American exceptionalism and the bullshit it is

[emptystep]

"American exceptionalism" is a phrase the Republican party has adopted and I agree that it sounds arrogant. The Democrats say America is the greatest but I, and I believe we, don't mean it in an arrogant way.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Japan is going broke, in part, due to their Health Care system. They also have a Debt to GDP ratio of about 220%. Ours is about 110%.

So you can't really hold them up as an example just because they have nice trains. (which had to be privatized in the 90's because the Gov't couldn't afford to run them)

I could go on and on about Japan.

Well, no but what I ment was that the US public transport: and especially the trains are outdated. Japan has got 1 of the most advanced public transport systems in the world. I don't hold all of it as an example, I want to make the point that we can learn from everyone that does certain things better than us: it doesn't mean we have to copy the things they don't do better than us

And yes I agree, Japan is an interesting country both in its failures and Successes

They re better at some things than americans, not all things of course: another thing they re better at then Americans is making sophisticated and very high quality food, at making reliable cars, ...

and making pranks. I mean their pranks re just nuts compared to the dull and boring pranks that other countries make

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74DCfV5fYr0]Sniper - Japanese Prank - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbkpQcZhrcE]Japanese Prank on the Ski Slopes - Massage Chair with a roc - YouTube[/ame]

The reason why the trains are outdated is because we have so many other modes of transportation......mainly personal autos. Trains other than shipping cargo have been an economic disaster for the government. Then we have airlines that are used quite a bit.
Pranks? I guess you've never been on a snipe hunt, have you?

Trains are anything but outdated. We have been drunk on the idea of driving our cars everywhere so we let the convenience and low cost of train travel get away from us.

Travel in Europe and you see what we could have here. Travel in large US cities and enjoy the convenience and extremely low cost of Zip Cars.

"Trains other than shipping cargo have been an economic disaster" ... Actually, we do not use trains for cargo the way we should. The cost is a fraction of big tractor-trailer shipping. What would make sense would be trains to a hub and trucks from there. As it is, the trucks travel all the way across the country.

If the GObP weren't so in debt to Big Oil, we could be energy independent within ONE generation. Won't happen though. Not as long as Big Oil owns an entire political party.

 

[Munin]

I ve heard this a lot in election speeches, but one thing about the arrongance behind this idea is that it doesn't meet the reality.

Let s start:

The symbol of America: The man who built the statue of Liberty was a Frenchman (the same man who build the eiffel tower)

Another symbol of America: the American National Anthem is a story about Fort McHenry and Americans in there surviving a huge naval bombardment that would ve annahilated them with the big US Flag if it wasn't for the French Engineering that had been used to build it.

The first American on the moon: One of the biggest triumphs of US history is the one of the Nation that put the first man on the moon. The fact of the matter is that it was German technology that made it work and Nazi-German scientists that were key to making it work: the truth is that German efficiency got American astronauts on the moon. Wernher von Braun: Rocket Man for War and Peace - Part 1.1 - YouTube


The idea that Americans have nothing to learn from others because Americans are the best in everything is just idiotically stupid, as some of the Biggest American Accomplishments where enabled by non-Americans (including the US independence that was enabled by the French Fleet helping the Americans during the war of independence)

Wha Wha WHa....if you hate America so much, move to france.

Why France? I think Iraq, Afghanistan are much more populair places for anti-American People (except for North Iraq, with Kurdistan being a successtory of the US occupation). Why would I want to be in the country that helped create America if I was anti American? Without France the US would not exist, the Frenchies are helping the America win its war in Afghanistan btw: their elite troops are fighting there and dying side by side with Americans. And that is what anti-American people do? They send their troops to fight and die helping American troops in Afghanistan

Oh yes I get the cliché, they re no good cheese eating surrender monkeys that don't have the stomach to fight right? All the sudden forgetting that France is a nation that exists from 50 years before the birth of Christ (more than 2000 years) and its military got the Nation France to survive hundreds of wars, they earn a little bit more respect if you ask me and I m not even pro French .


