAME benefits no matter where they worked. This is how capitalism works. Try and keep up here because this is rather simple. Unskilled labor is the most proliferate and available labor there is, anyone can do it and that supply drives down its worth. Retail is full of those jobs as is fast food. Many of these people are directly out of high school and may not even have finished and others are retired people on SS that can't work ANYWHERE else as door greeter is pretty darn easy and not many companies will pay people to do it. That labor will be low paid no matter where it goes and would use a lot more money if they were not employed at all. The ONLY reason Wal-Mart is targeted is its size and that is ludicrous. They provide millions of retail jobs and people like you complain because they are not gold plating them as skilled craftsman. Don't like all those people they employs, go get gouged at another store that employs a fraction of people and pays them the same low wage.

 

[Bfgrn]

Card check - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very interesting stuff, Quantum Windbag. But do you deny Walmarts exploits its workers? Or that the company routinely engages in unfair labor practices? If Walmarts workers were unionized, wages would rise (one would expect) so that a living wage would be possible, at least for senior people.

Is this something we no longer desire for American workers?

Unions have brought American workers job security, benefits, safer working conditions, better wages.....like anyone else, they can go too far, but a middle class standard of living would not be possible for many American families without unions.

I'm not seeing the down side.

Walmart doesn't ONLY exploit their workers...they exploit every community and the taxpayers...

How...corporate cost externalization affectionately known as corporate welfare

According to a 2004 report released by U.S. Representative George Miller, one 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,000 per year because of the need for federal aid (such as housing assistance, tax credits, and health insurance assistance) for Wal-Mart's low-wage employees.

Who would need the EXACT SAME benefits no matter where they worked. This is how capitalism works. Try and keep up here because this is rather simple. Unskilled labor is the most proliferate and available labor there is, anyone can do it and that supply drives down its worth. Retail is full of those jobs as is fast food. Many of these people are directly out of high school and may not even have finished and others are retired people on SS that can't work ANYWHERE else as door greeter is pretty darn easy and not many companies will pay people to do it. That labor will be low paid no matter where it goes and would use a lot more money if they were not employed at all. The ONLY reason Wal-Mart is targeted is its size and that is ludicrous. They provide millions of retail jobs and people like you complain because they are not gold plating them as skilled craftsman. Don't like all those people they employs, go get gouged at another store that employs a fraction of people and pays them the same low wage.

Actually pea brain, I've lived long enough the SEE the horrible effects of the 'Walmarting' of America. Large corporations have forced their way into every area of enterprise and crushed the mom & pop stores, delicatessens, bakeries, clothing stores and millions of other small businesses that used to not only serve the public, but enhanced their communities. Many competent civic and political leaders came from that fertile human culture.

Walmart is just the flagship of a corporate takeover of America. The products they sell are NOT American made, they're produced in 3rd world countries where human beings are exploited and abused. Maybe YOUR scummy soul is willing to have your taxes fund corporate welfare, but corporate cost externalization cost We, the People TRILLIONS of dollars per year.

15 years ago, it was $3.5 trillion...

Factoring in workplace injuries, medical care required by the failure of unsafe products, health costs from pollution, and many others, external costs to U.S. taxpayers totaled $3.5 trillion in 1995 - four times higher than the profits of U.S. corporations that year ($822 billion). This sort of externalization toll is routinely evident in hazy skies, injured consumers, and impoverished workers in the United States and elsewhere.

 

[FA_Q2]

Blah blah hate hate evil corporations blah blah....

I should not be surprised at insults coming from you but whatever. Corporations are not evil or wrong. If you dislike a corporation the simple answer is do not shop there. If they were so toxic to communities then people would not shop their ether and the small shops so good they would continue to get business. I would get into the nuances of mom and pop vs. large corporations but I do not think you would have an hones debate in that arena, too much hate and partisanship clouding your vision. If there is a problem it is within the laws that said corporations operate under as it is the governments job to provide those protections. I do believe we are lacking in that arena as corporations wield far too much influence within the government where they should have little to none but that is not the topic here. It is unions and Wal-Mart has not unionized at the behest of the workers. They don't want the corruption and I applaud them for it.

 

[AllieBaba]

To Quantum Windbag: You see no present day value from unions? What about the workers at Walmarts who are so badly exploited?

To Defiant: How can a man or woman be liable for the sins of their great-grandparents? What about the sins of the wealthy business owners, who murdered and committed mayhem in the early days to bust unions? Are their great-grandchildren vicariously liable as well?

yes Madeline, we know...you're supportive of evil, so long as it does one thing good. Hence your support of the killing of Hitler as a baby, and anyone else who happened to be with him in the theoretical house you would be willing to burn down.

Likewise, you don't care what the unions do to the country, the economy, or individual people because hey, they made it so we could overpay our workers and justify setting up shop in other countries!

Go unions. Yay.

 

[midcan5]

I vote good, as anything that helps to control power is good. We discussed this here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/50913-american-unions.html#post617599

I was listening to the radio this morning and I found all the ranting and raving about the loss of jobs in Louisiana over the drilling ban rather ironic and telling. How often do you hear, right wing conservatives, and supply side economists tell you it benefits all when costs are low. If that is true why drill at all! The middle east etc can supply us, right?

Then to add irony to the facts in my head I thought does anyone ever hear about all the jobs being shipped overseas. Weird outsourcing doesn't get daily coverage. Jeez, if I were a cynic I'd think media was corporate owned operated and reality based. Nah!

 

[WillowTree]

Two step program for those who hate Wal-Mart.

1. Don't shop there.
2. Don't work there.

There. Problem solved.

how perfectly simple. huh?

 

[Bern80]

To Quantum Windbag: You see no present day value from unions? What about the workers at Walmarts who are so badly exploited?

To Defiant: How can a man or woman be liable for the sins of their great-grandparents? What about the sins of the wealthy business owners, who murdered and committed mayhem in the early days to bust unions? Are their great-grandchildren vicariously liable as well?

exploitation implies lack of choice..........

 

[antagon]

I vote good, as anything that helps to control power is good.

spoken as if union power is under control.

 

[Bern80]

The problem with unions is fairly prevalent just by looking at the teacher's union. They have long ceased to be 'about the kids' contrary to what they would like you to believe. Can you imagine being a boss and it being nearly impossible to fire a bad employee? That's what the teacher's union has become.

 

[Foxfyre]

The problem with unions is fairly prevalent just by looking at the teacher's union. They have long ceased to be 'about the kids' contrary to what they would like you to believe. Can you imagine being a boss and it being nearly impossible to fire a bad employee? That's what the teacher's union has become.

This is true. Unions are hand in hand with overreaching big government. School administrations have become further and further removed fromt he classrooms. School boards have become a stepping stone to 'greater things' or a means to force ideology and indoctrination into the schools. None are focused on whether or how the kids are actually being educated in a way to develop knowledge of core subject matter, achieve important skill sets, and develop criticial thinking capability.

There are absolutely wonderful and amazing gifted teachers in the system, but the system itself makes it very difficult for such teachers to make a significant difference. The system also attracts very poor teachers and then shelters them until they achieve tenure making it almost impossible to get rid of them.

There simply has to be a better way.

 

[Mr Natural]

I vote good, as anything that helps to control power is good.

spoken as if union power is under control.

Unions don't have half the influence they did back in the '50s when our nation was at it's most prosperous.

Coincidence? I think not.