A Young Woman Stoned for Adultery

[Programmer]

Yeah, this is like what the mainstream media is doing to all the GOP candidates. It's horrible.

 

[Muhammed]

As I suspected -- an "honor killing". It's an ancient tribal custom enacted for social control that predates Islam, Christianism, Sikhism, Hinduism and every other religion where it still takes place. It's fucked up, it's primitive, it's based on archconservative hyperpatriarchy --- but it's got nothing to do with religion. It has to do with women scaring the shit out of men so they get violent about it. The last quoted sentence underscores that.

Not religious. Just as the Gospel event cited in the OP would have had nothing to do with Judaism. It dates back thousands of years to nomadic tribes jealous of their possessions.

You're welcome.

Give me a break. This thing has Islam fingerprints all over it. Who gives a sh** what you think the origin of this "custom" is.

The custom is older than Islam. So logically...

 

[JoeB131]

Altruism; you comprehend it zero percent.

I understand bullshit perfectly well. You don't give a fuck about slutty women getting stoned in Afghanistan and you don't care about Devil Worshipping Yazidis being slaughter in Iraq.

Your concerns are...

1) Ripping on Obama because he's not throwing American blood and Treasure at the problem like Bush did.
2) Being a tool of big oil wanting us to do 1).

Not to worry, I'm sure there's no chance of you ever signing up to put an end to these things. Let some poor brown kid from the Ghetto come back in a body bag for your "Altruism".

 

[ChrisL]

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

"Their punishment included an immediate severe whipping at the public post in Plymouth, a second whipping at the public post in Yarmouth (where the act was committed), and the wearing of "two letters, namely, an AD, for Adulterers, daily, vpon the outside of their vppermost garment, in a most emenent place thereof" for as long as they remain in the colony (PCR 2:28). Failure to wear the letters would result in another whipping. This is the only case in which both parties receive identical punishments."

"The law of Plymouth Colony set forth a very high standard of ideal sexual conduct -- one might say it was an ideal adopted from the laws of their God. Sodomy, rape, buggery, and adultery (for a time) were all crimes punishable by death. Fornication and other lascivious acts outside of marriage were strictly forbidden. However, when faced with a capital crime, the court avoided execution in all but one case."

Sexual Misconduct in Plymouth Colony

And more recently the Ku Klux Klan did the same thing. That's why I call 'em the "American Taliban".

Spitting on the sidewalk is a crime too in many places IIRC and like adultery is not prosecuted. Stoning would be considered cruel and unusual and would not happen.

Also, the US is secular, not a theocratic government.

Actually laws on the books are as irrelevant as religion, since acts like the OP are, like lynchings or Klan whippings, vigilante "justice" -- a mob mentality outside the purview of both.

Not every act that mobs commit is traceable to either laws or religions.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Why do you keep lying about this? Stoning is a punishment that exists in any country that practices Sharia law, such as Iran.

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<​

--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<​

"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<​

That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<
​

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:

>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<​

Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

 

[Picaro]

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

Yes, a lot of sophistry and selective cut and pasting, only to make the weak schoolyardish point that "Uh ... other people did it too, so there, take that!", which is apparently supposed to absolve these animals and their atavistic cult practices in the present or something. You didn't miss anything, just the 'bombard them with BS' tactic.

 

[irosie91]

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

Kinda curious how Christians so readily condemn non-Christians for their handling of adultery when...

"The United States is one of few industrialized countries to have laws criminalizing adultery.[133] In the United States, laws vary from state to state.

Adultery remains a criminal offense in 21 states, although prosecutions are rare.[141][142] Massachusetts, Idaho, Oklahoma, Michigan, and Wisconsin consider adultery a felony, while in the other states it is a misdemeanor. It is a Class B misdemeanor in New York[143] and Utah, and a Class I felony in Wisconsin.[144] Penalties vary from a $10 fine (Maryland)[145] to four years in prison (Michigan).[146] In South Carolina, the fine for adultery is up to $500 and/or imprisonment for no more than one year [South Carolina code 16-15-60], and South Carolina divorce laws deny alimony to the adulterous spouse.[147][148][149]"

and

"Christianity[edit]

The Hebrew Bible prohibits adultery in the Seventh Commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." (Exodus 20:12). Leviticus 20:10 prescribes capital punishment for adultery between a man and married woman:

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."