I m not anti American, I m anti arrogant-dickhead. Which happens to be a big number of Republican American Politicians are, still thinking in their fary tale world that people will cheer for them everywhere in the world because they re so exceptional ...

give me a f break

 

[BillyV]

I ve heard this a lot in election speeches, but one thing about the arrongance behind this idea is that it doesn't meet the reality.

Let s start:

The symbol of America: The man who built the statue of Liberty was a Frenchman (the same man who build the eiffel tower)

Another symbol of America: the American National Anthem is a story about Fort McHenry and Americans in there surviving a huge naval bombardment that would ve annahilated them with the big US Flag if it wasn't for the French Engineering that had been used to build it.

The first American on the moon: One of the biggest triumphs of US history is the one of the Nation that put the first man on the moon. The fact of the matter is that it was German technology that made it work and Nazi-German scientists that were key to making it work: the truth is that German efficiency got American astronauts on the moon.

The idea that Americans have nothing to learn from others because Americans are the best in everything is just idiotically stupid, as some of the Biggest American Accomplishments where enabled by non-Americans (including the US independence that was enabled by the French Fleet helping the Americans during the war of independence)

Wha Wha WHa....if you hate America so much, move to france.

Why France? I think Iraq, Afghanistan are much more populair places for anti-American People (except for North Iraq, with Kurdistan being a successtory of the US occupation). Why would I want to be in the country that helped create America if I was anti American? Without France the US would not exist, the Frenchies are helping the America win its war in Afghanistan btw: their elite troops are fighting there and dying side by side with Americans. And that is what anti-American people do? They send their troops to fight and die helping American troops in Afghanistan

Oh yes I get the cliché, they re no good cheese eating surrender monkeys that don't have the stomach to fight right? All the sudden forgetting that France is a nation that exists from 50 years before the birth of Christ (more than 2000 years) and its military got the Nation France to survive hundreds of wars, they earn a little bit more respect if you ask me and I m not even pro French .

I m not anti American, I m anti arrogant-dickhead. Which happens to be a big number of Republican American Politicians are, still thinking in their fary tale world that people will cheer for them everywhere in the world because they re so exceptional ...

give me a f break

Well, I don’t think of American exceptionalism in that way. You perceive it as our belief that Americans are exceptional, in an arrogant sense; I see it as belief in America as exceptional. Americans are not exceptional, in and of themselves, but the system and values that have shaped the country are. Here the class systems of the old world were eliminated, and in its place a meritocracy ensured that the best would rise to the top, not based upon birthright or caste, but based upon the individual’s contribution to society. The “melting pot” of diversity combined with the freedom to pursue your dreams allowed for the individual strengths of varied races and cultures to be revealed, and put to the best possible use. It has nothing to do with an individual event or success, but the accumulated advantage of free people doing their best and being allowed and even encouraged to succeed. Yes, the vast majority of us are ordinary, perhaps hard-working but unlikely to make a significant contribution to the human condition. But the system in which we operate allows for that one-in-a-million genius (or entrepreneur, or athlete, or a host of others) to find his or her way to the top, without significant barriers that would otherwise hinder or redirect them; it does not say, “You’re good in math, so you have to do xxxxx.” In many systems that person may never be given the opportunity to find out he is really particularly talented in something else, maybe something that seems unorthodox. Imagine if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs were compelled to become bankers; would the computer revolution have occurred in the same way or driven an entire world’s standard of living immeasurably higher? Perhaps, but the odds would have been greatly diminished. The end result of that system, combined with the advantage of abundant natural resources, has created the greatest country in the world to date. What you see as arrogance and self-congratulation, we see as the natural end result of a system that is designed to encourage exactly that; a system that allows exceptional people to reach the top and raise the living standards of poor schmucks like the rest of us. How could we possibly be arrogant about the people of our nation as compared to the rest of the world? We’re you; European, Middle Eastern, Asian, African, only a few generations removed. So when a German rocket scientist emigrates to the US and succeeds in putting a man on the moon, we celebrate that we live in a country that allows him to make such a contribution freely, and yes, we give credit to the system that provided the climate for that success. Also as the world emulates that system, our advantage is reduced; that doesn’t change the fact that our growth was the proximate result of those advantages.

