Abraham Lincoln on trial

[Toro]

Before the war Southerners owned folks too.

The Black Codes were generally a Southern thing, another attempt to implement slavery light on Black folk.

After the War, The Civil Rights Act took effect, but them Southerners pissed all over them in their attempts to subjugate and enslave.

Another reason why the stupid notion that slavery would have died of it's accord anyway is just a huge pile ofcrap.

It would have died eventually.

1940 maybe? 1960?

Well before that, by the 1890s at least, given the advent of new economic models and technical developments related to industrialization. By that time the ‘slave’ would be obsolete and not economically feasible.

Maybe, I don't know. Slavery held back the South economically because it discouraged industrialization and urbanization. However, that is a more likely reason for the disbandment of slavery than any enlightened arguments of the inherent Rights of Man and freedom propagated by the defenders of the Confederacy today.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Chief Justice Taney was a southern sympathizer and infuriated that more than 2/3rds of the country believed, basically, Dred Scott was a bad decision and the North and West were not going to enforce it. By the end of 1861, Taney's role as an "arbiter" of secession was moot.

 

[JakeStarkey]

By 1860, 90% of Southern investment directly and indirectly tied to cotton.

Slavery was going nowhere until that little fact was cleared up.

 

[oreo]

I thought this a good time to start this thread, seeing that Hollywood is about to come out with a movie about Lincoln and all this talk about states wanting to secede. Also, Thanksgiving is upon us and Lincoln was the one who declared it a national holiday. For you see, Lincoln thought that creating a national holiday, that was only celebrated by the North, would help bring the nation together if we all celebrated it together.

Most of us have been spoon fed an image of Lincoln. For most of us, he stands out as one of America's greatest presidents, if not the best of the best. However, there are opposing view on this.

What Caused the Civil War Slavery States Rights Secession

President Licoln believed or thought that secession was illegal and strongly opposed it and obstructed the US Supreme Court convening and rendering a decision regarding whether or not any state had the right to secede. His opponent was none other than Cheif Justice Roger B. Taney who swore Lincoln into office. Tany ruled that Lilncoln's actions were illegal, criminal, and unconstitutional in his pursuit to prevent states from leaving the union.

Here are the charges.

1. Violation of the Constitution and his oath of office by invading and waging war against states that had legally and democratically withdrawn their consent from his government, inaugurating one of the cruelest wars in recent history.
2. Subverting the duly constituted governments of states that had not left the Union, thereby subverting their constitutional right to "republican form of government".
3. Raising troops without approval from Congress and expending funds without appropriation.
4. Suspending the writ of habeas Corpus and interfering with the press without due process, imprisoning thousands of citizens without charge or trial, and closing courts by military force where no hostilities were ocurring.
5. Corrupting the currency by manipulations and paper swindles unheard of in US history.
6. Fraud and corruption by appointees and contractors with his knowledge and connivance.
7. Continuing the war by raising ever larger bodies of troops by conscription and hiring of foreign merceneries and refusing to negotiate in good faith for an end to hostilities.
8. Confiscation of millions of dollars of civilian property by his agents in the South, esecially cotton, wihtout legal proceedings.
9. Waging war against women, children, civilians, and civilian property as the matter of policy, e.g. Sherman's March.


Funny how we were never taught this stuff in school, isn't it?

To begin the debate, I will debunk the notion that Licoln faught the war just to render slavery a thing of the past. After all, Licoln supported the Corwin Amendment to be added to the Constitution. It had passed Congress and it protected slavery in those states where it already existed. A few weeks before the war, Licoln went so far as to pen a letter to every governor in the South asking for their support in ratifying the Corwin Amendment as a means to avoid seccession. Licoln was obviously willing to allow slavery to continue, just to keep the union together. If so, why then did the South proceed in their plans to secede?

In short, was the Civil war really about slavery? It seems to me that the power and wealth that the South had to offer the northern states was enough to warrant a war that cost the union about 3% of it's population as dead, but why then was the South so determined to leave the union, especially in light of the fact that they apparently did not need to end slavery as a price for staying in the union?

As for today, the question is still being asked. Is it illegal to secede? If so, bring your best arugments to defend your position. More importantly, however, if it is illegal then should SCOTUS not be included on determing the Constitutionality of such an act?