So are Christians or Americans really in any position to object what Muslims do in Muslim countries?

Do Christians in America do this? No, they do not.

"Their punishment included an immediate severe whipping at the public post in Plymouth, a second whipping at the public post in Yarmouth (where the act was committed), and the wearing of "two letters, namely, an AD, for Adulterers, daily, vpon the outside of their vppermost garment, in a most emenent place thereof" for as long as they remain in the colony (PCR 2:28). Failure to wear the letters would result in another whipping. This is the only case in which both parties receive identical punishments."

"The law of Plymouth Colony set forth a very high standard of ideal sexual conduct -- one might say it was an ideal adopted from the laws of their God. Sodomy, rape, buggery, and adultery (for a time) were all crimes punishable by death. Fornication and other lascivious acts outside of marriage were strictly forbidden. However, when faced with a capital crime, the court avoided execution in all but one case."

Sexual Misconduct in Plymouth Colony

And more recently the Ku Klux Klan did the same thing. That's why I call 'em the "American Taliban".

Kinda curious how Christians so readily condemn non-Christians for their handling of adultery when...

"The United States is one of few industrialized countries to have laws criminalizing adultery.[133] In the United States, laws vary from state to state.

Adultery remains a criminal offense in 21 states, although prosecutions are rare.[141][142] Massachusetts, Idaho, Oklahoma, Michigan, and Wisconsin consider adultery a felony, while in the other states it is a misdemeanor. It is a Class B misdemeanor in New York[143] and Utah, and a Class I felony in Wisconsin.[144] Penalties vary from a $10 fine (Maryland)[145] to four years in prison (Michigan).[146] In South Carolina, the fine for adultery is up to $500 and/or imprisonment for no more than one year [South Carolina code 16-15-60], and South Carolina divorce laws deny alimony to the adulterous spouse.[147][148][149]"

and

"Christianity[edit]

The Hebrew Bible prohibits adultery in the Seventh Commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." (Exodus 20:12). Leviticus 20:10 prescribes capital punishment for adultery between a man and married woman:

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."


So are Christians or Americans really in any position to object what Muslims do in Muslim countries?

Spitting on the sidewalk is a crime too in many places IIRC and like adultery is not prosecuted. Stoning would be considered cruel and unusual and would not happen.

Also, the US is secular, not a theocratic government.

Actually laws on the books are as irrelevant as religion, since acts like the OP are, like lynchings or Klan whippings, vigilante "justice" -- a mob mentality outside the purview of both.

Not every act that mobs commit is traceable to either laws or religions.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Pogo----you know nothing about shariah law or about hindus or about Sikhs-----your commentary is silly

 

[irosie91]

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

And more recently the Ku Klux Klan did the same thing. That's why I call 'em the "American Taliban".

Actually laws on the books are as irrelevant as religion, since acts like the OP are, like lynchings or Klan whippings, vigilante "justice" -- a mob mentality outside the purview of both.

Not every act that mobs commit is traceable to either laws or religions.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Why do you keep lying about this? Stoning is a punishment that exists in any country that practices Sharia law, such as Iran.

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<​

--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<​

"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<​

That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<
​

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:

>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<​

Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

the scum of the earth play the KORAN VS HADITHS game-----the real issue is SHARIAH LAW----that law determined by KORANIC SCHOLARS is that which
actually does define islam. Any time a person says or writes------"SHOW ME THE VERSE IN THE KORAN"-----that is a clear proof that he is a piece of shit

 

[Pogo]

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

And more recently the Ku Klux Klan did the same thing. That's why I call 'em the "American Taliban".

Actually laws on the books are as irrelevant as religion, since acts like the OP are, like lynchings or Klan whippings, vigilante "justice" -- a mob mentality outside the purview of both.

Not every act that mobs commit is traceable to either laws or religions.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Why do you keep lying about this? Stoning is a punishment that exists in any country that practices Sharia law, such as Iran.

