American exceptionalism and the bullshit it is

[waltky]

Granny says...

... `merica...

... love it or leave it.

 

[squeeze berry]

I ve heard this a lot in election speeches, but one thing about the arrongance behind this idea is that it doesn't meet the reality.

Let s start:

The symbol of America: The man who built the statue of Liberty was a Frenchman (the same man who build the eiffel tower)

Another symbol of America: the American National Anthem is a story about Fort McHenry and Americans in there surviving a huge naval bombardment that would ve annahilated them with the big US Flag if it wasn't for the French Engineering that had been used to build it.

The first American on the moon: One of the biggest triumphs of US history is the one of the Nation that put the first man on the moon. The fact of the matter is that it was German technology that made it work and Nazi-German scientists that were key to making it work: the truth is that German efficiency got American astronauts on the moon. Wernher von Braun: Rocket Man for War and Peace - Part 1.1 - YouTube


The idea that Americans have nothing to learn from others because Americans are the best in everything is just idiotically stupid, as some of the Biggest American Accomplishments where enabled by non-Americans (including the US independence that was enabled by the French Fleet helping the Americans during the war of independence)

did you mention where you are from?

 

[Ernie S.]

I ve heard this a lot in election speeches, but one thing about the arrongance behind this idea is that it doesn't meet the reality.

Let s start:

The symbol of America: The man who built the statue of Liberty was a Frenchman (the same man who build the eiffel tower)

Another symbol of America: the American National Anthem is a story about Fort McHenry and Americans in there surviving a huge naval bombardment that would ve annahilated them with the big US Flag if it wasn't for the French Engineering that had been used to build it.

The first American on the moon: One of the biggest triumphs of US history is the one of the Nation that put the first man on the moon. The fact of the matter is that it was German technology that made it work and Nazi-German scientists that were key to making it work: the truth is that German efficiency got American astronauts on the moon. Wernher von Braun: Rocket Man for War and Peace - Part 1.1 - YouTube


The idea that Americans have nothing to learn from others because Americans are the best in everything is just idiotically stupid, as some of the Biggest American Accomplishments where enabled by non-Americans (including the US independence that was enabled by the French Fleet helping the Americans during the war of independence)

Of course people of other nations contribute to technology, but the vast majority of technological advancement in the last hundred years has come from the US.

Von Braun copied Goddard, you fool.

At the time, Germany was highly interested in American physicist Robert H. Goddard's research. Before 1939, German scientists occasionally contacted Goddard directly with technical questions.[11] Von Braun used Goddard's plans from various journals and incorporated them into the building of the Aggregat (A) series of rockets.[11]

 

[Dot Com]

"American exceptionalism" is a phrase the Republican party has adopted and I agree that it sounds arrogant. The Democrats say America is the greatest but I, and I believe we, don't mean it in an arrogant way.

yes but they have taken it a step further in that they espouse that its inherited as opposed to earned.

 

[Amazed]

YOU f..king IDiOT!!!
YOU and other pompous cliched idiots seem to think that when logical people speak of "American Exceptionalism"
it is bad! It is terrible! It is ARROGANT!

Well I don't!
I think of the MILLIONS of "EXCEPTIONAL" People that come to America BECAUSE they can BE exceptional!
Idiots LIKE you want to constrain that individuality! You ridicule those people that want to better themselves BY coming to America!
And THEN you have the f...ing idiocy to criticize America for coming to the aid of countries that SENT those exceptional people and whose relatives are being slaughtered i.e. German Jews, Asians Vietnam, Iraqis middle east!
YOU ridicule America's aiding these countries that are homelands to now Americans!
Americans who come legally, get their citizenship and work at the exceptional characteristics that America allows
the freedom to blossom!
And you have the idiocy to criticize American exceptionalism!
NO other country has had as MANY people immigrate to and NO other country has come to the AID of countries as America has!
Get that stupid OLD fashioned liberal education meme out of your head!
America is EXCEPTIONAL because exceptional people come from countries that don't offer the same freedoms and opportunities to exploit the EXCEPTIONAL people!

Do you understand??? It is not a jingoistic statement to be proud and humble that America is so blessed with many natural resources AND foresight to allow such exceptionalism to bloom!!!

