Abortion: Why Men Don't Get A Say

[Si modo]

Close your legs

The fact of the matter is that both men and women are equally responsible for conception.

However, for gestation, the woman is solely responsible. Her body, her choice.

If it's her decision, then should a man who makes it clear he wants nothing to do with it be forced to pay for the child for the next 18 years?

Nope. I made a post addressing that a bit back, too.

 

[Madeline]

A man that is involved in the life of his child even unborn SHOULD have a say on NOT aborting said baby.

How would that work?

The man says no abortion, the woman says abortion. It's a tie.

The man says abortion, the woman says no abortion. It's a tie.

If you make them equal participants in the decision, every time there's a disagreement, all you have is an unresolvable deadlock.

Not to mention, in order for the alleged father to be given any power of determination, he'd have to prove he's the father. How do you plan to do that?

a paternity test maybe ?

On a zygote?

*Puzzled look*

 

[Madeline]

Dominic Holt-Reid, Man Who Tried to Force Girlfriend to Have an Abortion, Charged With Attempted Murder | Scene and Heard: Scene's News Blog

Now imagine if men could legally compel women to abort or not?

How can it be murder to compel her to not commit murder?



Y'all need to make up your minds

What do you imagine the criminal in the Op was planning to do if his girlfriend resisted? He had a .45 -- it wasn't just for show. Would it have mattered to you in evaluating his crimes if he had been trying to prevent her from aborting?

IMO, either fact pattern is criminal.

 

[Madeline]

False imprisonment is kidnapping, still you make a valid point, if one believes they would rather suffer death or kidnapping instead of having a beautiful bundle of love that person should be locked up for their own health as well as the fetuses health who most likely would vote no to abortion, at least while still in the womb.

I wonder if you were pro-abortion as a ten week old fetus.

That is a good question when did your position change, it is more than reasonable that before you were born you were pro-life, when did you change your mind.

This is a good point to begin the debate.

Five minutes after I knew that a chick in my freshman high school class suicided over being preggers and unable to face it. These fetuses you're so fond of (and yes, I love babies too) are sometimes female.

Should your daughter not own her own body? Should her boyfriend get to "rent" it for nine months against her will?

An separate organism is not part of her body...

This is a philosphical argument, JB, not a medical fact.

 

[Madeline]

Better contraception is pretty much impossible.

They .1% of the time that it fails -99% of it is because morons don't use it properly

Wait a minute, isn't one of the big abortion arguments that it isn't used mainly as a form of birth control? well how does that square with Maddie's claim?

How many of them didn't use contraception [properly] in the first place?

Condoms, the pill, the foam, the rods, female condoms... so many options to choose from and so many of them free from liberal feminist groups and Planned Parenthood...

What ever is a young slut to do?

Ah yes, the anti-female rage. Blame her and shame her...drag your knuckles much writing this post, JB?

 

[Madeline]

Close your legs

The fact of the matter is that both men and women are equally responsible for conception.

However, for gestation, the woman is solely responsible. Her body, her choice.

If it's her decision, then should a man who makes it clear he wants nothing to do with it be forced to pay for the child for the next 18 years?

A child is entitled to support from both parents. How can the Mommy give away the child's right to a decent life, JB? Can I give away your rights?

Leaving that aside for the moment, consider what would happen to women if men could bully them into surrendering their child's rights to financial support from the father. Are we supposed to be in the business of encouraging violence and intimidation against new moms?

 

[Madeline]

I love how a woman can go on Maury 6 times with 37 men and demand one of the guys who was part of a train at a party one night give her money for the next 18 years...

Go, neofeminism...

So it is okay for a group of men to gang bang, but the chick who pulls a train is trash? You have some severe gender bias issues, JB. How can one act at least two people must commit only tar the female as a POS?

 

[Madeline]

I love how a woman can go on Maury 6 times with 37 men and demand one of the guys who was part of a train at a party one night give her money for the next 18 years...

Go, neofeminism...

That would be okay with me IF in that situation the woman didn't want the child and she was required by law to carry it to term if the father wanted custody AND she was required to pay child support.

Isn't THAT equality. I mean can a man just rip the baby out of the woman if he's not wanting to have achild?

These women don't want equality--they want revenge.

If you inspire vengeful feelings in women, dilloduck, that's on you.

 

[Madeline]

Close your legs

The fact of the matter is that both men and women are equally responsible for conception.

However, for gestation, the woman is solely responsible. Her body, her choice.