 

[Munin]

Well, I don’t think of American exceptionalism in that way. You perceive it as our belief that Americans are exceptional, in an arrogant sense; I see it as belief in America as exceptional. Americans are not exceptional, in and of themselves, but the system and values that have shaped the country are. Here the class systems of the old world were eliminated, and in its place a meritocracy ensured that the best would rise to the top, not based upon birthright or caste, but based upon the individual’s contribution to society. The “melting pot” of diversity combined with the freedom to pursue your dreams allowed for the individual strengths of varied races and cultures to be revealed, and put to the best possible use. It has nothing to do with an individual event or success, but the accumulated advantage of free people doing their best and being allowed and even encouraged to succeed. Yes, the vast majority of us are ordinary, perhaps hard-working but unlikely to make a significant contribution to the human condition. But the system in which we operate allows for that one-in-a-million genius (or entrepreneur, or athlete, or a host of others) to find his or her way to the top, without significant barriers that would otherwise hinder or redirect them; it does not say, “You’re good in math, so you have to do xxxxx.” In many systems that person may never be given the opportunity to find out he is really particularly talented in something else, maybe something that seems unorthodox. Imagine if Bill Gates or Steve Jobs were compelled to become bankers; would the computer revolution have occurred in the same way or driven an entire world’s standard of living immeasurably higher? Perhaps, but the odds would have been greatly diminished. The end result of that system, combined with the advantage of abundant natural resources, has created the greatest country in the world to date. What you see as arrogance and self-congratulation, we see as the natural end result of a system that is designed to encourage exactly that; a system that allows exceptional people to reach the top and raise the living standards of poor schmucks like the rest of us. How could we possibly be arrogant about the people of our nation as compared to the rest of the world? We’re you; European, Middle Eastern, Asian, African, only a few generations removed. So when a German rocket scientist emigrates to the US and succeeds in putting a man on the moon, we celebrate that we live in a country that allows him to make such a contribution freely, and yes, we give credit to the system that provided the climate for that success. Also as the world emulates that system, our advantage is reduced; that doesn’t change the fact that our growth was the proximate result of those advantages.

Interesting stuff you say there, but one of the main reasons Steve Jobs and Bill Gates (also a dropout) were able to succeed was education they received even if they didn't finish it. They used the education they got and further educated themselves

About the freedom to start a business you are right, but with the education system being gutted so long in the US it s hard to believe that the US will still be that successful in the future and in the present.

It s harder to get a good education in the US than anywhere else in the world (or it is very very expensive and you need to take a loan for it), in European countries it is much cheaper to get education (students don't even need to take loans to get into higher education). The fact of the matter is that Steve Jobs might not have afforded to go to college today to learn the things he did if he lived now in the US

if you put making private profits as more important then public schools educating people, then banks will make more profits and students will have to pay more: as a result less students will be able to afford it and less students will succeed as you put a financial barrier on top of the intellectual barrier that students need to break in order to succeed.

Lots of Western European Nations have adopted almost all the civil liberties that the US has, the US is not that much different anymore compared to other civilized countries or exceptional as you might call it. Same for freedom of speech, free press, the melting pot of more different cultures, ... it s all already adopted in WEstern Europe

 

[Sunni Man]

America is not Europe.

And I don't give a rat's a$$ about Europe and how they do things there.

We are better than them; and will always be better.

 

[BillyV]

Interesting stuff you say there, but one of the main reasons Steve Jobs and Bill Gates (also a dropout) were able to succeed was education they received even if they didn't finish it. They used the education they got and further educated themselves

I doubt whether either of them learned how to revolutionize the computer industry from their short time at Harvard.

About the freedom to start a business you are right, but with the education system being gutted so long in the US it s hard to believe that the US will still be that ssuccessful in the future and in the present.
It s harder to get an education in the US than anywhere else in the world, in European countries it is much cheaper to get education. The fact of the matter is that Steve Jobs might not have afforded to go to college today to learn the things he did if he lived now

if you put making private profits as more important then public schools educating people, then banks will make more profits and students will have to pay more: as a result less students will be able to afford it and less students will succeed as you put a financial barrier on top of the intellectual barrier that students need to break in order to succeed.

