Abraham Lincoln on trial

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Votto, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. Votto
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    Votto Gold Member

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    I thought this a good time to start this thread, seeing that Hollywood is about to come out with a movie about Lincoln and all this talk about states wanting to secede. Also, Thanksgiving is upon us and Lincoln was the one who declared it a national holiday. For you see, Lincoln thought that creating a national holiday, that was only celebrated by the North, would help bring the nation together if we all celebrated it together.

    Most of us have been spoon fed an image of Lincoln. For most of us, he stands out as one of America's greatest presidents, if not the best of the best. However, there are opposing view on this.

    What Caused the Civil War Slavery States Rights Secession

    President Licoln believed or thought that secession was illegal and strongly opposed it and obstructed the US Supreme Court convening and rendering a decision regarding whether or not any state had the right to secede. His opponent was none other than Cheif Justice Roger B. Taney who swore Lincoln into office. Tany ruled that Lilncoln's actions were illegal, criminal, and unconstitutional in his pursuit to prevent states from leaving the union.

    Here are the charges.

    1. Violation of the Constitution and his oath of office by invading and waging war against states that had legally and democratically withdrawn their consent from his government, inaugurating one of the cruelest wars in recent history.
    2. Subverting the duly constituted governments of states that had not left the Union, thereby subverting their constitutional right to "republican form of government".
    3. Raising troops without approval from Congress and expending funds without appropriation.
    4. Suspending the writ of habeas Corpus and interfering with the press without due process, imprisoning thousands of citizens without charge or trial, and closing courts by military force where no hostilities were ocurring.
    5. Corrupting the currency by manipulations and paper swindles unheard of in US history.
    6. Fraud and corruption by appointees and contractors with his knowledge and connivance.
    7. Continuing the war by raising ever larger bodies of troops by conscription and hiring of foreign merceneries and refusing to negotiate in good faith for an end to hostilities.
    8. Confiscation of millions of dollars of civilian property by his agents in the South, esecially cotton, wihtout legal proceedings.
    9. Waging war against women, children, civilians, and civilian property as the matter of policy, e.g. Sherman's March.


    Funny how we were never taught this stuff in school, isn't it?

    To begin the debate, I will debunk the notion that Licoln faught the war just to render slavery a thing of the past. After all, Licoln supported the Corwin Amendment to be added to the Constitution. It had passed Congress and it protected slavery in those states where it already existed. A few weeks before the war, Licoln went so far as to pen a letter to every governor in the South asking for their support in ratifying the Corwin Amendment as a means to avoid seccession. Licoln was obviously willing to allow slavery to continue, just to keep the union together. If so, why then did the South proceed in their plans to secede?

    In short, was the Civil war really about slavery? It seems to me that the power and wealth that the South had to offer the northern states was enough to warrant a war that cost the union about 3% of it's population as dead, but why then was the South so determined to leave the union, especially in light of the fact that they apparently did not need to end slavery as a price for staying in the union?

    As for today, the question is still being asked. Is it illegal to secede? If so, bring your best arugments to defend your position. More importantly, however, if it is illegal then should SCOTUS not be included on determing the Constitutionality of such an act?
     
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  2. craner
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    craner Member

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    Innocent! Greatest President in our history, no one even close.

    Saw the movie btw....its an award winner....but you gotta know history to enjoy it.
     
  3. TheOldSchool
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    TheOldSchool Diamond Member

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    last stop for sanity before reaching the south
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    We just lost Elmo. You really want to lose Lincoln too???
     
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  4. Matthew
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    Matthew Blue dog all the way!

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    In 1858 he thought my way to the extreme. That's all you need to know.
     
  5. Lakhota
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    Lakhota Diamond Member

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    If most slaves had been like Allen West, I doubt Abe would have bothered with a Civil War.
     
  6. Matthew
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    Matthew Blue dog all the way!

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    No one would have any doubt of blacks being capable of being civilized if that was so. They never would of been inslaved to begining with.
     
  7. Votto
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    Votto Gold Member

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    This is your rebuttal?

    So in your opinion, trampling the Constitution is OK, just so long as it is done in the name of preerving the union? Was the "unon" worth 10,500 battles, 620,000 deaths, and 1,030,000 causualties? Is there a price too great to preserve the union or should any price be paid?

    It seemed to me that the South had been given the option to preserve slavery by Lincoln. Had they taken the option by Licoln, would you still say that he was the greatest president in US history? It seems to me that all the South wanted was to be free from Washington and they desired to go peacefully. Is democracy so repugnant to you or should self determination take a back seat to the federal power in Washington?
     
  8. Votto
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    Votto Gold Member

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    I hate to say it, but Santa and the Easter bunny are myths as well.

    Do you prefer a world where the Elmos of the world go unchecked or do you prefer reality?
     
  9. JoeB131
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    JoeB131 Diamond Member

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    While ridding ourselves of the dumb, inbred morons in the south would have its merits, Lincoln made the right call in doing whatever it took to keep the Union together.

    Not surprising, the descendents of the same dumb assholes who died by the thousands today so a few rich douchebags can live in mansions and own slaves, are the same dumb assholes today who vote Republican and support "Right to Work" laws that allow big corporations run by rich douchebags to pay them less.
     
  10. konradv
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    konradv Gold Member

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    #s 4 and 7 seem to be total BS.

    4) The Constitution plainly gives the president the power to suspend habeus corpus.

    The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. Article I, Section 9.

    7) Unable to find any evidence of the Union hiring mercenaries. If there were any during the war, Southern blockade runners seem to be the only group where foreigners were in it solely for the money.

    The other points can be open to interpretation, but these two seem to be the most easily debunked.
     

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