I am sorry Si, this is where I disagree with you. Why is it that they are both responsible for the conception but not the rest??? Really. The babie's body is not her body, she is just a vessel. Not a dictator

PixieStix, this statement of yours is exactly why abortion on demand must always remain legal. How, in a democracy in which all people are equal, can the government single out women of reproductive age and assign them the legal status of "just a vessel"? By what right does the government tell these women and their doctors that a medically sound procedure (or pill) may not be made available to them because their rights to dominion over their own bodies are not recognized under the law?

If men and women are equal under the law, then at a minimum, both must AT LEAST own their own bodies. If a person has no right to dominion over the physical self, then that person has no rights of any value, period....because physical dominion over the body is as basic and fundamental a right as there could possibly be. It is a religious or moral POV to say "abortion is wrong", and I have no problem with that. We live in a pluralistic society and many people have divergent views on abortion which IME should govern their conduct and the conduct of those they have influence over.

I DO have a problem with the government telling certain women "your rights have been suspended" until menopause. So should you; women who oppose abortion rights have always bumfuddled me no end. Why would you agitate to deprive yourself and your sisters of basic civil liberties?

 

[Madeline]

I am sorry Si, this is where I disagree with you. Why is it that they are both responsible for the conception but not the rest??? Really. The babie's body is not her body, she is just a vessel. Not a dictator

because they don't bear the repercussions of carrying the pregnancy to term.

you have every right to make whatever determination for yourself that you think is appropriate.

you have no right to make such determinations for anyone else. and i always find it really funny when the people who claim to want 'small government' want to legislate relationships between people. if a woman's relationship with the person who got her pregnant is a good one, she will take his opinion into consideration. if it isn't, she won't.

and someone has to have final say. it should be the person whose body it is.

or do you think a man should have veto power?

What about the "body" that is being mutilated or otherwise destroyed? How freaking unfair is that?

You can wax poetic all you like PixieStix, but the plain medical fact is, a zygote is not a person. If allowed to develop, some zygotes (but not all) will become persons.....the very fact that enormous changes must take place over time in order for that to happen should have been Clue One that these are two different entities altogether.

Why else do you think the government does not apply the laws regarding safe burial or cremation of a corpse to the medical waste products of an abortion?

This impulse to Disney-fy every potential pregnancy is hyperbolic nonsense and utterly without scientific or medical underinning. If you are going to legislate about my basic civil rights, do so with your Bible left at home.....and your book of folksey greeting card sayings closed.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I agree, the way i read SP post he was saying how can a man be responsible if he goes on faith that a woman is telling the truth about being on the pill. He cant. If he wants to make sure then use a condom. Simple as that.

In my opinion a mans right to have any in say what happens ends at the time his sperm enters a woman body. Any consequences after that point he needs to live with one way or the other.

No matter how you slice it, men do not have the outs that a woman has when it comes to an unwanted kid.

They should but they don't..

I agree that they don't. Is that fair...no. But life is not fair.

Men also have all the power to keep their sperm to themselves.

Which is why I hold the position that a man should never trust a woman when it comes to birth control.

 

[Madeline]

The man's "say so" occurs in peak of the moment and after the fact only goes so far as his ability to communicate with his sexual partner. Her body, her choice at that point.

Do you prefer the thill of the power over the life of the child or the power over a man ?

dilloduck, you don't just have issues...you have a subscription.

 

[syrenn]

Men can already control their fertility by not trusting a woman when she says she's on the pill.

Men have all the control. All they need to do is wear a condom. Then it would make no difference if a woman "says" she is on the pill or not. However i do understand that accidents happen even with a condom.

Women have all the control. All they need to do is take the pill, or take a pill the next day, or get the rods, or get an IUD... then it wouldn't matter if the prick didn't put the condom on right or it broke...

Agreed. But who is doing the whining in this thread? The men.

If pirck men as you so rightly put it don't want to pay for a baby for 18 years then its up to THEM to control their sperm. If they make a woman pregnant and she keeps it ,tough shit for them its their responsibility.

Again in my opinion once men give a woman sperm, his options are gone in any and all decisions regarding a woman's body after that. If that is not a position men wants to be in they THEY are need to control their sperm.

 

[syrenn]

Close your legs

The fact of the matter is that both men and women are equally responsible for conception.

However, for gestation, the woman is solely responsible. Her body, her choice.

I am sorry Si, this is where I disagree with you. Why is it that they are both responsible for the conception but not the rest??? Really. The babie's body is not her body, she is just a vessel. Not a dictator

In your opinion yes, and i understand that. In my opinion women are not captive vessels. They are not incubators on demand. If a woman does not want to carry a baby she doesn't have to.

