Allen West on Marines Incident: 'Shut Your Mouth, War Is Hell'

[vmsmth]

I think everyone can agree that they shouldn't have done it. Filming it just exacerbated the problem because that's what allowed it to become an international incident. People can recommend all they want, but ultimately the military will decide what to do with these knuckleheads. It's unfortunate that someone didn't take responsibility at the scene and tell them to stop.

Having said that I think that one of the points that Congressman West (he's a congressman now, not a Lt Col) was making is that it's difficult for people who have not felt what it's like to be in combat to understand what these young Marines probably were feeling that led to them doing what they did. I think everyone can agree that they are young and stupid. College kids (same age group) also engage in stupid disgusting behavior... it just doesn't create international incidents normally!

He's not excusing their behavior. He does say they were wrong. He can recommend all he wants for what the punishment should be and it carrys no more weight than if you or I made a recommendation.

I think a point that most seem to miss is that there is outrage amongst our people when our military engages in this type of behavior, but there is NO outrage amongst muslims when they do much worse to our people. It doesn't make what happened okay, but it does explain the rage that some people feel. Unlike the average American here in the states these guys were able to act on that anger. Again it doesn't make it right, it's just to bad that older and wiser heads weren't around to put a stop to it.

 

[bodecea]

Those deeds were not wiped out by stupidity in the minds of the people who were helped. In the minds of people who think we are evil all the good deeds in the world would not make a difference.

Sorry, but it does wiped those good deeds out....in the minds of the people we are supposed to be HELPING and SHOWING that their old tribal ways are wrong.


Pissing on bodies seems as barbarian as the Taliban....yes I know war is hell, I've seen private pics from Nam....but they were kept PRIVATE.

Really? Are you telling me that when you think of the military your first thought is how a few bad apples make everyone bad? Not just look bad, but actually rotten? I doubt that, I think you are smart enough to know they are the exception, and that the vast majority of the troops are more likely to hand out candy to kids than they are to piss on dead bodies.

I also think most of the world is the same way. I think they are more likely to remember that the Navy is the first to arrive after a major hurricane or earthquake than they are something like this picture. I guess I have more faith in people than you do.

I am not excusing anyone who does something bad, I am just able to keep it in perspective, and I know it is much less likely to happen if I expect the best of people than if I expect the worst. One good deed carries a lot more weight than you think it does. Just because the news doesn't talk about the good things does not mean that people do not know about them, or remember them. You should try believing in the good of people instead of the bad, I bet you life will be a lot better.

The nature of PR, Sweetheart. And Human Nature.

 

[bodecea]

Yanno.......Bodecea speaks the truth when she stated that "1,000 attaboys can be wiped out by 1 aw shit".

Factor in the fact that this is an international aw shit.......well........think about it..........what do people remember first, the things that you did well, or the things that you totally fucked up by showing your ass?

I'll give you a hint...........it's the latter.

Go ahead.........ask me how I know........it's a tawdry story of where I personally fucked up and came back.

She is wrong, just like you are. When you were in the Navy how many people came up to you and told you how a sailor or Marine helped their family at some point? How many came up told you a bad memory?

Both...and the bad aways stands out faster and longer. We may not like it, but it is Human Nature.....if it weren't, our newspapers, network news and even internet news wouldn't be 90% bad news.

You know this, I know this, everyone knows this....so it's silly for you to even attempt to deny it.....just makes you look foolish.

 

[9thIDdoc]

In a land where disrespect for enemy bodies is the norm rather than the exception why believe this will recieve much notice?

 

[bodecea]

In a land where disrespect for enemy bodies is the norm rather than the exception why believe this will recieve much notice?

Because they are LOOKING for ways to make us out to be the bad guys.....why help them?

 

[Zoom]

Its so simple really. We are Americans. Our marines are better than the enemy and what they did was wrong. They will pay the price for not being honorable marines.

Period. End of story.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

Can someone please explain to me why we should be more outraged at the actions of our enemies than the actions of our own?

 

[9thIDdoc]

“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

Can someone please explain to me why we should be more outraged at the actions of our enemies than the actions of our own?

