CDZ A Strange Story

[william the wie]

I was reading a CNBC real estate desk story saying 800,000 people will leave CA and NY over the next 3 years. If I am not mistaken that is less than normal net annual out-migration for the two states combined. Can anyone make sense out of this story?

 

[Toronado3800]

I was reading a CNBC real estate desk story saying 800,000 people will leave CA and NY over the next 3 years. If I am not mistaken that is less than normal net annual out-migration for the two states combined. Can anyone make sense out of this story?

Probably just someone grabbing a stat too quick or using it to make a point hoping no one (like you) was analyzing what they were saying.

To beat my dead horse, CA makes the news alot for seemingly not having the environment to support more ppl, at least in the southern half of the state. If the population of CA would go down by 800,000 that would probably be a good thing.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

I was reading a CNBC real estate desk story saying 800,000 people will leave CA and NY over the next 3 years. If I am not mistaken that is less than normal net annual out-migration for the two states combined. Can anyone make sense out of this story?

How could anyone know that? I live in NYC and would leave in a heartbeat if not bound by family ties. The legislation is too overtly restrictive here, and I want more nature and privacy.

 

[william the wie]

There are lots of data points so you can make a better guess than what it seems. U haul rates to and from say OH/MS, ME/UT or FL/WA is one; postal order pairings is another; and new/lapse of homestead exemptions is a third.

 

[task0778]

I was reading a CNBC real estate desk story saying 800,000 people will leave CA and NY over the next 3 years. If I am not mistaken that is less than normal net annual out-migration for the two states combined. Can anyone make sense out of this story?

Here's the story from CNBC:

Conservative economists Arthur Laffer and Stephen Moore are predicting a new mass exodus of wealth from New York and California because of the new tax law. But academics who have studied taxes and migration call the forecast "pure nonsense."

In an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal headlined "So Long, California. Sayonara, New York," Laffer and Moore (who have both advised President Donald Trump) say the new tax bill will cause a net 800,000 people to move out of California and New York over the next three years.

The tax changes limit the deduction of state and local taxes to $10,000, so many high-earning taxpayers in high-tax states will actually face a tax increase under the new tax code.

Laffer and Moore say that the effective income-tax rate (what people actually pay) for high earners in California will jump from 8.5 percent to 13 percent. Wealthy Manhattanites would face a similar increase, they say. Those who make $10 million or more will see a potential tax hike of 50 percent or more, according to their analysis.

Those hikes, they say, will cause an exodus of residents to move to lower or no-income tax states.

"In years to come, millions of people, thousands of businesses and tens of billions of dollars of net income will flee high-tax blue states for low-tax red states," they said. They say 800,000 people will move from California and New York over the next three years. Connecticut, New Jersey and Minnesota will lose a combined 500,000 people over the same period.

Yet economist and sociologist Cristobal Young of Stanford, who co-authored the leading study on wealth and tax migration, calls the forecast "pure nonsense."

He said that California, New York and New Jersey have been high-tax states for decades and they still have the highest per capita concentration of rich people in the country.

"There is no correlation between the top tax state tax rate and the number (or rate) of millionaires in a state," he said. He added that the people most affected by tax rates are the "late-career working rich" and they are less likely to move because they are "embedded in place for a host of social and economic reasons," from the location of their companies and jobs to their social lives, charitable boards and customers.

Moore and Laffer say that 3.5 million Americans on net have moved from the highest-tax states to the lowest-tax ones. They add that high earners are the ones who have cost the states the most by leaving. Yet they fail to mention that very few of those 3.5 million were high earners.

What's more, the number of millionaires in those high-tax states is actually growing, not shrinking.

Since 2010, New Jersey has added 119,000 net new millionaires, for a current total of 3.3 million, according to the latest data from Phoenix Marketing. New York has added 305,000 new millionaires, for a total of 7.6 million. And California has added a whopping 730,000 new millionaires since 2010, bringing its total to 13.4 million.

That's not to say that rich people haven't left these states. They have. High-profile emigres like David Tepper leaving New Jersey for Florida give outsized publicity to the moves. Yet the high-tax states are also creating the most wealth — and more new millionaires than the number who are leaving. What's more, it's unclear that taxes are the chief reason for people moving from the Northeast to Florida.

And despite Moore and Laffer's claim that it's the wealthy who the most tax-sensitive and are leaving in greater numbers, the lower-earners are moving more – usually because of jobs or the costs of housing.

Young's study, done with Charles Varner of Stanford University, and Ithai Lurie and Richard Prisinzano of the U.S. Department of Treasury, analyzed 13 years of income data for all Americans earning $1 million or more and they found that only 2.4 percent of million-dollar earners move every year. That rate is lower than the 2.9 percent move rate for the broader population. They found that only 0.04 percent of millionaire earners move for tax reasons.

So yes, many millionaires will move because of the tax changes. But if history is any guide, the high-tax states will likely continue to create more wealth than they lose.