It s not bad to be Nationalistic, but there is a point when you become so Nationalistic that it becomes arrogant. The German Nazis also said they were better than anyone else, that they were a superior race. It turns out that they are not and were not. It is their arrogance that defeated themselves, the arrogance that they alone could take on the whole world.


America is not the only country where certain a big amount of civil liberties are possible, those are widespread among Western Nations. I m not criticizing America for coming to the aid of other countries or helping exceptional non-American scientists. I m saying that thinking that America has nothing to learn from other countries because your politicians say you re number 1 at everything is bullshit.


Americans have things to teach other countries, but Americans have things to learn too.

They can for example take an example to how Germany manages its debt and has a booming export economy with high paid jobs f.e. in the car industry. German cars even get exported to China, where their more expensive cars are preferred over very cheap Chinese cars.

The education system in other Western Nations that outperforms that of the USA

The public transport system of Japan, where they have 21st century trains and railways (not always the case in the US)

At least the US have taken an example how non-American countries are able to have a cheaper healthcare system (per capita costs of healthcare)

The American politicians can take an example at some countries that manage to make a government with 6 different political parties with 6 different ideologies, the US fails to make consensus between only 2 political parties and they do not even have to sit in the same government.

Yes, Americans are exceptional at some things like the computer operating systems and software (Macintosh & Windows) and probably loads of other areas. But to think you can not learn from anyone else is just stupid, I for example am glad other people correct my mistakes if I make them as I can improve myself that way (like the spelling mistakes I made earlier).

If you think you are an exceptional person or nation and are the best at doing almost anything then you take away your motivation to improve as your arrogance makes you think you got everything right

Are you Russian?

 

[squeeze berry]

"American exceptionalism" is a phrase the Republican party has adopted and I agree that it sounds arrogant. The Democrats say America is the greatest but I, and I believe we, don't mean it in an arrogant way.

yes but they have taken it a step further in that they espouse that its inherited as opposed to earned.

you mean like affirmative action?

 

[IGetItAlready]

I can"t believe how many posts there are in 1 thread without decent arguments ...

You want to think you re n° 1 at everything, well fine do that.

American isn't a race oh brilliant one. And I'd go one step further and claim that America isn't even a geographical region on a map or globe. The anti American sentiment which is wide spread in some foreign nations and which you illustrate our media has been at least marginally successful at importing isn't your run of the mill "racism" or a hatred of the American people. It's more about a resentment toward our way of life which btw, you can change in a heartbeat by simply jumping on a plane and never returning.
At the same time, America is an idea that many from all around the earth have bought into. No one is saying Americans have "nothing to learn from others", it's just that our ideas about personal freedom and liberty have a propensity for drawing pioneers of all sorts.
I get that this was intended to be some pissy little America bashing thread but don't you think you might first want to understand what America is before trying to tear her down?

I m not tearing down Americans, the thing is that Americans can do great things as I already said. But you have to admit that besides great things there are things that Americans can do better, I gave a big number of examples. And if you are a republican or a right winger then you should be able to acknowledge that Germany is better at managing its debt then the US.

But saying that you re the best at everything while you are not (as a person or as a country). This is what you hear a lot from right wing people, something like this

the United States is like the biblical "shining city on a hill," and exempt from historical forces that have affected other countries.

well that s the wikipedia version of the story of how neocons see it now


Having a lot of young people being broke before they even start their lives is not what will make a country great, it s what will kill your economy. I can agree that greed can be good, but in the US the greed to get money out of everything is disgusting in certain cases like healthcare: make profits at the cost of human lives?

If you have to choose between the system that makes more profits or more healthy people, do you choose for profits?

If you have to choose between the system that makes more profits or more good educated people, do you choose for profits?


Yes making more profits in a company that sells chairs/cars/... is good, even with the public transportation it can be good but making profits at the cost of a lot of people getting unhealthy/dead or a lot of peole being not able to educate themselves?

I doubt whether either of them learned how to revolutionize the computer industry from their short time at Harvard.

I was quite surprised by this myself, but it turns out 1 of them at least learned a big part of it in School. He took what he learned calligraphy and put it in the software and it is one of the things that revolutionized the industry


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA]Steve Jobs Stanford Commencement Speech 2005 - YouTube[/ame]

It shows how crucial education is even if you do not graduate from it, without his education and the education that his friend and engineer Steve Wozniak had Apple may never have existed.