I think it highly likely that our boys would not have done anything disrespectful to those bodies had there not been a long and nasty history of atrocities commited by the enemy. Turn about is fair play and payback is a MOFO

 

[ABikerSailor]

Yanno.......Bodecea speaks the truth when she stated that "1,000 attaboys can be wiped out by 1 aw shit".

Factor in the fact that this is an international aw shit.......well........think about it..........what do people remember first, the things that you did well, or the things that you totally fucked up by showing your ass?

I'll give you a hint...........it's the latter.

Go ahead.........ask me how I know........it's a tawdry story of where I personally fucked up and came back.

She is wrong, just like you are. When you were in the Navy how many people came up to you and told you how a sailor or Marine helped their family at some point? How many came up told you a bad memory?

Depends on the country I was visiting and what their view of America was. In places where there were lots of Brits around, I generally never paid for drinks, because they were happy about what we'd done in WWII for them, and really liked Yanks.

However..........in other places like Italy or Greece or places in the ME, I wouldn't hear so much about the things that the military did right, I'd get asked by locals why our country was doing the things it was doing. Matter of fact, under Reagan and Bush Sr. I was a bit nervous walking around, because under Reagan USO's were getting bombed, and under Bush Sr., not many people overseas liked him.

Yeah..........the bad things about the country generally reflect back on us a LOT faster than the good that we've done, and this incident will reverberate for a while, even after the people here in the US have let it pass by.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Can someone please explain to me why we should be more outraged at the actions of our enemies than the actions of our own?

I think it highly likely that our boys would not have done anything disrespectful to those bodies had there not been a long and nasty history of atrocities commited by the enemy.

Really? If the Taliban had killed 1000 of their best friends and family but did it in accordance with the laws of war, you're telling me those very same soldiers would not have pissed on their corpses? I find that laughable!

Turn about is fair play and payback is a MOFO

Extra-judicial "turn about" may be "fair play" in a terrorist or rogue state but it isn't in the United States.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Can someone please explain to me why we should be more outraged at the actions of our enemies than the actions of our own?

I think it highly likely that our boys would not have done anything disrespectful to those bodies had there not been a long and nasty history of atrocities commited by the enemy. Turn about is fair play and payback is a MOFO

So.........going against the Geneva Conventions as well as violating the Standards of Conduct for the U.S. Military (annual 2-3 day briefings were part of my 20 year career), simply because the enemy does it?

Some fucked up logic you got there.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Can someone please explain to me why we should be more outraged at the actions of our enemies than the actions of our own?

I think it highly likely that our boys would not have done anything disrespectful to those bodies had there not been a long and nasty history of atrocities commited by the enemy. Turn about is fair play and payback is a MOFO

So.........going against the Geneva Conventions as well as violating the Standards of Conduct for the U.S. Military (annual 2-3 day briefings were part of my 20 year career), simply because the enemy does it?

Some fucked up logic you got there.

Is this really a war crime? I thought it was just a violation of conduct rules. Can war crimes be committed against the dead?

 

[SFC Ollie]

I think it highly likely that our boys would not have done anything disrespectful to those bodies had there not been a long and nasty history of atrocities commited by the enemy. Turn about is fair play and payback is a MOFO

So.........going against the Geneva Conventions as well as violating the Standards of Conduct for the U.S. Military (annual 2-3 day briefings were part of my 20 year career), simply because the enemy does it?

Some fucked up logic you got there.

Is this really a war crime? I thought it was just a violation of conduct rules. Can war crimes be committed against the dead?

It can be turned into a war crime by things like the press. But should never have gotten past the company commander.

BTW Geneva convention annual classes are normally a one to 2 hour class......If they were 2 or 3 days we would all be scholars...........

 

[ABikerSailor]

So.........going against the Geneva Conventions as well as violating the Standards of Conduct for the U.S. Military (annual 2-3 day briefings were part of my 20 year career), simply because the enemy does it?

Some fucked up logic you got there.

Is this really a war crime? I thought it was just a violation of conduct rules. Can war crimes be committed against the dead?

It can be turned into a war crime by things like the press. But should never have gotten past the company commander.