The education system in the US has not been "gutted", even though it does have its problems. And I disagree; it's very easy to get an education in the US. Almost anyone who wishes to go to college and is otherwise qualified based on prior success and aptitude has the opportunity; student loans couldn't be more prevalent. As far as "affording" it, you are investing in a future of greatly enhanced earning power; why should you not pay for that investment? We make it very easy to make that choice; it's unfortunate that some believe that, once you have taken advantage of that opportunity, someone else should be responsible for the bill. As for banks making profits, they are certainly entitled to a fair return for allowing you the use of their money (which is, of course, our money).

Lots of Western European Nations have adopted almost all the civil liberties that the US has, the US is not that much different anymore or exceptional as you might call it. Same for freedom of speech, free press, ... it s all already adopted in WEstern Europe

As I said, "Also as the world emulates that system, our advantage is reduced; that doesn’t change the fact that our growth was the proximate result of those advantages."

 

[IGetItAlready]

I ve heard this a lot in election speeches, but one thing about the arrongance behind this idea is that it doesn't meet the reality.

Let s start:

The symbol of America: The man who built the statue of Liberty was a Frenchman (the same man who build the eiffel tower)

Another symbol of America: the American National Anthem is a story about Fort McHenry and Americans in there surviving a huge naval bombardment that would ve annahilated them with the big US Flag if it wasn't for the French Engineering that had been used to build it.

The first American on the moon: One of the biggest triumphs of US history is the one of the Nation that put the first man on the moon. The fact of the matter is that it was German technology that made it work and Nazi-German scientists that were key to making it work: the truth is that German efficiency got American astronauts on the moon. Wernher von Braun: Rocket Man for War and Peace - Part 1.1 - YouTube


The idea that Americans have nothing to learn from others because Americans are the best in everything is just idiotically stupid, as some of the Biggest American Accomplishments where enabled by non-Americans (including the US independence that was enabled by the French Fleet helping the Americans during the war of independence)

American isn't a race oh brilliant one. And I'd go one step further and claim that America isn't even a geographical region on a map or globe. The anti American sentiment which is wide spread in some foreign nations and which you illustrate our media has been at least marginally successful at importing isn't your run of the mill "racism" or a hatred of the American people. It's more about a resentment toward our way of life which btw, you can change in a heartbeat by simply jumping on a plane and never returning.
At the same time, America is an idea that many from all around the earth have bought into. No one is saying Americans have "nothing to learn from others", it's just that our ideas about personal freedom and liberty have a propensity for drawing pioneers of all sorts.
I get that this was intended to be some pissy little America bashing thread but don't you think you might first want to understand what America is before trying to tear her down?

 

[Unkotare]

I ve heard this a lot in election speeches, but one thing about the arrongance behind this idea is that it doesn't meet the reality.

Let s start:

The symbol of America: The man who built the statue of Liberty was a Frenchman (the same man who build the eiffel tower)

Another symbol of America: the American National Anthem is a story about Fort McHenry and Americans in there surviving a huge naval bombardment that would ve annahilated them with the big US Flag if it wasn't for the French Engineering that had been used to build it.

The first American on the moon: One of the biggest triumphs of US history is the one of the Nation that put the first man on the moon. The fact of the matter is that it was German technology that made it work and Nazi-German scientists that were key to making it work: the truth is that German efficiency got American astronauts on the moon. The idea that Americans have nothing to learn from others because Americans are the best in everything is just idiotically stupid, as some of the Biggest American Accomplishments where enabled by non-Americans (including the US independence that was enabled by the French Fleet helping the Americans during the war of independence)

You are making the case for the exact opposite of the premise of your thread and you apparently don't even realize it.

 

[Unkotare]

It s harder to get a good education in the US than anywhere else in the world

You fail to prove this ridiculous claim.

 

[Unkotare]

Same for freedom of speech, free press, the melting pot of more different cultures, ... it s all already adopted in WEstern Europe

You might want to look into that one a little more closely, Euro-phile.

 

[Charles_Main]

I ve heard this a lot in election speeches, but one thing about the arrongance behind this idea is that it doesn't meet the reality.

