Bad Cases Make Bad Laws

The Rabbi

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Sep 16, 2009
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have been thinking recently in light of the BP spill and what's going to come after it about bad cases and bad laws.
Here are three:
1) Columbine school shooting. Group of teenagers shot up their school, killing several before killing themselves. Result: Assault Weapons Ban.
The AWB ran from 1994 to 2004 and banned manufacture of magazines over 10 rounds and certain "assault weapons" (ill defined) with certain features. The result of the law was that "pre ban" items went for many times their actual value (I remember selling hi cap Glock mags for $100. After the ban they were $25). It did not prevent any school shooting thereafter and indeed there were several after Columbine. And since "assault weapons" (however defined) did not account for many crimes, the restriction did not have any effect on crime. Indeed, crime rates fell after the ban ended.

2) Enron. Executives defrauded stock holders by cooking the books. Result: Sarbanes-Oxley.
Sarbanes Oxley mandates certain types of accounting and puts executives at criminal risk for mis-statements in corporate reporting forms. The result has been to increase tremendously the costs of compliance such that many small companies have not gone public, and others have had LBO's and gone private. Additionally IPOs have been floated in other countries increasingly with fewer restrictions, costing the U.S. money. Certainly there have been no frauds prevented, as Madoff, AIG, and other scandals have developed.

3) BP. Deep water drilling platform explodes and spews oil from well into the ocean. Result: Ban on off shore drilling. Other laws in the pipe line.
I don't know how many off shore wells have been drilled and have functioned just fine over the last 30 years. I would guess lots. But drilling--any industrial activity--entails risk and the record of the oil industry has been excellent. So one has to ask, how will shutting down off shore drilling really help anything? It will cost many many jobs at a time of high unemployment. It will do nothing to stop the present disaster and only has a slight chance of stopping any future disaster. If we eliminate all risk then we also eliminate any possible benefit from the activity. At that point we all need to stay home in bed.

I am sure there are many many other examples. I think the solution is to make a 6 month moratorium on laws after any event.
 
It's the logical result of Big Government types always seeking a pretext to expand the scope of government power - and cynical career politicians who are always ready to exploit a news sensation for their personal gain.
 
agreed--any knee jerk reaction by Congress will be costlier than doing nothing. They can't think past the next election anyway.
 
It's the logical result of Big Government types always seeking a pretext to expand the scope of government power - and cynical career politicians who are always ready to exploit a news sensation for their personal gain.

Nahhh. That never happens.

Just once I'd like to hear a politician say: X is a big problem. But X is not a problem government can solve and if we try we will likely make things worse. The best thing is for families/communities/cities/states/non profits to address X and make it better.

That man would have my vote.
 
It's the logical result of Big Government types always seeking a pretext to expand the scope of government power - and cynical career politicians who are always ready to exploit a news sensation for their personal gain.

Nahhh. That never happens.

Just once I'd like to hear a politician say: X is a big problem. But X is not a problem government can solve and if we try we will likely make things worse. The best thing is for families/communities/cities/states/non profits to address X and make it better.

That man would have my vote.

Mine too.
 
"It did not prevent any school shooting thereafter"

As much as I dislike the law I have to say that that's really impossible to tell.
 
"It did not prevent any school shooting thereafter"

As much as I dislike the law I have to say that that's really impossible to tell.

That's like saying our murder laws haven't prevented any murders, therefore we should get rid of them.
 
2) Enron. Executives defrauded stock holders by cooking the books. Result: Sarbanes-Oxley.
Sarbanes Oxley mandates certain types of accounting and puts executives at criminal risk for mis-statements in corporate reporting forms. The result has been to increase tremendously the costs of compliance such that many small companies have not gone public, and others have had LBO's and gone private. Additionally IPOs have been floated in other countries increasingly with fewer restrictions, costing the U.S. money. Certainly there have been no frauds prevented, as Madoff, AIG, and other scandals have developed.

This is a good thing. The fact that executives have to sign off on the statements will make them actually be sure that what's on there is right. I don't see why you think Sarbanes Oxley was suppose to stop Bernie Madoff or AIG. It wasn't the end all to end all Wall Street Corruption laws. However, nothing like Enron has happened since.
 