800,000 people are about to flee New York and California because of taxes, say economists


Since this is a projection of the future rather than past data that can be verified, it's open to question. Some millionaires might be so rich that they don't care, and others will move to avoid the higher taxes. I think that generally speaking there is an exodus from one place to another when taxes are raised significantly; the strength of the exodus probably correlates to the strength or teeth of the tax hike. Make it hurt enough and for sure the rich guys will leave. These guys employ tax consultants and lawyers to find ways to avoid as much of the tax hike as possible, and for some it may take awhile for them to sell out, pack up, and move elsewhere.

 

[william the wie]

Thank you, my problem is that I know many emigres from the left coast and northeast and they are practically all retired bureaucrats: cops, teachers and retired service. We get lots of former special operators in greater Jax because NASJAX hospital has an agreement with UF teaching hospital to act as a VA hospital. This is because of the high percentage of student doctors that go there on commitment/enlistment to avoid student debt. Doing their residency at Mayo being a real possibility is another big draw.

That being the case I really found the whole story strange.

 

[task0778]

Thank you, my problem is that I know many emigres from the left coast and northeast and they are practically all retired bureaucrats: cops, teachers and retired service. We get lots of former special operators in greater Jax because NASJAX hospital has an agreement with UF teaching hospital to act as a VA hospital. This is because of the high percentage of student doctors that go there on commitment/enlistment to avoid student debt. Doing their residency at Mayo being a real possibility is another big draw.

That being the case I really found the whole story strange.

I am sure the number of retirees leaving greatly exceeds the number entering those places cuz the COL is so damn high there. But states like CA and NY are a magnet for the up and comers who are entering the upper income brackets because that's where quite a few of those jobs and opportunities are: Silicon valley in CA and the financial nexus in NY. Some of them will leave as businesses depart for lower tax states, that probably hasn't happened quite yet but will over the next few years, which also means fewer upper income earners coming into those states too.

You can look at recent data but it won't take into account the tax changes that Moore and Laffer are talking about. It's foolish to look at income data over the past 13 years and assume the trends will continue as they are, people and businesses WILL move as a result of the Trump tax bill, to doubt that is to ignore reality. I couldn't say just how good or accurate M&L's forecasts are; I think on the whole they are right, businesses are going to leave the high tax states over the next few years, there's no doubt in my mind. But it ain't that simple to just up and move your business overnight to Austin or wherever, but it's going to happen. Be interesting to see data next year on new startups in CA and NY, and businesses moving into those states vs leaving. I'm guessing there'll be an upswing in the leavers and a downswing in the comers.

 

[william the wie]

Thank you, my problem is that I know many emigres from the left coast and northeast and they are practically all retired bureaucrats: cops, teachers and retired service. We get lots of former special operators in greater Jax because NASJAX hospital has an agreement with UF teaching hospital to act as a VA hospital. This is because of the high percentage of student doctors that go there on commitment/enlistment to avoid student debt. Doing their residency at Mayo being a real possibility is another big draw.

That being the case I really found the whole story strange.

I am sure the number of retirees leaving greatly exceeds the number entering those places cuz the COL is so damn high there. But states like CA and NY are a magnet for the up and comers who are entering the upper income brackets because that's where quite a few of those jobs and opportunities are: Silicon valley in CA and the financial nexus in NY. Some of them will leave as businesses depart for lower tax states, that probably hasn't happened quite yet but will over the next few years, which also means fewer upper income earners coming into those states too.

You can look at recent data but it won't take into account the tax changes that Moore and Laffer are talking about. It's foolish to look at income data over the past 13 years and assume the trends will continue as they are, people and businesses WILL move as a result of the Trump tax bill, to doubt that is to ignore reality. I couldn't say just how good or accurate M&L's forecasts are; I think on the whole they are right, businesses are going to leave the high tax states over the next few years, there's no doubt in my mind. But it ain't that simple to just up and move your business overnight to Austin or wherever, but it's going to happen. Be interesting to see data next year on new startups in CA and NY, and businesses moving into those states vs leaving. I'm guessing there'll be an upswing in the leavers and a downswing in the comers.

Thank you, my problem is that I know many emigres from the left coast and northeast and they are practically all retired bureaucrats: cops, teachers and retired service. We get lots of former special operators in greater Jax because NASJAX hospital has an agreement with UF teaching hospital to act as a VA hospital. This is because of the high percentage of student doctors that go there on commitment/enlistment to avoid student debt. Doing their residency at Mayo being a real possibility is another big draw.

That being the case I really found the whole story strange.

I am sure the number of retirees leaving greatly exceeds the number entering those places cuz the COL is so damn high there. But states like CA and NY are a magnet for the up and comers who are entering the upper income brackets because that's where quite a few of those jobs and opportunities are: Silicon valley in CA and the financial nexus in NY. Some of them will leave as businesses depart for lower tax states, that probably hasn't happened quite yet but will over the next few years, which also means fewer upper income earners coming into those states too.

You can look at recent data but it won't take into account the tax changes that Moore and Laffer are talking about. It's foolish to look at income data over the past 13 years and assume the trends will continue as they are, people and businesses WILL move as a result of the Trump tax bill, to doubt that is to ignore reality. I couldn't say just how good or accurate M&L's forecasts are; I think on the whole they are right, businesses are going to leave the high tax states over the next few years, there's no doubt in my mind. But it ain't that simple to just up and move your business overnight to Austin or wherever, but it's going to happen. Be interesting to see data next year on new startups in CA and NY, and businesses moving into those states vs leaving. I'm guessing there'll be an upswing in the leavers and a downswing in the comers.