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<​

--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<​

"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<​

That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<
​

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:

>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<​

Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

It's "mentioned" in the Holey Babble too. In fact that's where we all first learn of the practice as kids.

Does that mean it's a "Christian" thing?

Same thing.

I suspect you didn't read because it (again) disproves the whole myth. And we'll not be having any of that, thank you very much...

.... and by the way I used your own link to do it. Oopsie.

 

[Pogo]

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Why do you keep lying about this? Stoning is a punishment that exists in any country that practices Sharia law, such as Iran.

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<​

--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<​

"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<​

That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<
​

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:

>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<​

Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

the scum of the earth play the KORAN VS HADITHS game-----the real issue is SHARIAH LAW----that law determined by KORANIC SCHOLARS is that which
actually does define islam. Any time a person says or writes------"SHOW ME THE VERSE IN THE KORAN"-----that is a clear proof that he is a piece of shit

Actually that's proof that the burden OF proof is on the asserter. And when the asserter can't come up with it ---- poof... there goes perspiration odor.

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

Do Christians in America do this? No, they do not.

"Their punishment included an immediate severe whipping at the public post in Plymouth, a second whipping at the public post in Yarmouth (where the act was committed), and the wearing of "two letters, namely, an AD, for Adulterers, daily, vpon the outside of their vppermost garment, in a most emenent place thereof" for as long as they remain in the colony (PCR 2:28). Failure to wear the letters would result in another whipping. This is the only case in which both parties receive identical punishments."

"The law of Plymouth Colony set forth a very high standard of ideal sexual conduct -- one might say it was an ideal adopted from the laws of their God. Sodomy, rape, buggery, and adultery (for a time) were all crimes punishable by death. Fornication and other lascivious acts outside of marriage were strictly forbidden. However, when faced with a capital crime, the court avoided execution in all but one case."

Sexual Misconduct in Plymouth Colony

And more recently the Ku Klux Klan did the same thing. That's why I call 'em the "American Taliban".

Kinda curious how Christians so readily condemn non-Christians for their handling of adultery when...

"The United States is one of few industrialized countries to have laws criminalizing adultery.[133] In the United States, laws vary from state to state.

Adultery remains a criminal offense in 21 states, although prosecutions are rare.[141][142] Massachusetts, Idaho, Oklahoma, Michigan, and Wisconsin consider adultery a felony, while in the other states it is a misdemeanor. It is a Class B misdemeanor in New York[143] and Utah, and a Class I felony in Wisconsin.[144] Penalties vary from a $10 fine (Maryland)[145] to four years in prison (Michigan).[146] In South Carolina, the fine for adultery is up to $500 and/or imprisonment for no more than one year [South Carolina code 16-15-60], and South Carolina divorce laws deny alimony to the adulterous spouse.[147][148][149]"

and

"Christianity[edit]

The Hebrew Bible prohibits adultery in the Seventh Commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." (Exodus 20:12). Leviticus 20:10 prescribes capital punishment for adultery between a man and married woman:

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."


So are Christians or Americans really in any position to object what Muslims do in Muslim countries?

Spitting on the sidewalk is a crime too in many places IIRC and like adultery is not prosecuted. Stoning would be considered cruel and unusual and would not happen.

Also, the US is secular, not a theocratic government.

Actually laws on the books are as irrelevant as religion, since acts like the OP are, like lynchings or Klan whippings, vigilante "justice" -- a mob mentality outside the purview of both.

Not every act that mobs commit is traceable to either laws or religions.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Pogo----you know nothing about shariah law or about hindus or about Sikhs-----your commentary is silly

Translation don't you dare challenge my myths with that 'evidence' and 'logic' stuff!

 

[Pogo]

As I suspected -- an "honor killing". It's an ancient tribal custom enacted for social control that predates Islam, Christianism, Sikhism, Hinduism and every other religion where it still takes place. It's fucked up, it's primitive, it's based on archconservative hyperpatriarchy --- but it's got nothing to do with religion. It has to do with women scaring the shit out of men so they get violent about it. The last quoted sentence underscores that.

Not religious. Just as the Gospel event cited in the OP would have had nothing to do with Judaism. It dates back thousands of years to nomadic tribes jealous of their possessions.

