Agree or Disagree?

[Artevelde]

Do you know who the settlers and founders of your Nation were? I haven't seen anything in your posts indicating you do. I'm patient though. I'll wait for you to post something of any substance at all on the issue.

The first settlers escaped Religious persecution...

They're rolling over in thier graves now as it's happening again in the land they came to to escape it.

~Go figure

And they didn't want to make that mistake twice.

All are welcome here. No religion gets to determine how we live. And that means our laws are not based on the bible.

Actually the first settlers were very intolerant in religious matters and enforced a strict religious orthodoxy. You are totally confusing the issue here. The views of the first settlers on the relationship between state and religion was radically different from that of the constitutional founders.

You are right that the US constitution is built on the idea that no religion is forced upon the individual citizen. That being said, since the Bible and Christianity are one of the major foundations of our civilization, they do obviously influence public life (why else would we be living in the year 2012, would there be such a thing as Sunday, etc.).

 

[Artevelde]

Benjamin Franklin:
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Poor Richard's Almanack,

Thomas Paine:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

James Madison:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

John Adams :

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

Not many Christians among the Founders, Jay was an exception. Most were Deists.

The actual words of the founders carry more weight with me than any history book would or could.

Yes, I already knew you were an advocate of ignorance and stupidity.

 

[Artevelde]

Our laws are based on the law, so what you just said is not the truth.

That must be one of the clearest professions of intellectual incapacity I've seen so far.

 

[Artevelde]

I picked other. I think the principles of the BOR, DOI, and Constitution, were heavily influenced by christian beliefs. The country surely wasn't founded on atheistic principles, so I never quite get why liberal atheists want to minimize Christianity's role in the founding of this country. Our rights are not given by the government or the big bang according to our founding fathers last time I checked. Are atheists just obsessed with this or what?

I see your point and I doubted about picking "other" too. I went for "no" in the end because of the phrasing of the question. If you actually phrase it like it was done in the beginning, I feel that you have to say that the US institutions were not "founded" on any religion. That doesn't mean of course that the US consitution was not influenced by religion. Like everything in our civilization, it was.

 

[Artevelde]

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” –James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774

Do you really think that copy-pasting little quotes out of context proves anything, except your stupidity and bias?

 

[Artevelde]

Something like 98% of the Founding Fathers of the United States were MASONS. Their main religious affiliation was UNITARIAN. The rest were either Catholic or Church of England.

The Founding Fathers did NOT care for people who would manipulate The Bible for their own purposes. Their disdain for manipulative Christian religious philosophies and manipulative preachers is well-documented. People like Jerry Fallwell, Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Copeland, Gene Scott, Jimmy Swaggart, Peter Popov, Benny Hinn, and others of their ilk would bring out their anger. Read the works of Thomas Paine (“Common Sense”) and Thomas Jefferson. (Fundamentalists conveniently over-look Jefferson’s scathing attacks on these kinds of preachers.) Jefferson, himself, was so angry with these kinds of philosophies and people that he even wrote his own version of The Bible. The Bible that George Washington and many of the presidents took the oath of office on was, in fact, a Masonic Bible. That Bible is now in the Smithsonian.

Religion and the Founding Fathers | Seniors for a Democratic Society

A friend of mine sent me this and I thought it was fascinating.

You really need to read a serious history book.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Benjamin Franklin:
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Poor Richard's Almanack,

Thomas Paine:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

James Madison:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

John Adams :

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

Not many Christians among the Founders, Jay was an exception. Most were Deists.

Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian


http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

 

[Artevelde]

Benjamin Franklin:
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Poor Richard's Almanack,

Thomas Paine:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

James Madison:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

John Adams :

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

Not many Christians among the Founders, Jay was an exception. Most were Deists.

This is simply a complete falsehood. And a pretty stupid one to boot.

 

[BDBoop]

Benjamin Franklin:
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Poor Richard's Almanack,

Thomas Paine:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

James Madison:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

John Adams :

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

Not many Christians among the Founders, Jay was an exception. Most were Deists.

This is simply a complete falsehood. And a pretty stupid one to boot.

No, it's not. I did searches on the quotes, and they are accurate.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

What's odd about the whole treaty of Treaty of Tripoli Arabic version There is no Article 11. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crudeand flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha ofTripoli.

The eleventh article of the Barlow translation has no equivalent whatever in the Arabic. The Arabic text opposite that article is a letter from Hassan Pasha of Algiers to Yussuf Pasha of Tripoli. The letter gives notice of the treaty of peace concluded with the Americans and recommends its observation. Three fourths of the letter consists of an introduction, drawn up by a stupid secretary who just knew a certain number of bombastic words and expressions occurring in solemn documents, but entirely failed to catch their real meaning. Here the only thing to be done by a translator is to try to give the reader an impression of the nonsensical original:

Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty with Tripoli 1796 <BR> The Annotated Translation of 1930


The treaty of Treaty of Tripoli is a contradiction of what the founders had completed a few years earlier.

Bump

 

[bigrebnc1775]

First Prayer of the Continental Congress, 1774

Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior.

First Prayer of the Continental Congress, Office of the Chaplain

Bump

 

[Artevelde]

Benjamin Franklin:
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Poor Richard's Almanack,

Thomas Paine:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

James Madison:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

John Adams :

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

Not many Christians among the Founders, Jay was an exception. Most were Deists.

This is simply a complete falsehood. And a pretty stupid one to boot.

No, it's not. I did searches on the quotes, and they are accurate.

copy-pasting quotes out of context is a stupid technique to try to falsify things. Arguing this way that the founders were not Christians is a complete and deliberate lie.

 

[Lakhota]

Our Godless Constitution | The Nation

The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United States: A Country founded on Paganism

Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Constitutional Topic: The Constitution and Religion - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

 

[Papageorgio]

Not sure what the topic is and I feel to lazy to read all the posts.

So I'll agree to disagree with those that disagree with me.

 

[Artevelde]

Our Godless Constitution | The Nation

The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

The United States: A Country founded on Paganism

Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Constitutional Topic: The Constitution and Religion - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Just some copy paste propaganda. Thinking is clearly too difficult for you.

 

[Lakhota]

No, retard, I've read them all. You should try it. The Bible is a crock of shit, and the founders didn't found this nation on its nonsense.

 

[Artevelde]

No, retard, I've read them all. You should try it...

Try reading a serious historical work.

 

[Lakhota]

No, retard, I've read them all. You should try it...

Try reading a serious historical work.

You mean those that wingnuts have whitewashed? Please name some suggested reading material regarding this thread topic that wasn't written by religious lunatics.

 

[Artevelde]

No, retard, I've read them all. You should try it...

Try reading a serious historical work.

You mean those that wingnuts have whitewashed? Please name some suggested reading material regarding this thread topic that wasn't written by religious lunatics.

I would suggest Gordon S. Wood's excellent Empire of Liberty: A History of the Early Republic. But it's a real scholarly work and thus probably to difficult for you. One of the best recent workd though.

 

[Artevelde]

No, retard, I've read them all. You should try it. The Bible is a crock of shit, and the founders didn't found this nation on its nonsense.

Yes, bigots like yourself ultimately always say what's really on their mind.