To exclude a hughe ammount of people from education because you want some people to make a buck from it is the same as excluding the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates a crucial element that will make him/her succesfull

Another product of a failed Socialist Educations system Dominated by Unions.

Woo Hoo

Maybe I was wrong about exceptionalism: some Americans here really are exceptionally good at being a dick. No wonder it was the first name of the previous neocon right win vice president, you neocon right wingers really like dicks it seems

And I would agree that America has contributed much to mankind. However, I don't agree that there are a bunch of people, "neocon right wingers" you like to call them, who would take issue with the fact that there are great people all over the world. Shit, I'm guessing even Trollsland has contributed SOMETHING to the human species, which I'm assuming is from where you hail.

 

[flacaltenn]

YOU and other pompous cliched idiots seem to think that when logical people speak of "American Exceptionalism"
it is bad! It is terrible! It is ARROGANT!

Well I don't!

I just wish it were still true.

We've spent and spent and spent on everything EXCEPT becoming and staying Number One in anything EXCEPT the SIZE of our military.

The result is, $600 hammers, bases in friendly countries that do nothing but spend even more money and the damn pubs/pots want to add more.

We need education and infrastructure and JOBS but that's not what the GObP sold out to their overseers in return for buying the election. We NEED to invest in the USofA but Mitt invests ONLY in foreign countries. That's why he fits right in with the rest of the R party.

Bottom line is that our military is now bigger than the next 15 countries COMBINED. Do we really need to add more?

There it is.. The leftist revolution can't allow for America being exceptional because that reduces the need for MORE GOVT and MORE SPENDING. If they allow us to feel proud of ANYTHING in this country --- there will be less victimhood and need.

We should immediately start depressing our K-12 kids by teaching them how America had to steal Nazis to go to the moon. That's GREAT for morale.

Ask any coach about how a motivating speech in the locker room outlining EVERY WAY that team SUCKS --- will insure a better outcome on the field...

Ya WITH me MUMIN? Let's go out there and maintain our losing tradition!!!!!!!

 

[flacaltenn]

Same for freedom of speech, free press, the melting pot of more different cultures, ... it s all already adopted in WEstern Europe

You might want to look into that one a little more closely, Euro-phile.

You can spend time in jail in Canada or Europe for some of the stuff you see on USMB everyday.. Not to mention the absolute silliness of England's ASBO (sic?) Aberrant Social Behaviour Orders where a judge can restrain a person from speaking any arbitrary word. Or the ban on wearing religious garb in France.

 

[Munin]

There it is.. The leftist revolution can't allow for America being exceptional because that reduces the need for MORE GOVT and MORE SPENDING. If they allow us to feel proud of ANYTHING in this country --- there will be less victimhood and need.

We should immediately start depressing our K-12 kids by teaching them how America had to steal Nazis to go to the moon. That's GREAT for morale.

Ask any coach about how a motivating speech in the locker room outlining EVERY WAY that team SUCKS --- will insure a better outcome on the field...

Ya WITH me MUMIN? Let's go out there and maintain our losing tradition!!!!!!!

Yes I get it, you make very good arguments. It s a speech to kick up morale, it is Nationalism. I should know after all, I m quite Nationalistic myself but not to the point that I think my countrymen can do everything better than any other country. I only think they re the best at drinking and making beer, only if we re drunk we can pretend that we re the best at everything . So take a guess, which countries big multinational beer company has taken over some of the biggest American beer companies?


No you shouldn't start depressing your kids, it is indeed a great country that can accept people for who they are and not just judge them for what country they came from. It is a great country where people who got to the moon first by not judging and killing people for being born in the wrong country: Nazi Germans were all declared enemies and working with the former enemies is what got the Americans on the moon (that is indeed something good too). That notion of tolerance, acceptance that some foreigners can do certain things better (while this can not be said by all foreigners of course) is what makes the US great. It s the coöperation of Americans with other Nations and American acception that some people both in their country and out of it have better ideas than themeselves, it does make it a great country. But if you go as far as saying you re the best at everything, you just take it one step too far and if you teach that to your kids you make the mistake of just saying the opposite of what America is good at: not prejudging for where you come from and accepting that good ideas do not come from only 1 nation. That yes, the US invented the modern car from the assembly line but knowing that the invention

Saying that you re the best at everything and that your Country is superior at everything is taking what makes the US that great country and pissing it away. The day a Nation starts saying that it has nothing to learn from other nations, is a sad day for that Nation. That is the reason I m saying what I am, not because I m anti American but because I m pro American and I m anti American idiocy.