You're welcome.

Give me a break. This thing has Islam fingerprints all over it. Who gives a sh** what you think the origin of this "custom" is.

The custom is older than Islam. So logically...

if...... Islam..... weighs the same.... as a duck..... ...... it must be made of ... wood?

 

[irosie91]

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Why do you keep lying about this? Stoning is a punishment that exists in any country that practices Sharia law, such as Iran.

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<​

--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<​

"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<​

That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<
​

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:

>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<​

Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

It's "mentioned" in the Holey Babble too. In fact that's where we all first learn of the practice as kids.

Does that mean it's a "Christian" thing?

Same thing.

I suspect you didn't read because it (again) disproves the whole myth. And we'll not be having any of that, thank you very much...

are Christians stoning people for adultery?------In fact--neither did jews in recorded history. Adultery is defined as screwing with a married woman. Both the man who screws a married woman and the married woman who screws is considered
guilty of a crime in ancient jewish law. In reality----in recorded history it has not
been treated as a capital crime in jewish jurisprudence. In Islamic jurisprudence---the crime consists of a WOMAN who -----simply gets screwed by any man not her
husband -----even if the issue is rape. A man can be considered guilty if HE screws a woman not "LEGAL" for him to screw-----that would be the wife of another MUSLIM MAN. Screwing a hindu, jew or Christian ---even if it is rape----is LEGAL. Feel free to ask ------I know lots about shariah law----my very own husband was born in a shariah cesspit. Not so long ago-----the "penalty" for
female adultery in jewish law was------usually her husband divorced her. At the time of the "cast the first stone" parable-----adultery was not being treated as a
capital crime

 

[irosie91]

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Why do you keep lying about this? Stoning is a punishment that exists in any country that practices Sharia law, such as Iran.

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<​

--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<​

"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<​

That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<
​

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:

>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<​

Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

the scum of the earth play the KORAN VS HADITHS game-----the real issue is SHARIAH LAW----that law determined by KORANIC SCHOLARS is that which
actually does define islam. Any time a person says or writes------"SHOW ME THE VERSE IN THE KORAN"-----that is a clear proof that he is a piece of shit

Actually that's proof that the burden OF proof is on the asserter. And when the asserter can't come up with it ---- poof... there goes perspiration odor.

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

"Their punishment included an immediate severe whipping at the public post in Plymouth, a second whipping at the public post in Yarmouth (where the act was committed), and the wearing of "two letters, namely, an AD, for Adulterers, daily, vpon the outside of their vppermost garment, in a most emenent place thereof" for as long as they remain in the colony (PCR 2:28). Failure to wear the letters would result in another whipping. This is the only case in which both parties receive identical punishments."

"The law of Plymouth Colony set forth a very high standard of ideal sexual conduct -- one might say it was an ideal adopted from the laws of their God. Sodomy, rape, buggery, and adultery (for a time) were all crimes punishable by death. Fornication and other lascivious acts outside of marriage were strictly forbidden. However, when faced with a capital crime, the court avoided execution in all but one case."

Sexual Misconduct in Plymouth Colony

And more recently the Ku Klux Klan did the same thing. That's why I call 'em the "American Taliban".

Spitting on the sidewalk is a crime too in many places IIRC and like adultery is not prosecuted. Stoning would be considered cruel and unusual and would not happen.

Also, the US is secular, not a theocratic government.

Actually laws on the books are as irrelevant as religion, since acts like the OP are, like lynchings or Klan whippings, vigilante "justice" -- a mob mentality outside the purview of both.

Not every act that mobs commit is traceable to either laws or religions.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Pogo----you know nothing about shariah law or about hindus or about Sikhs-----your commentary is silly

Translation don't you dare challenge my myths with that 'evidence' and 'logic' stuff!

you have no "EVIDENCE" pogo------stoning for adultery is part of the LEGAL CODE OF BOTH IRAN AND SAUDIA ARABIA -----adultery being a crime that women do------not men-----just women. It may be part of the legal code of many other shariah shit holes-------I have no interest in researching the issue

 

[Pogo]

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Why do you keep lying about this? Stoning is a punishment that exists in any country that practices Sharia law, such as Iran.