Let s start:

The symbol of America: The man who built the statue of Liberty was a Frenchman (the same man who build the eiffel tower)

Another symbol of America: the American National Anthem is a story about Fort McHenry and Americans in there surviving a huge naval bombardment that would ve annahilated them with the big US Flag if it wasn't for the French Engineering that had been used to build it.

The first American on the moon: One of the biggest triumphs of US history is the one of the Nation that put the first man on the moon. The fact of the matter is that it was German technology that made it work and Nazi-German scientists that were key to making it work: the truth is that German efficiency got American astronauts on the moon. Wernher von Braun: Rocket Man for War and Peace - Part 1.1 - YouTube


The idea that Americans have nothing to learn from others because Americans are the best in everything is just idiotically stupid, as some of the Biggest American Accomplishments where enabled by non-Americans (including the US independence that was enabled by the French Fleet helping the Americans during the war of independence)

Another product of a failed Socialist Educations system Dominated by Unions.

Woo Hoo

 

[bripat9643]

I ve heard this a lot in election speeches, but one thing about the arrongance behind this idea is that it doesn't meet the reality.

Let s start:

The symbol of America: The man who built the statue of Liberty was a Frenchman (the same man who build the eiffel tower)

Another symbol of America: the American National Anthem is a story about Fort McHenry and Americans in there surviving a huge naval bombardment that would ve annahilated them with the big US Flag if it wasn't for the French Engineering that had been used to build it.

The first American on the moon: One of the biggest triumphs of US history is the one of the Nation that put the first man on the moon. The fact of the matter is that it was German technology that made it work and Nazi-German scientists that were key to making it work: the truth is that German efficiency got American astronauts on the moon.


The idea that Americans have nothing to learn from others because Americans are the best in everything is just idiotically stupid, as some of the Biggest American Accomplishments where enabled by non-Americans (including the US independence that was enabled by the French Fleet helping the Americans during the war of independence)

You're exceptionally stupid.

 

[Obamanation]

This thread is a perfect example of the President's beliefs rubbing off on his constituants.

Signed,

A Proud American!!!!

 

[Bf109G]

Munin is an exceptional idiot.

I m glad I stand out from all the other idiots here on the forums then and you don't confuse me with fe the tea baggers


Let s thank them again

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK0LePblRAg]Bill Maher Thanks Teabaggers and Sarah Palin(TOO FUNNY) - YouTube[/ame]

Interesting...your idea of "culture" is a cartoon show in your sig line and you use a "celebrity" "comedian" as a "reference" in your post.

Step away from the television.The things you see there are not real. Their purpose is to distract and deceive people who can't think for themselves.
Read and study and form some opinions on your own.

 

[Munin]

I can"t believe how many posts there are in 1 thread without decent arguments ...

You want to think you re n° 1 at everything, well fine do that.

American isn't a race oh brilliant one. And I'd go one step further and claim that America isn't even a geographical region on a map or globe. The anti American sentiment which is wide spread in some foreign nations and which you illustrate our media has been at least marginally successful at importing isn't your run of the mill "racism" or a hatred of the American people. It's more about a resentment toward our way of life which btw, you can change in a heartbeat by simply jumping on a plane and never returning.
At the same time, America is an idea that many from all around the earth have bought into. No one is saying Americans have "nothing to learn from others", it's just that our ideas about personal freedom and liberty have a propensity for drawing pioneers of all sorts.
I get that this was intended to be some pissy little America bashing thread but don't you think you might first want to understand what America is before trying to tear her down?

I m not tearing down Americans, the thing is that Americans can do great things as I already said. But you have to admit that besides great things there are things that Americans can do better, I gave a big number of examples. And if you are a republican or a right winger then you should be able to acknowledge that Germany is better at managing its debt then the US.

But saying that you re the best at everything while you are not (as a person or as a country). This is what you hear a lot from right wing people, something like this

the United States is like the biblical "shining city on a hill," and exempt from historical forces that have affected other countries.

well that s the wikipedia version of the story of how neocons see it now


Having a lot of young people being broke before they even start their lives is not what will make a country great, it s what will kill your economy. I can agree that greed can be good, but in the US the greed to get money out of everything is disgusting in certain cases like healthcare: make profits at the cost of human lives?