The same kind of idiocy that makes neocons think you can invade a country, tell it everything what to do and still think that all people of that country will cheer for you. And yes it is true to some extend, the Kurds in North Iraq may have cheered for the Americans and a majority of them probably still do but the vast majority of the country is not cheering right now.

It also reminds me of a wise american politician saying that most politicians want to say that they are born in a shack they built themselves. It does seem to be the same mindset


And if you re able to find out the country I m from, think about why you want to know that: You want to know that so you can prejudge me? Well guess what, maybe you re not really that American and you may really not be that patriotic

The only thing I m saying is: if you really love and like your country then don't say it is the best at everything if it is not, so you can at least improve your country by the things other Nations are doing better than you
It would be like me saying I m the best at English spelling and I have nothing to learn ... you would agree saying that is studpid, no?

 

[Munin]

You can spend time in jail in Canada or Europe for some of the stuff you see on USMB everyday.. Not to mention the absolute silliness of England's ASBO (sic?) Aberrant Social Behaviour Orders where a judge can restrain a person from speaking any arbitrary word. Or the ban on wearing religious garb in France.

Yes there are some exceptions like ignoring the holocaust that you can get in jail for in a country like Germany, because that is kind of a sensitive issue there.

It is comparable to "saying the 9/11 terrorists" where heroic , something Bill Maher said in the form of a joke as a comedian and he got fired for it. So freedom of speech really is a bit subjective. Or Julien Assange for example, who the US is after for his "freedom of speech/press", would he not be put in Jail for his freedom of press/speech if he d come to the US?


Wel banning something that is forcing millions of women to give up their freedom is something I like to see as a more complicated issue. Yes if you look only at the clothing piece then it does give less liberty, but if you look at the history and culture behind that piece of clothing it really gives more liberty to more people

Or do you remember the mohammed Cartoons? That was in Europe that those cartoons were printed and I m proud of that that Europeans have that freedom of press and speech. I just wish they would have never let in those extremist moslims and just put all the extremist muslims back on a boat to their own backward country and let the normal people in like the normal muslims who are integrated in society have a normal life. And that happened in denmark, the descendants of the Vikings: you know, the people that everyone feared in the whole of Western world at the time of their existence

 

[Mr. Shaman]

American exceptionalism and the bullshit it is

I ve heard this a lot in election speeches, but one thing about the arrongance behind this idea is that it doesn't meet the reality.

Let s start:

Whoahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......

You've totally-overlooked our......

....Glory Years!!!!!!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxLDAd0LnZw]Walker (1985) - Trailer {Movie} with Ed Harris - YouTube[/ame]​

 

[editec]

American exceptionalism and the bullshit it is

Yes the USA is the only nation that is the United States of America.

Ergo America is indeed exceptional...exceptional in exactly the same way every other nation is exceptional.

 

[peach174]

hey idiot Munin....
It is "built" not "build" the Statue of Liberty!

IT IS Eiffel Tower! not "eifel tower"!
It is "ANTHEM" not "Anthom"!!
It is idiotically not "idioticly"

I am sorry for being so hard on you if English is your second language.. if not you should be ashamed to call yourself "educated"!

You know it is very simple to know if you've misspelled a word didn't you?
When you type and you see a red dotted line ............ under a word it is misspelled!