2) Enron. Executives defrauded stock holders by cooking the books. Result: Sarbanes-Oxley.
Sarbanes Oxley mandates certain types of accounting and puts executives at criminal risk for mis-statements in corporate reporting forms. The result has been to increase tremendously the costs of compliance such that many small companies have not gone public, and others have had LBO's and gone private. Additionally IPOs have been floated in other countries increasingly with fewer restrictions, costing the U.S. money. Certainly there have been no frauds prevented, as Madoff, AIG, and other scandals have developed.

This is a good thing. The fact that executives have to sign off on the statements will make them actually be sure that what's on there is right. I don't see why you think Sarbanes Oxley was suppose to stop Bernie Madoff or AIG. It wasn't the end all to end all Wall Street Corruption laws. However, nothing like Enron has happened since.

You're joking, right?
Sarbox has done nothing but drive up costs. Of course for a socialist like yourself that's a good thing because it's soaking all those fat cats. Right?
 
You're joking, right?
Sarbox has done nothing but drive up costs. Of course for a socialist like yourself that's a good thing because it's soaking all those fat cats. Right?

You act like holding executives responsible is a bad thing. Name one incident that was Enron-like since Sarbanes Oxley was put into place. The fact you think Enron, AIG, and Bernie Madoff are all the same thing smacks of rabid ignorance.
 
You're joking, right?
Sarbox has done nothing but drive up costs. Of course for a socialist like yourself that's a good thing because it's soaking all those fat cats. Right?

You act like holding executives responsible is a bad thing. Name one incident that was Enron-like since Sarbanes Oxley was put into place. The fact you think Enron, AIG, and Bernie Madoff are all the same thing smacks of rabid ignorance.

They aren't all the same thing.
Name one scandal that Sarbox has prevented.
The law already held executives to a standard.
 
They aren't all the same thing.
Name one scandal that Sarbox has prevented.
The law already held executives to a standard.

So you want me to make up a imaginary scandal that SO has prevented? Or you want me to name some random scandal that it didn't prevent? :cuckoo:
 
What constitutes a "bad" law?


One based on particular circumstances for which specific individuals are accountable without representing any real systemic societal risk.
 
You're joking, right?
Sarbox has done nothing but drive up costs. Of course for a socialist like yourself that's a good thing because it's soaking all those fat cats. Right?

You act like holding executives responsible is a bad thing. Name one incident that was Enron-like since Sarbanes Oxley was put into place. The fact you think Enron, AIG, and Bernie Madoff are all the same thing smacks of rabid ignorance.

They aren't all the same thing.
Name one scandal that Sarbox has prevented.
The law already held executives to a standard.


All Sarbox has accomplished is to drain cash from decent companies into the coffers of lawyers and accountants. It has yielded no real benefit for the shareholders it was supposedly designed to help. Quite the opposite, actually - by making private companies less profitable and adding a huge expense burden, many smaller companies are forced into M&A when in the past, an IPO would have been the proper liquidity event.
 
"It did not prevent any school shooting thereafter"

As much as I dislike the law I have to say that that's really impossible to tell.

That's like saying our murder laws haven't prevented any murders, therefore we should get rid of them.

No, because to be like saying, "Murder laws don't prevent murders", it would have to be UNTRUE. AWB did nothing to prevent school shootings, but murder laws DO prevent murders.

You leftists just can't ever wrap your mind around the idea that some things aren't all or nothing, can you?
 
No, because to be like saying, "Murder laws don't prevent murders", it would have to be UNTRUE. AWB did nothing to prevent school shootings, but murder laws DO prevent murders.

You leftists just can't ever wrap your mind around the idea that some things aren't all or nothing, can you?

And how do you know AWB did nothing to prevent school shootings? Oh wait, that's right, you don't.
 
No, because to be like saying, "Murder laws don't prevent murders", it would have to be UNTRUE. AWB did nothing to prevent school shootings, but murder laws DO prevent murders.

You leftists just can't ever wrap your mind around the idea that some things aren't all or nothing, can you?

And how do you know AWB did nothing to prevent school shootings? Oh wait, that's right, you don't.

Did we continue to have an epidemic of school shootings after Columbine? Why, yes, I believe we did. It's funny how you can shoot people with guns that don't fall under the heading of "assault weapon", huh?

So yeah, I think I can state with some certainty that AWB didn't prevent school shootings. If you'd like to submit some sort of evidence showing that AWB prevented even ONE school shooting, feel free. In fact, if you'd like to submit some evidence that AWB accomplished ANY of the things we were told we had to have it to accomplish, I'd love to hear it.
 

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