Well--you're going to have to see the movie to determine your reaction to it. BTW--it is absolutely fantastic and it really wouldn't surprise me to see a lot of Academy Awards come out of it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

John Hay, the second secretary to Lincoln and later Secretary of State, said somewhere that secession was legal until Lincoln decided it was not.

That is sufficient.

 

[paperview]

What of the North? The North was more than willing to make slavery Constitutional, even though the arugment for some here seems to be that Licoln was trying to deceive them into thinking this but then pull the rug out from under them later on.

The North was interested in the wealth and power of the South as well, that is why they were willing to allow slavery. It really showed that to be the case after Lincoln plundered the wealth of the South after the war.

Anyone with any brains knows is all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

How did a dead man "plunder the South" after the war.

My bad.

Actually before Lincoln died and the war ended supreme court chief justice Taney made the allegation that Lincoln confiscated millions of dollars of civilian property, expecially cotton, without any legal proceedings. However, Lincoln is merely an empty chair of sorts. The Notth was not willing to let go of the South's wealth, resources, and man power.

Yeah, the Slaveholder who wrote this:

It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in regard to that unfortunate race which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted; but the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken. They had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far unfit that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect.

was the go-to person when it came to matters of Lincoln.

Empty chair? There is one huge chair a statue of that man sits on in Washington, where millions and millions have paid tribute and honor to for his role in preserving the Union, and putting an end to our national congenital defect.

 

[oreo]

Hey Comatose, do you ever have an original thought of your own?

And do you think making the font bigger somehow makes your inane quote festival more salient?

Pointing to what other countries did is meaningless. It didn't happen here.

The reasons being the economic advantages of slavery were far to high for Southerners to consider relinquishing, and the confederates were in no way inclined to lessen their control over African Americans.

In addition, paying compensation for billions of dollars worth of property would have been completely unworkable.

Yo fucktard, so wiping out over 600,000 AMERICANS was better?

Are you by any chance in Obama's hellcare death panels

.

Yep. The rebs were pretty stupid to start a war that resulted in such bloodshed.

Uhh--it was the SOUTH that fired the first shot. And what you're FURIOUS about is that Abe Lincoln was a Republican--(and this movie) more than clarifies that the Republican party stood solidly behind the 13 amendment--and they actually had to bribe more than 27 democrats to vote for it--to get it to pass.

Same thing during the civil rights act LBJ--had a backing of Republicans go get it through while Al Gore Sr. was having a kanipition fit over it.

Abe Lincoln never believed that one person could own another. The movie is a must see for EVERYONE.

 

[paperview]

By 1860, 90% of Southern investment directly and indirectly tied to cotton.

Slavery was going nowhere until that little fact was cleared up.

It should be noted as well, it was not until after WWII a commercially viable mechanized cotton harvester would become available.

 

[paperview]

Yo fucktard, so wiping out over 600,000 AMERICANS was better?

Are you by any chance in Obama's hellcare death panels

.

Yep. The rebs were pretty stupid to start a war that resulted in such bloodshed.

Uhh--it was the SOUTH that fired the first shot. And what you're FURIOUS about is that Abe Lincoln was a Republican--(and this movie) more than clarifies that the Republican party stood solidly behind the 13 amendment--and they actually had to bribe more than 27 democrats to vote for it--to get it to pass.

Same thing during the civil rights act LBJ--had a backing of Republicans go get it through while Al Gore Sr. was having a kanipition fit over it.

Abe Lincoln never believed that one person could own another. The movie is a must see for EVERYONE.

I think you meant to post this to someone else.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Oreo, bud, lighten up.

I imagine this will be the most watched movie before the New Year.

 

[paperview]

Before the war Southerners owned folks too.

The Black Codes were generally a Southern thing, another attempt to implement slavery light on Black folk.

After the War, The Civil Rights Act took effect, but them Southerners pissed all over them in their attempts to subjugate and enslave.

Another reason why the stupid notion that slavery would have died of it's accord anyway is just a huge pile ofcrap.

It would have died eventually.

1940 maybe? 1960?

Well before that, by the 1890s at least, given the advent of new economic models and technical developments related to industrialization. By that time the ‘slave’ would be obsolete and not economically feasible.

I'll add that to this day there are migrant farm workers who come here in droves to harvest certain crops by hand.

Mechanization and technical developments hasn't eliminated their workforce.