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<​

--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<​

"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<​

That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<
​

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:

>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<​

Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

It's "mentioned" in the Holey Babble too. In fact that's where we all first learn of the practice as kids.

Does that mean it's a "Christian" thing?

Same thing.

I suspect you didn't read because it (again) disproves the whole myth. And we'll not be having any of that, thank you very much...

are Christians stoning people for adultery?------In fact--neither did jews in recorded history.

What the fuck is going on in John 8: 3-11? Are they all about to sit down with a woman and get her high on hashish?

 

[Pogo]

Why do you keep lying about this? Stoning is a punishment that exists in any country that practices Sharia law, such as Iran.

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<


--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<


"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<


That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:


>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<


Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

the scum of the earth play the KORAN VS HADITHS game-----the real issue is SHARIAH LAW----that law determined by KORANIC SCHOLARS is that which
actually does define islam. Any time a person says or writes------"SHOW ME THE VERSE IN THE KORAN"-----that is a clear proof that he is a piece of shit

Actually that's proof that the burden OF proof is on the asserter. And when the asserter can't come up with it ---- poof... there goes perspiration odor.

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

And more recently the Ku Klux Klan did the same thing. That's why I call 'em the "American Taliban".

Actually laws on the books are as irrelevant as religion, since acts like the OP are, like lynchings or Klan whippings, vigilante "justice" -- a mob mentality outside the purview of both.

Not every act that mobs commit is traceable to either laws or religions.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Pogo----you know nothing about shariah law or about hindus or about Sikhs-----your commentary is silly

Translation don't you dare challenge my myths with that 'evidence' and 'logic' stuff!

you have no "EVIDENCE" pogo------stoning for adultery is part of the LEGAL CODE OF BOTH IRAN AND SAUDIA ARABIA -----adultery being a crime that women do------not men-----just women. It may be part of the legal code of many other shariah shit holes-------I have no interest in researching the issue

I have made no posts on what which country's adultery laws are. I have no interest in that either. Somebody earlier posted adultery laws in the US, but that wasn't me.

I haven't been posting on government laws or religious laws. I've been posting on tribal customs.

 

[irosie91]

Why do you keep lying about this? Stoning is a punishment that exists in any country that practices Sharia law, such as Iran.

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<​

--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<​

"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<​

That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<
​

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:

>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<​

Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

It's "mentioned" in the Holey Babble too. In fact that's where we all first learn of the practice as kids.

Does that mean it's a "Christian" thing?

Same thing.

I suspect you didn't read because it (again) disproves the whole myth. And we'll not be having any of that, thank you very much...

are Christians stoning people for adultery?------In fact--neither did jews in recorded history.

What the fuck is going on in John 8: 3-11? Are they all about to sit down with a woman and get her high on hashish?

there was no "JOHN" the book attributed to a "JOHN" is an amalgam of several writings the most exciting being the BOOK OF REVULSIONS----a hashish galvanized thing along the lines of the BOOK OF DANIEL. The very
best that can be said about John 8: 3-11 is that it is a parable manufactured
a few centuries "later" It is absolutely NOT historic. What IS true is that
such parables were very much USED by jews and some idiots like to believe
that such non historic stories------which jews call MIDRASH are actual history---
nope-------they are teaching tools. In order for a person to be executed in jewish
jurisprudence at that time-----he had to be tried by THE SANHEDRIN in Jerusalem----not by a gaggle of "pharisees" out somewhere in the sticks. ALSO according to the NT-----jews had absolutely no power to execute anyone-----even the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem could
not (probably not true-----but it is so claimed in the NT----probably to explain why
jews did not killed Jesus but FORCED "SAINT PONTIUS PILATE" to do it)

an interesting Factoid-----the Book of Daniel----is kinda---sorta ---considered so weird by jewish scholars for the past 2000 years that people are advised not to
obsess over it

 

[Pogo]

 

[Alex.]

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<


--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<


"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<


That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:


>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<


Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

the scum of the earth play the KORAN VS HADITHS game-----the real issue is SHARIAH LAW----that law determined by KORANIC SCHOLARS is that which
actually does define islam. Any time a person says or writes------"SHOW ME THE VERSE IN THE KORAN"-----that is a clear proof that he is a piece of shit

Actually that's proof that the burden OF proof is on the asserter. And when the asserter can't come up with it ---- poof... there goes perspiration odor.