BTW Geneva convention annual classes are normally a one to 2 hour class......If they were 2 or 3 days we would all be scholars...........

The entire Code of Conduct briefings (of which the Conventions were included) for the Navy was around 3-4 hours over a 2-3 day period.

We also covered rights as a military member to attend protests, how we are to conduct ourselves in public both on and off base, as well as leadership and other things.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Can someone please explain to me why we should be more outraged at the actions of our enemies than the actions of our own?

I think it highly likely that our boys would not have done anything disrespectful to those bodies had there not been a long and nasty history of atrocities commited by the enemy. Turn about is fair play and payback is a MOFO

So.........going against the Geneva Conventions as well as violating the Standards of Conduct for the U.S. Military (annual 2-3 day briefings were part of my 20 year career), simply because the enemy does it?

Some fucked up logic you got there.

Maybe you should have paid closer attention. We are not fighting any enemy that signed the Geneva Conventions or makes any pretense of abiding by it. That absolves us of any prior commitment to do so. The actual Conventions are not terrorist friendly in any case.
Unfortunately some parts have found their way into the UCMJ and those we are required to abide by. A one-sided international agreement is NOT an agreement at all.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I think it highly likely that our boys would not have done anything disrespectful to those bodies had there not been a long and nasty history of atrocities commited by the enemy. Turn about is fair play and payback is a MOFO

So.........going against the Geneva Conventions as well as violating the Standards of Conduct for the U.S. Military (annual 2-3 day briefings were part of my 20 year career), simply because the enemy does it?

Some fucked up logic you got there.

Maybe you should have paid closer attention. We are not fighting any enemy that signed the Geneva Conventions or makes any pretense of abiding by it. That absolves us of any prior commitment to do so. The actual Conventions are not terrorist friendly in any case.
Unfortunately some parts have found their way into the UCMJ and those we are required to abide by. A one-sided international agreement is NOT an agreement at all.

Application

The Geneva Conventions apply at times of war and armed conflict to governments who have ratified its terms. The details of applicability are spelled out in Common Articles 2 and 3. The topic of applicability has generated some controversy. When the Geneva Conventions apply, governments have surrendered some of their national sovereignty by signing these treaties.

[edit] Common Article 2 relating to International Armed Conflicts

This article states that the Geneva Conventions apply to all cases of international conflict, where at least one of the warring nations have ratified the Conventions. Primarily:
The Conventions apply to all cases of declared war between signatory nations. This is the original sense of applicability, which predates the 1949 version.
The Conventions apply to all cases of armed conflict between two or more signatory nations, even in the absence of a declaration of war. This language was added in 1949 to accommodate situations that have all the characteristics of war without the existence of a formal declaration of war, such as a police action.[10]
The Conventions apply to a signatory nation even if the opposing nation is not a signatory, but only if the opposing nation "accepts and applies the provisions" of the Conventions.[10]

Article 1 of Protocol I further clarifies that armed conflict against colonial domination and foreign occupation also qualifies as an international conflict.

When the criteria of international conflict have been met, the full protections of the Conventions are considered to apply.

[edit] Common Article 3 relating to Non-International Armed Conflict

This article states that the certain minimum rules of war apply to armed conflicts that are not of an international character, but that are contained within the boundaries of a single country. The applicability of this article rests on the interpretation of the term armed conflict.[10] For example it would apply to conflicts between the Government and rebel forces, or between two rebel forces, or to other conflicts that have all the characteristics of war but that are carried out within the confines of a single country. A handful of individuals attacking a police station would not be considered an armed conflict subject to this article, but only subject to the laws of the country in question.[10]

The other Geneva Conventions are not applicable in this situation but only the provisions contained within Article 3,[10] and additionally within the language of Protocol II. The rationale for the limitation is to avoid conflict with the rights of Sovereign States that were not part of the treaties. When the provisions of this article apply, it states that:[11]
Persons taking no active part in hostilities, including military persons who have ceased to be active as a result of sickness, injury, or detention, should be treated humanely and that the following acts are prohibited: violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
taking of hostages;
outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment; and
the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

Geneva Conventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They still apply, even if the Taliban didn't sign them. Read the bolded part.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Sorry, but it does wiped those good deeds out....in the minds of the people we are supposed to be HELPING and SHOWING that their old tribal ways are wrong.