 

[oreo]

It would have died eventually.

1940 maybe? 1960?

Well before that, by the 1890s at least, given the advent of new economic models and technical developments related to industrialization. By that time the ‘slave’ would be obsolete and not economically feasible.

I'll add that to this day there are migrant farm workers who come here in droves to harvest certain crops by hand.

Mechanization and technical developments hasn't eliminated their workforce.

Do you people really believe that slavery would have just ended by it's own--without Abe Lincoln?---- Somewhere around 1940---

Good Grief some of you have your heads so far up your asses it's unbelievable.

You're nothing but freaking liberals who don't want to give credit to a Republican President who saw the horror in slavery. You probably went to see the movie and couldn't believe what you saw.

 

[paperview]

Well before that, by the 1890s at least, given the advent of new economic models and technical developments related to industrialization. By that time the ‘slave’ would be obsolete and not economically feasible.

I'll add that to this day there are migrant farm workers who come here in droves to harvest certain crops by hand.

Mechanization and technical developments hasn't eliminated their workforce.

Do you people really believe that slavery would have just ended by it's own--without Abe Lincoln?---- Somewhere around 1940---

Good Grief some of you have your heads so far up your asses it's unbelievable.

You're nothing but freaking liberals who don't want to give credit to a Republican President who saw the horror in slavery. You probably went to see the movie and couldn't believe what you saw.

I don't know what in holy hell you are talking about, but whatever it is, it has nothing to do with my posts.

Geezez.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Innocent! Greatest President in our history, no one even close.

Saw the movie btw....its an award winner....but you gotta know history to enjoy it.

This is your rebuttal?

So in your opinion, trampling the Constitution is OK, just so long as it is done in the name of preerving the union? Was the "unon" worth 10,500 battles, 620,000 deaths, and 1,030,000 causualties? Is there a price too great to preserve the union or should any price be paid?

It seemed to me that the South had been given the option to preserve slavery by Lincoln. Had they taken the option by Licoln, would you still say that he was the greatest president in US history? It seems to me that all the South wanted was to be free from Washington and they desired to go peacefully.

.....As-long-as the North kept buying their cotton.​

 

[JakeStarkey]

Slave labor in factories exist the world around, including the US, especially in labor-intensive jobs, like prostitution.

It would have died eventually.

1940 maybe? 1960?

Well before that, by the 1890s at least, given the advent of new economic models and technical developments related to industrialization. By that time the ‘slave’ would be obsolete and not economically feasible.

I'll add that to this day there are migrant farm workers who come here in droves to harvest certain crops by hand.

Mechanization and technical developments hasn't eliminated their workforce.

 

[Rozman]

Drastic times called for drastic measures. There was no precedent for what our nation was going through. Lincoln was chief executive and used his powers to preserve the union

And yes, the war was about slavery. Lincoln may have initially been willing to appease the slave states to buy time....but it was the slave states that insisted on leaving the union to preserve their right to own another human being

Lincoln was chief executive and used his powers to preserve the union

Sort of like the Democrats of today with their

Let's tax the shit outta people so we can spend more manifesto....

 

[Rozman]

But we will only spend it wisely......

 

[Votto]

Well--you're going to have to see the movie to determine your reaction to it. BTW--it is absolutely fantastic and it really wouldn't surprise me to see a lot of Academy Awards come out of it.

Let me guess, what I wrote about Lincoln was not in the movie.

Shocking!!

Men who have usurped the power of the states and centralized power have historically been elevated to the level of a mythical great man, like Abe Lincoln and FDR. It's the progressive bias that we have bought into all these years.

Disgusting.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Votto, you are disgusting to believe preservation of the Union, the end of slavery, the overthrow of fascism and militarism, the fight against the Great Depression, the rise of the greatest middle class in history ~ you are disgusting to disregard or by silent inference seem to believe all of this is worthless.

 

[paperview]

Let me guess, what I wrote about Lincoln was not in the movie.

Shocking!!
...

What you wrote about Lincoln wasn't even in history.

You summed up your OP with the worthless tiddlebit of the Corwin Amendment and
"...but why then was the South so determined to leave the union, especially in light of the fact that they apparently did not need to end slavery as a price for staying in the union?"

altogether missing the fact most of the states had already seceded by the time it passed Congress.

Timelines. Facts. They matter.