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Pogo----you know nothing about shariah law or about hindus or about Sikhs-----your commentary is silly

Translation don't you dare challenge my myths with that 'evidence' and 'logic' stuff!

you have no "EVIDENCE" pogo------stoning for adultery is part of the LEGAL CODE OF BOTH IRAN AND SAUDIA ARABIA -----adultery being a crime that women do------not men-----just women. It may be part of the legal code of many other shariah shit holes-------I have no interest in researching the issue

I have made no posts on what which country's adultery laws are. I have no interest in that either. Somebody earlier posted adultery laws in the US, but that wasn't me.

I haven't been posting on government laws or religious laws. I've been posting on tribal customs.

Your post was about that, otherwise you would not have commented.

 

[irosie91]

Uh, no. That's absurd.
Where do you get these weird notions? Got a link?

Edit, reading back a post -- I see you do. From that link:

>> "It is one of the most brutal forms of violence perpetrated against women in order to control and punish their sexuality and basic freedoms."

... Stoning is not legal in most Muslim countries and there is no mention of it in the Koran. <<


--- both of which I've noted throughout. It's a cultural artifact to "protect family status" by brutally controlling women. That's exactly what I meant by hyperpatriarchy. It sucks, it's barbaric, it's subhuman. But it doesn't come from religion.

Continuing:

>> However, in other countries, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, stoning is not legal but tribal leaders, militants and others carry it out extrajudicially. "In Afghanistan, warlords are manipulating religion to terrorise the population for their own political ends. Stoning is one way of doing that," said Shameem, a human rights lawyer who is co-ordinating the Stop Stoning Women campaign. <<


"Extradjudicially" = 'outside the law'. Vigilantes, as I've been noting. And in the latter part of the paragraph, a terrorism device, also illegal, and neither of which is religious.

More:

>> Origins

Stoning has been used as a form of community justice throughout history in various religious and cultural traditions, many pre-dating Islam. .... The practice has been documented among the Ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers. It is also mentioned in the Jewish Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud. <<


That's your own link, confirming what I've been saying all along. Indeed the first time most of us hear about the specific practice of stoning is in the Bible -- "let him who is without sin" etc. And again, that's an event taking place six hundred years before Mohammad even exists, so by the law of linear time he can't possibly have invented it.

The rest of your link reconfirms the focus on obsessive control of women and more recently, stoning as a terrorism device, notably:

>> Many prominent Muslim clerics have spoken in support of a ban on stoning, deeming it un-Islamic and antithetical to the Koran's emphasis on repentance and compassion. Shameem said stoning mostly happened in conflict or post-conflict areas where politicians, warlords and militants exploit people's religious beliefs as they jockey for power. Mali saw its first case last year after Islamist militants took control of the north of the country. It is not clear why, in Bibi's case, the tribal court should have justified stoning as a punishment for owning a mobile phone. Shameem said stoning and the threat of stoning was being used "to control women, constrain their freedoms, and police their sexuality". <<

And note again the term "tribal court". That's an extrajudicial community body, like the
khap panchayats of India* that serve the same purpose. They're not a government body; they're not a religious body. They're a tribal body self-convened to give the illusion of a pseud-court. Not related to either the local government or the local religion.

* from that link:


>>The Khap panchayts frequently deliberate on social issues to attempt to combat social problems like female abortions, alcohol abuse, dowry, rape [15][16][17] and to promote education.[18] specially among girls[19]

The largest Khap in Haryana is the Satrol Khap, which allowed inter-caste marriage in 2014,[20] providing the marriage is not within the same gotra, village, or neighboring villages[21]

...The Supreme Court has declared illegal 'Khap panchayats' which often decree or encourage honour killings or other institutionalised atrocities against boys and girls of different castes and religions who wish to get married or have married.[25]