Pissing on bodies seems as barbarian as the Taliban....yes I know war is hell, I've seen private pics from Nam....but they were kept PRIVATE.

Really? Are you telling me that when you think of the military your first thought is how a few bad apples make everyone bad? Not just look bad, but actually rotten? I doubt that, I think you are smart enough to know they are the exception, and that the vast majority of the troops are more likely to hand out candy to kids than they are to piss on dead bodies.

I also think most of the world is the same way. I think they are more likely to remember that the Navy is the first to arrive after a major hurricane or earthquake than they are something like this picture. I guess I have more faith in people than you do.

I am not excusing anyone who does something bad, I am just able to keep it in perspective, and I know it is much less likely to happen if I expect the best of people than if I expect the worst. One good deed carries a lot more weight than you think it does. Just because the news doesn't talk about the good things does not mean that people do not know about them, or remember them. You should try believing in the good of people instead of the bad, I bet you life will be a lot better.

The nature of PR, Sweetheart. And Human Nature.

Human nature, as I explained, is the opposite of PR.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yanno.......Bodecea speaks the truth when she stated that "1,000 attaboys can be wiped out by 1 aw shit".

Factor in the fact that this is an international aw shit.......well........think about it..........what do people remember first, the things that you did well, or the things that you totally fucked up by showing your ass?

I'll give you a hint...........it's the latter.

Go ahead.........ask me how I know........it's a tawdry story of where I personally fucked up and came back.

She is wrong, just like you are. When you were in the Navy how many people came up to you and told you how a sailor or Marine helped their family at some point? How many came up told you a bad memory?

Both...and the bad aways stands out faster and longer. We may not like it, but it is Human Nature.....if it weren't, our newspapers, network news and even internet news wouldn't be 90% bad news.

You know this, I know this, everyone knows this....so it's silly for you to even attempt to deny it.....just makes you look foolish.

The bad stands out faster, the good lasts longer.

 

[ABikerSailor]

She is wrong, just like you are. When you were in the Navy how many people came up to you and told you how a sailor or Marine helped their family at some point? How many came up told you a bad memory?

Both...and the bad aways stands out faster and longer. We may not like it, but it is Human Nature.....if it weren't, our newspapers, network news and even internet news wouldn't be 90% bad news.

You know this, I know this, everyone knows this....so it's silly for you to even attempt to deny it.....just makes you look foolish.

The bas stands out faster, the good lasts longer.

Yes, the bad does stand out faster, but if you defend the bad by excusing their actions, you end up with a very undisciplined unit.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yanno.......Bodecea speaks the truth when she stated that "1,000 attaboys can be wiped out by 1 aw shit".

Factor in the fact that this is an international aw shit.......well........think about it..........what do people remember first, the things that you did well, or the things that you totally fucked up by showing your ass?

I'll give you a hint...........it's the latter.

Go ahead.........ask me how I know........it's a tawdry story of where I personally fucked up and came back.

She is wrong, just like you are. When you were in the Navy how many people came up to you and told you how a sailor or Marine helped their family at some point? How many came up told you a bad memory?

Depends on the country I was visiting and what their view of America was. In places where there were lots of Brits around, I generally never paid for drinks, because they were happy about what we'd done in WWII for them, and really liked Yanks.

However..........in other places like Italy or Greece or places in the ME, I wouldn't hear so much about the things that the military did right, I'd get asked by locals why our country was doing the things it was doing. Matter of fact, under Reagan and Bush Sr. I was a bit nervous walking around, because under Reagan USO's were getting bombed, and under Bush Sr., not many people overseas liked him.

Yeah..........the bad things about the country generally reflect back on us a LOT faster than the good that we've done, and this incident will reverberate for a while, even after the people here in the US have let it pass by.

There is a difference between not liking politics and respecting the American military. The people bombing USOs wouldn't like you if you went in and saved their entire family from a rampaging mob. Trying to appease them will only make things worse.