If you have to choose between the system that makes more profits or more healthy people, do you choose for profits?

If you have to choose between the system that makes more profits or more good educated people, do you choose for profits?


Yes making more profits in a company that sells chairs/cars/... is good, even with the public transportation it can be good but making profits at the cost of a lot of people getting unhealthy/dead or a lot of peole being not able to educate themselves?

Interesting stuff you say there, but one of the main reasons Steve Jobs and Bill Gates (also a dropout) were able to succeed was education they received even if they didn't finish it. They used the education they got and further educated themselves

I doubt whether either of them learned how to revolutionize the computer industry from their short time at Harvard.

I was quite surprised by this myself, but it turns out 1 of them at least learned a big part of it in School. He took what he learned calligraphy and put it in the software and it is one of the things that revolutionized the industry


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA]Steve Jobs Stanford Commencement Speech 2005 - YouTube[/ame]

It shows how crucial education is even if you do not graduate from it, without his education and the education that his friend and engineer Steve Wozniak had Apple may never have existed.

To exclude a hughe ammount of people from education because you want some people to make a buck from it is the same as excluding the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates a crucial element that will make him/her succesfull

Another product of a failed Socialist Educations system Dominated by Unions.

Woo Hoo

Maybe I was wrong about exceptionalism: some Americans here really are exceptionally good at being a dick. No wonder it was the first name of the previous neocon right win vice president, you neocon right wingers really like dicks it seems

 

[Unkotare]

I can"t believe how many posts there are in 1 thread without decent arguments ...

You want to think you re n° 1 at everything, well fine do that.

Where did you say you're from again?

 

[Unkotare]

To exclude a hughe ammount of people from education because you want some people to make a buck from it is the same as excluding the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates a crucial element that will make him/her succesfull

LOL. I suppose the irony of the first part of that is lost on you. In any case, who exactly is being "excluded"?

Also, you seem to completely misunderstand what has made American higher education the best in the world.

 

[Unkotare]

Having a lot of young people being broke before they even start their lives is not what will make a country great, it s what will kill your economy.

I guess you are opposed to anyone buying a house or a car unless they have a big sack o cash to pay for them all at once, huh? Why do you hate everyone but the very wealthy?

 

[Meister]

Well, no but what I ment was that the US public transport: and especially the trains are outdated. Japan has got 1 of the most advanced public transport systems in the world. I don't hold all of it as an example, I want to make the point that we can learn from everyone that does certain things better than us: it doesn't mean we have to copy the things they don't do better than us

And yes I agree, Japan is an interesting country both in its failures and Successes

They re better at some things than americans, not all things of course: another thing they re better at then Americans is making sophisticated and very high quality food, at making reliable cars, ...

and making pranks. I mean their pranks re just nuts compared to the dull and boring pranks that other countries make

Sniper - Japanese Prank - YouTube
Japanese Prank on the Ski Slopes - Massage Chair with a roc - YouTube

The reason why the trains are outdated is because we have so many other modes of transportation......mainly personal autos. Trains other than shipping cargo have been an economic disaster for the government. Then we have airlines that are used quite a bit.
Pranks? I guess you've never been on a snipe hunt, have you?

Trains are anything but outdated. We have been drunk on the idea of driving our cars everywhere so we let the convenience and low cost of train travel get away from us.

Travel in Europe and you see what we could have here. Travel in large US cities and enjoy the convenience and extremely low cost of Zip Cars.

"Trains other than shipping cargo have been an economic disaster" ... Actually, we do not use trains for cargo the way we should. The cost is a fraction of big tractor-trailer shipping. What would make sense would be trains to a hub and trucks from there. As it is, the trucks travel all the way across the country.

If the GObP weren't so in debt to Big Oil, we could be energy independent within ONE generation. Won't happen though. Not as long as Big Oil owns an entire political party.

You be the first to get rid of your friggin' car you hypocritical hack.
Our rail system is not extensive enough to replace the auto...sheesh.
Amtrack is and has been losing money since the start.