This is wholly illegal and has to be ruthlessly stamped out. There is nothing honourable in honour killing or other atrocities and, in fact, it is nothing but barbaric and shameful murder. Other atrocities in respect of the personal lives of people committed by brutal, feudal-minded persons deserve harsh punishment. Only this way can we stamp out such acts of barbarism and feudal mentality. Moreover, these acts take the law into their own hands, and amount to kangaroo courts, which are wholly illegal.
— Bench of Justices Markandey Katju and Gyan Sudha Misra.[26]

In his report to the Supreme Court Raju Ramachandaran, Senior Advocate appointed by the Court to assist it in PILs against Khap Panchayats has called for arrest of "self styled" decision makers and proactive action by the police to protect the fundamental rights of the people. It also asked for the recommendations being converted as directions to all States and the Union, till a law is enacted by the Parliament.[27] <<


Again, these khap panchayats are not affiliated with Hinduism nor Sikhism, nor are they sanctioned by or affiliated with their local or federal governments. They're tribal. Read the link if you don't believe me.

These are ancient social constructs that simply do not have a cognate in our culture. I know it would be easier to ascribe them to an avenue we're familiar with like religions but it just isn't the way it works.

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

the scum of the earth play the KORAN VS HADITHS game-----the real issue is SHARIAH LAW----that law determined by KORANIC SCHOLARS is that which
actually does define islam. Any time a person says or writes------"SHOW ME THE VERSE IN THE KORAN"-----that is a clear proof that he is a piece of shit

Actually that's proof that the burden OF proof is on the asserter. And when the asserter can't come up with it ---- poof... there goes perspiration odor.

Pogo, what country in the western world practices this type of "punishment?" Any? Why are you so protective of this particular religion but have no problem with talking shit about other religions?

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

Come on, only Muslims practice this barbarism nowadays. This is part of their Sharia law, so is indeed part of their "religion."

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Pogo----you know nothing about shariah law or about hindus or about Sikhs-----your commentary is silly

Translation don't you dare challenge my myths with that 'evidence' and 'logic' stuff!

you have no "EVIDENCE" pogo------stoning for adultery is part of the LEGAL CODE OF BOTH IRAN AND SAUDIA ARABIA -----adultery being a crime that women do------not men-----just women. It may be part of the legal code of many other shariah shit holes-------I have no interest in researching the issue

I have made no posts on what which country's adultery laws are. I have no interest in that either. Somebody earlier posted adultery laws in the US, but that wasn't me.

I haven't been posting on government laws or religious laws. I've been posting on tribal customs.

stoning is law in shariah law-------if you like to refer to shariah law as "TRIBAL LAW"----try not to do it in a mosque------some indignant muslim might slit your throat. It is clear to me that you never met a muslim and know nothing about islam. I will help-----muslim babies are taught from birth----that the only civilized and enlightened law in the world is SHARIAH-----and muhummad was an utter genius ------who was far more enlightened than any kaffir could ever be. Muhummad INVENTED the concept of charity and----virtually did away with slavery-----and authored the religion with the MOSTEST TOLERATION <<<< I have this
information from highly educated persons -----educated in the MUSLIM STYLE

 

[Pogo]

Too long, didn't read. It's obvious to anyone who hasn't been sleeping for the last couple of decades that Iran is a theocracy. Stoning and other such punishments are mentioned in their holy books.

the scum of the earth play the KORAN VS HADITHS game-----the real issue is SHARIAH LAW----that law determined by KORANIC SCHOLARS is that which
actually does define islam. Any time a person says or writes------"SHOW ME THE VERSE IN THE KORAN"-----that is a clear proof that he is a piece of shit

Actually that's proof that the burden OF proof is on the asserter. And when the asserter can't come up with it ---- poof... there goes perspiration odor.

No country -- and no religion --- practices this. That's my whole point.

This isn't being "protective of religion". I have no reason to do that. This is simply being protective of Truth. Which IS sacred.

Nope, wrong, and no, it isn't. Actual figures are hard to come by (many go unreported) but the two places where HBV goes on the most are India and Pakistan. That means among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and the nonreligious.

That's not a function of those countries' governments, and it's not a function of any of those religions or lack-of. It's a function of culture. And it always has been.