As i have said before in other threads: Have the thimble full of cells Cesarean Sectioned out and give them to whom ever wants them.

 

[PixieStix]

Men have all the control. All they need to do is wear a condom. Then it would make no difference if a woman "says" she is on the pill or not. However i do understand that accidents happen even with a condom.

Women have all the control. All they need to do is take the pill, or take a pill the next day, or get the rods, or get an IUD... then it wouldn't matter if the prick didn't put the condom on right or it broke...

Agreed. But who is doing the whining in this thread? The men.

If pirck men as you so rightly put it don't want to pay for a baby for 18 years then its up to THEM to control their sperm. If they make a woman pregnant and she keeps it ,tough shit for them its their responsibility.

Again in my opinion once men give a woman sperm, his options are gone in any and all decisions regarding a woman's body after that. If that is not a position men wants to be in they THEY are need to control their sperm.

This post supposes that it only takes sperm to make a baby

 

[PixieStix]

The fact of the matter is that both men and women are equally responsible for conception.

However, for gestation, the woman is solely responsible. Her body, her choice.

I am sorry Si, this is where I disagree with you. Why is it that they are both responsible for the conception but not the rest??? Really. The babie's body is not her body, she is just a vessel. Not a dictator

In your opinion yes, and i understand that. In my opinion women are not captive vessels. They are not incubators on demand. If a woman does not want to carry a baby she doesn't have to.

As i have said before in other threads: Have the thimble full of cells Cesarean Sectioned out and give them to whom ever wants them.

Captive vessels? Thimble full of cells cesarean sectioned out?

 

[PixieStix]

When the men willfully engages in intercourse he has obligated himself, at that point, to child support, should a child result.

Then any woman who has willfully engaged in intercourse has obligated herself to having a child should one result. See how THAT works?

No, that's retarded. Abortion is a legal, constitutionally protected option.

legal does not make it right, constitutionally protected only because of not having the will to define when life begins

 

[syrenn]

Women have all the control. All they need to do is take the pill, or take a pill the next day, or get the rods, or get an IUD... then it wouldn't matter if the prick didn't put the condom on right or it broke...

Agreed. But who is doing the whining in this thread? The men.

If pirck men as you so rightly put it don't want to pay for a baby for 18 years then its up to THEM to control their sperm. If they make a woman pregnant and she keeps it ,tough shit for them its their responsibility.

Again in my opinion once men give a woman sperm, his options are gone in any and all decisions regarding a woman's body after that. If that is not a position men wants to be in they THEY are need to control their sperm.

This post supposes that it only takes sperm to make a baby

No, it is the men who are whining they are being treated unfairly. If they do not want to be "treated "unfairly" they they have ALL the control to keep their sperm to themselves and NOT put themselves in such a position.

It takes two to make a baby. If that baby comes to term then both must pay for its support.

Only ONE person carries the baby. The person doing the carrying is the ONLY one who has the right to choose to do so or not. Again if men dont like that option they have the right to keep all of their spem to themselves.

 

[syrenn]

I am sorry Si, this is where I disagree with you. Why is it that they are both responsible for the conception but not the rest??? Really. The babie's body is not her body, she is just a vessel. Not a dictator

In your opinion yes, and i understand that. In my opinion women are not captive vessels. They are not incubators on demand. If a woman does not want to carry a baby she doesn't have to.

As i have said before in other threads: Have the thimble full of cells Cesarean Sectioned out and give them to whom ever wants them.

Captive vessels? Thimble full of cells cesarean sectioned out?

Yes pix. vessel was your choice of words for a woman. If a woman is forced to give birth then that is a captive vessel. As far as i am concerned life does not start until it is birthed. Cesarean section is NOT a violent abortion, it is a form of birth. If men are whining about wanting a child, fine, have the cells removed and given to the father to gestate.

 

[dilloduck]

In your opinion yes, and i understand that. In my opinion women are not captive vessels. They are not incubators on demand. If a woman does not want to carry a baby she doesn't have to.

As i have said before in other threads: Have the thimble full of cells Cesarean Sectioned out and give them to whom ever wants them.

Captive vessels? Thimble full of cells cesarean sectioned out?

Yes pix. vessel was your choice of words for a woman. If a woman is forced to give birth then that is a captive vessel. As far as i am concerned life does not start until it is birthed. Cesarean section is NOT a violent abortion, it is a form of birth. If men are whining about wanting a child, fine, have the cells removed and given to the father to gestate.

Do you understand that men can't gestate them? Sort of an empty offer don't you think ?