There have already been a lot people commuting to change residency and that doesn't require a lot of goodbyes to things and people that matter to you. If you work in NJ, reside in PA and your wife likes to meet with her buddies to go to a Broadway show every month or so, the tax savings can still be substantial without much dislocation.

 

[Dan Stubbs]

I was reading a CNBC real estate desk story saying 800,000 people will leave CA and NY over the next 3 years. If I am not mistaken that is less than normal net annual out-migration for the two states combined. Can anyone make sense out of this story?

Here's the story from CNBC:

Conservative economists Arthur Laffer and Stephen Moore are predicting a new mass exodus of wealth from New York and California because of the new tax law. But academics who have studied taxes and migration call the forecast "pure nonsense."

In an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal headlined "So Long, California. Sayonara, New York," Laffer and Moore (who have both advised President Donald Trump) say the new tax bill will cause a net 800,000 people to move out of California and New York over the next three years.

The tax changes limit the deduction of state and local taxes to $10,000, so many high-earning taxpayers in high-tax states will actually face a tax increase under the new tax code.

Laffer and Moore say that the effective income-tax rate (what people actually pay) for high earners in California will jump from 8.5 percent to 13 percent. Wealthy Manhattanites would face a similar increase, they say. Those who make $10 million or more will see a potential tax hike of 50 percent or more, according to their analysis.

Those hikes, they say, will cause an exodus of residents to move to lower or no-income tax states.

"In years to come, millions of people, thousands of businesses and tens of billions of dollars of net income will flee high-tax blue states for low-tax red states," they said. They say 800,000 people will move from California and New York over the next three years. Connecticut, New Jersey and Minnesota will lose a combined 500,000 people over the same period.

Yet economist and sociologist Cristobal Young of Stanford, who co-authored the leading study on wealth and tax migration, calls the forecast "pure nonsense."

He said that California, New York and New Jersey have been high-tax states for decades and they still have the highest per capita concentration of rich people in the country.

"There is no correlation between the top tax state tax rate and the number (or rate) of millionaires in a state," he said. He added that the people most affected by tax rates are the "late-career working rich" and they are less likely to move because they are "embedded in place for a host of social and economic reasons," from the location of their companies and jobs to their social lives, charitable boards and customers.

Moore and Laffer say that 3.5 million Americans on net have moved from the highest-tax states to the lowest-tax ones. They add that high earners are the ones who have cost the states the most by leaving. Yet they fail to mention that very few of those 3.5 million were high earners.

What's more, the number of millionaires in those high-tax states is actually growing, not shrinking.

Since 2010, New Jersey has added 119,000 net new millionaires, for a current total of 3.3 million, according to the latest data from Phoenix Marketing. New York has added 305,000 new millionaires, for a total of 7.6 million. And California has added a whopping 730,000 new millionaires since 2010, bringing its total to 13.4 million.

That's not to say that rich people haven't left these states. They have. High-profile emigres like David Tepper leaving New Jersey for Florida give outsized publicity to the moves. Yet the high-tax states are also creating the most wealth — and more new millionaires than the number who are leaving. What's more, it's unclear that taxes are the chief reason for people moving from the Northeast to Florida.

And despite Moore and Laffer's claim that it's the wealthy who the most tax-sensitive and are leaving in greater numbers, the lower-earners are moving more – usually because of jobs or the costs of housing.

Young's study, done with Charles Varner of Stanford University, and Ithai Lurie and Richard Prisinzano of the U.S. Department of Treasury, analyzed 13 years of income data for all Americans earning $1 million or more and they found that only 2.4 percent of million-dollar earners move every year. That rate is lower than the 2.9 percent move rate for the broader population. They found that only 0.04 percent of millionaire earners move for tax reasons.

So yes, many millionaires will move because of the tax changes. But if history is any guide, the high-tax states will likely continue to create more wealth than they lose.

800,000 people are about to flee New York and California because of taxes, say economists


Since this is a projection of the future rather than past data that can be verified, it's open to question. Some millionaires might be so rich that they don't care, and others will move to avoid the higher taxes. I think that generally speaking there is an exodus from one place to another when taxes are raised significantly; the strength of the exodus probably correlates to the strength or teeth of the tax hike. Make it hurt enough and for sure the rich guys will leave. These guys employ tax consultants and lawyers to find ways to avoid as much of the tax hike as possible, and for some it may take awhile for them to sell out, pack up, and move elsewhere.

Just when you think you have them cornered, they dodge. Moving from NY is not strange its been going on forever. We had a Deputy Chief Insp retired and moved to Fla, he sold his modest NY house for 500 K bought a Fla on for 250 K and it was a expensive 4 bedroom. Worked for the Sheriff's dept for 54 K a year and was getting 67 K in retirement and did good. Should state he got Fla retirement after quitting .....This was back in 1970.