This site is nauseatingly slow right now so I'm not going to continue for the moment but I refer you back to post 18 (which has never been refuted or challenged) and note that HBV serves no religious purpose in any religion, because it's simply not an act OF religion but an act of cultural status and mores. IOW it doesn't do anything for the perps religiously; it serves a purpose (as they see it) socially. And I make the distinction because Anthroplogy is a particular area of study/interest of mine.

The attempt by the emotion-mongering gadflies to pin this on Islam (or Hiduism, or Sikhism, or national governments) only serves to take our eye off the ball of the real roots, which have to do with ancient cultural hyperpatriarchy. That's it comes from and that's where the change has to happen. Until it does, its ill effects will continue. In this and too many other ways.

Pogo----you know nothing about shariah law or about hindus or about Sikhs-----your commentary is silly

Translation don't you dare challenge my myths with that 'evidence' and 'logic' stuff!

you have no "EVIDENCE" pogo------stoning for adultery is part of the LEGAL CODE OF BOTH IRAN AND SAUDIA ARABIA -----adultery being a crime that women do------not men-----just women. It may be part of the legal code of many other shariah shit holes-------I have no interest in researching the issue

I have made no posts on what which country's adultery laws are. I have no interest in that either. Somebody earlier posted adultery laws in the US, but that wasn't me.

I haven't been posting on government laws or religious laws. I've been posting on tribal customs.

stoning is law in shariah law-------if you like to refer to shariah law as "TRIBAL LAW"----try not to do it in a mosque------some indignant muslim might slit your throat. It is clear to me that you never met a muslim and know nothing about islam. I will help-----muslim babies are taught from birth----that the only civilized and enlightened law in the world is SHARIAH-----and muhummad was an utter genius ------who was far more enlightened than any kaffir could ever be. Muhummad INVENTED the concept of charity and----virtually did away with slavery-----and authored the religion with the MOSTEST TOLERATION <<<< I have this
information from highly educated persons -----educated in the MUSLIM STYLE

Once AGAIN --- link? Quote? Passage in Koran?




Exactly. Spare me the empty ipse dixit.

 

[irosie91]

the scum of the earth play the KORAN VS HADITHS game-----the real issue is SHARIAH LAW----that law determined by KORANIC SCHOLARS is that which
actually does define islam. Any time a person says or writes------"SHOW ME THE VERSE IN THE KORAN"-----that is a clear proof that he is a piece of shit

Actually that's proof that the burden OF proof is on the asserter. And when the asserter can't come up with it ---- poof... there goes perspiration odor.

Pogo----you know nothing about shariah law or about hindus or about Sikhs-----your commentary is silly

Translation don't you dare challenge my myths with that 'evidence' and 'logic' stuff!

you have no "EVIDENCE" pogo------stoning for adultery is part of the LEGAL CODE OF BOTH IRAN AND SAUDIA ARABIA -----adultery being a crime that women do------not men-----just women. It may be part of the legal code of many other shariah shit holes-------I have no interest in researching the issue

I have made no posts on what which country's adultery laws are. I have no interest in that either. Somebody earlier posted adultery laws in the US, but that wasn't me.

I haven't been posting on government laws or religious laws. I've been posting on tribal customs.

stoning is law in shariah law-------if you like to refer to shariah law as "TRIBAL LAW"----try not to do it in a mosque------some indignant muslim might slit your throat. It is clear to me that you never met a muslim and know nothing about islam. I will help-----muslim babies are taught from birth----that the only civilized and enlightened law in the world is SHARIAH-----and muhummad was an utter genius ------who was far more enlightened than any kaffir could ever be. Muhummad INVENTED the concept of charity and----virtually did away with slavery-----and authored the religion with the MOSTEST TOLERATION <<<< I have this
information from highly educated persons -----educated in the MUSLIM STYLE

Once AGAIN --- link? Quote? Passage in Koran?




Exactly. Spare me the empty ipse dixit.

do your own searching-----in fact there are lots of muslims in the USA-----talk to one. I do not do the work of a law clerk. You could visit a mosque----not that
doing so will yield much-------I did it before 9-11-01 when the constant surveillance
began. SHARIAH LAW is on line-------it is the legal code of IRAN