Yes, it is my 3rd language (I m from Europe). I try to improve it, ty for correcting it (I will fix it immediatly )
It does undermine the point I try to make, so if this was my first language this would be embarrassing and I think it is now too . I don't get the red lines as you get them, currently all my words are underlined (I think the spelling correction works on another language atm, I might see if I can set it on English spelling correction)

American Exceptional-ism has nothing to do with symbols.
It has to do with freedom and leading the rest of the world Governments towards liberty for individuals in their Government system.
Our Government was an experiment of being the first Republic with three branches of Government, separate from each other, with a Constitution for the people, so that we never had a King, a Dictator or a Tyrant rule over America.
You say you are from Europe.
Can a new immigrant that moves to your country with 20 dollars in their pocket make it big in your country? In America you can move here with 20.00 or even less and in 10 years or less can become rich, if that is what you want to become.
Can they fulfill their dream of becoming what they want to be in life in your country?
Can an American move to you country with 20.00 or less and become a rich person in 10 years or less if they want to do so?
That is not the only thing but many other things that make America Exceptional.

 

[peach174]

Well, I don’t think of American exceptional-ism in that way. You perceive it as our belief that Americans are exceptional, in an arrogant sense; I see it as belief in America as exceptional. Americans are not exceptional, in and of themselves, but the system and values that have shaped the country are. Here the class systems of the old world were eliminated, and in its place a meritocracy ensured that the best would rise to the top, not based upon birthright or caste, but based upon the individual’s contribution to society. The “melting pot” of diversity combined with the freedom to pursue your dreams allowed for the individual strengths of varied races and cultures to be revealed, and put to the best possible use. It has nothing to do with an individual event or success, but the accumulated advantage of free people doing their best and being allowed and even encouraged to succeed. Yes, the vast majority of us are ordinary, perhaps hard-working but unlikely to make a significant contribution to the human condition. But the system in which we operate allows for that one-in-a-million genius (or entrepreneur, or athlete, or a host of others) to find his or her way to the top, without significant barriers that would otherwise hinder or redirect them; it does not say, “You’re good in math, so you have to do xxxxx.” In many systems that person may never be given the opportunity to find out he is really particularly talented in something else, maybe something that seems unorthodox. Imagine if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs were compelled to become bankers; would the computer revolution have occurred in the same way or driven an entire world’s standard of living immeasurably higher? Perhaps, but the odds would have been greatly diminished. The end result of that system, combined with the advantage of abundant natural resources, has created the greatest country in the world to date. What you see as arrogance and self-congratulation, we see as the natural end result of a system that is designed to encourage exactly that; a system that allows exceptional people to reach the top and raise the living standards of poor schmucks like the rest of us. How could we possibly be arrogant about the people of our nation as compared to the rest of the world? We’re you; European, Middle Eastern, Asian, African, only a few generations removed. So when a German rocket scientist emigrates to the US and succeeds in putting a man on the moon, we celebrate that we live in a country that allows him to make such a contribution freely, and yes, we give credit to the system that provided the climate for that success. Also as the world emulates that system, our advantage is reduced; that doesn’t change the fact that our growth was the proximate result of those advantages.

Interesting stuff you say there, but one of the main reasons Steve Jobs and Bill Gates (also a dropout) were able to succeed was education they received even if they didn't finish it. They used the education they got and further educated themselves

About the freedom to start a business you are right, but with the education system being gutted so long in the US it s hard to believe that the US will still be that successful in the future and in the present.

It s harder to get a good education in the US than anywhere else in the world (or it is very very expensive and you need to take a loan for it), in European countries it is much cheaper to get education (students don't even need to take loans to get into higher education). The fact of the matter is that Steve Jobs might not have afforded to go to college today to learn the things he did if he lived now in the US

if you put making private profits as more important then public schools educating people, then banks will make more profits and students will have to pay more: as a result less students will be able to afford it and less students will succeed as you put a financial barrier on top of the intellectual barrier that students need to break in order to succeed.

Lots of Western European Nations have adopted almost all the civil liberties that the US has, the US is not that much different anymore compared to other civilized countries or exceptional as you might call it. Same for freedom of speech, free press, the melting pot of more different cultures, ... it s all already adopted in WEstern Europe

America is the reason you have those civil liberties.
That is what America is about, in spreading civil liberties throughout out the rest of the world and why the Western European Nations have adopted almost all of those civil liberty's.
This is what Tocqueville was talking about as American being exceptional. It was not Americans who said this, it was him.

 

[Amazed]

Well, no but what I ment was that the US public transport: and especially the trains are outdated. Japan has got 1 of the most advanced public transport systems in the world. I don't hold all of it as an example, I want to make the point that we can learn from everyone that does certain things better than us: it doesn't mean we have to copy the things they don't do better than us

And yes I agree, Japan is an interesting country both in its failures and Successes

They re better at some things than americans, not all things of course: another thing they re better at then Americans is making sophisticated and very high quality food, at making reliable cars, ...

and making pranks. I mean their pranks re just nuts compared to the dull and boring pranks that other countries make

Sniper - Japanese Prank - YouTube
Japanese Prank on the Ski Slopes - Massage Chair with a roc - YouTube

The reason why the trains are outdated is because we have so many other modes of transportation......mainly personal autos. Trains other than shipping cargo have been an economic disaster for the government. Then we have airlines that are used quite a bit.
Pranks? I guess you've never been on a snipe hunt, have you?

Trains are anything but outdated. We have been drunk on the idea of driving our cars everywhere so we let the convenience and low cost of train travel get away from us.

Travel in Europe and you see what we could have here. Travel in large US cities and enjoy the convenience and extremely low cost of Zip Cars.

"Trains other than shipping cargo have been an economic disaster" ... Actually, we do not use trains for cargo the way we should. The cost is a fraction of big tractor-trailer shipping. What would make sense would be trains to a hub and trucks from there. As it is, the trucks travel all the way across the country.

If the GObP weren't so in debt to Big Oil, we could be energy independent within ONE generation. Won't happen though. Not as long as Big Oil owns an entire political party.

Nobody is going to let people like you push us out of our cars....not gonna happen, get used to it.

 

[Munin]

You say you are from Europe.
Can a new immigrant that moves to your country with 20 dollars in their pocket make it big in your country? In America you can move here with 20.00 or even less and in 10 years or less can become rich, if that is what you want to become.
Can they fulfill their dream of becoming what they want to be in life in your country?
Can an American move to you country with 20.00 or less and become a rich person in 10 years or less if they want to do so?
That is not the only thing but many other things that make America Exceptional.

Well this might stunn you, but the current prime minister of this country is the son of a poor Italian (foreigner). And even more stunning, he s gay and he s an anoying socialist :-( ... (a real socialist with real crazy ideas, not a made up one like in the mind of so many right wingers of the USA do in their fantasy world when they have a nightmare about a center ideological democrat).

If a gay poor guy that is the son of a foreigner can make it in this country, I find it hard to think that anyone else should not be able to make it.

Fortunatly/Unfortunatly you can come to my country with 0 $ and become rich

America is the reason you have those civil liberties.
That is what America is about, in spreading civil liberties throughout out the rest of the world and why the Western European Nations have adopted almost all of those civil liberty's.
This is what Tocqueville was talking about as American being exceptional. It was not Americans who said this, it was him.

Well it depends, if the French revolution was a direct result of American Influence then yes. It was the French revolution that gave those civil liberties. If I remember correctly, it was Napoleon who had spread those civil liberties around Europe when he had conquered all of it

 

[Munin]

Trains are anything but outdated. We have been drunk on the idea of driving our cars everywhere so we let the convenience and low cost of train travel get away from us.

Travel in Europe and you see what we could have here. Travel in large US cities and enjoy the convenience and extremely low cost of Zip Cars.

"Trains other than shipping cargo have been an economic disaster" ... Actually, we do not use trains for cargo the way we should. The cost is a fraction of big tractor-trailer shipping. What would make sense would be trains to a hub and trucks from there. As it is, the trucks travel all the way across the country.

If the GObP weren't so in debt to Big Oil, we could be energy independent within ONE generation. Won't happen though. Not as long as Big Oil owns an entire political party.

Nobody is going to let people like you push us out of our cars....not gonna happen, get used to it.

Well that s not the point, trains are a separate means of transportation. You do not have to choose between only having a car and using it or only having a train. I prefer the car over the train too, but the train can be efficient too though: the high speed trains for example

 

[9thIDdoc]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHAFmFsb9XM]Merle Haggard -- The Fightin' Side Of Me - YouTube[/ame]

 

[peach174]

Napoleon was a dictator.
As far as political and civil liberties were concerned, Napoleon largely suppressed them with strict censorship and the establishment of a virtual police state in order to protect his power.