A few questions so I will know who I'm dealing with...

[toastman]

The answer for me is no , and I suspect everyone will answer that too, I hope

 

[toastman]

Seal, I have a really stupid question I've always wanted to ask you.

Why is it that even though you're online, there is no Green Light next to your username ?????

 

[sealadaigh]

why should the palestinian people be made to pay the price for events that occurred in europe.

i think also you need to get your "so what"s straight. on the one hand, jews claim they didn't resist the nazis because they didn't have any idea of the severity of the holocaust, or that there even was one...that there was something going on. on the other hand, you have people saying "so what" about jews being exterminated as though they knew.

"a "so what" is a bit simplistic, don't you think.

 

[Coyote]

By the way, if you don't like my questions, don't answer them. Nobody is forcing you to respond.

I actually like your questions - I think they are interesting. It would be nice to discuss them - if that is your intent.

I'm well aware of history but the question isn't why a homeland for Jews was needed - the question is what is meant by a Jewish State and whether it can work with a democratic society and government. It's not rocket science

I've already answered that question. If you don't like the answer, fine. But it does not change the fact that democracy is never an absolute. In the U.S., elected officials cannot enact a statute that violates the Constitution (our core principles). In Israel, elected officials cannot remove the core principles that make Israel the Jewish homeland.

I agree - a democracy is never an absolute. What are the core principlees that make Israel the Jewish homeland?

This is why my question about the "Palestinian right of return" is key. If Israel were to allow Arabs to move to Israel by the thousands (or millions) and establish a majority, Israel would cease to exist. Those who purport to believe that democracy is the only valid value on the planet might say "so what?"

I agree - agreeing to a "right of return" would be demographic suicide for Israel. There are those that say Israel's constitution and society are strong enough to withstand that but I am not so sure.

I don't think that democracy in and of itself is the only valid value. What I consider important is a system where all citizens have equal rights and protections.

We all know what happened the last time people said "so what" about the fate of the Jewish people.

I don't disagree with that but at the same time - that can't be used to perpetrate further injustices.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

But when you call me "arrogant" that's fine, right?

do you think all people should be able to form a state based upon shared religious belief and at the expense of people who had lived there for centuries?

Jews have lived there for centuries, so your question is a mere strawman.

 

[José]

Originally posted by reabhloideach
why should the palestinian people be made to pay the price for events that occurred in europe.

Now you hit the nail in the head.

For the last 60 years, the palestinian people have been paying the price of german racism.

It takes a heartless monster to support the state of Israel.

The world needs to find an alternative where the security of the jewish people and the rights of the palestinian people are not mutually excludents.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

I agree - a democracy is never an absolute. What are the core principlees that make Israel the Jewish homeland?

It is encompassed in the Law of Return, which was enacted to ensure that Jews throughout the world have the right to safe haven in the State of Israel.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

the palestinian people have been paying the price of german racism[/B].

No, the "Palestinians" have been paying the price of their own racism. When Jews lawfully began moving to the British Mandate of Palestine, buying land, and establishing residence, the Arabs reacted with violence. This created a circumstance that prompted Great Britain, through the UN, to divide the land.

None of that changes the fact that the Arabs were there AFTER the Jews, and the Jews never abandoned Israel - THEY WERE EXPELLED.

So why should the Jews pay the price of Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Crusader, Muslim or Ottoman racism? (and yes, I've left off a few)

 

[ForeverYoung436]

It's more than just once a year at Passover. Jews who pray 3 times a day, say it 3x a day in their prayers. It's said in every Grace-after-Meals. Jews pray towards Jerusalem, not Mecca.
Also, Jews have always maintained a presence in the Land, even when they weren't the majority or the rulers. For instance, the Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) was started in Sefad, a city in then-called Palestine, during the time when Jews weren't the majority or in control.
Furthermore, there are 4 fast-days that correlate to the destruction of Jerusalem. I can't keep 4 fasts, so I just fast on one of these days, Tisha B'Av, the most important of these. On that day, we sit on the floor all day long. You have no idea what Israel and Jerusalem mean to the Jewish people.

 

[Kondor3]

"...The world needs to find an alternative where the security of the jewish people and the rights of the palestinian people are not mutually excludents."

Not really; compared to the problems of the world, Palestine is a flea, and relatively unimportant in the broader scheme of things, other than it containing a variety of holy places which the Arab-Muslims stole at the point of a sword, centuries ago.

As Palestinian-controlled lands continue to shrink towards the size of a postage stamp, and as they continue to lob rockets at innocent Israeli civilians (and thus losing whatever small shreds of sympathy that they had in the minds of many throughout the world), they will eventually be obliged to pack up and leave and scatter to Jordan and Lebanon and Syria and Eqypt and Iraq and the like, and twenty years beyond that, they will have been happily forgotten by the rest of the world.

Any group of people who are willing to sit and rot in refugee camps and towns for 65 years without taking the hint and moving their families to someplace sane - any people who are willing to delude themselves for 65 years with sugar-plum visions of a Return that is never going to happen - just aren't playing with a full deck.

The world has grown bone-weary of these Losers taking center-stage when there are far more important things to deal with.

Accelerate the inevitable, scatter these Losers to the four winds, and be done with it.

 

[patrickcaturday]

"...The world needs to find an alternative where the security of the jewish people and the rights of the palestinian people are not mutually excludents."

Not really; compared to the problems of the world, Palestine is a flea, and relatively unimportant in the broader scheme of things, other than it containing a variety of holy places which the Arab-Muslims stole at the point of a sword, centuries ago.

As Palestinian-controlled lands continue to shrink towards the size of a postage stamp, and as they continue to lob rockets at innocent Israeli civilians (and thus losing whatever small shreds of sympathy that they had in the minds of many throughout the world), they will eventually be obliged to pack up and leave and scatter to Jordan and Lebanon and Syria and Eqypt and Iraq and the like, and twenty years beyond that, they will have been happily forgotten by the rest of the world.

Any group of people who are willing to sit and rot in refugee camps and towns for 65 years without taking the hint and moving their families to someplace sane - any people who are willing to delude themselves for 65 years with sugar-plum visions of a Return that is never going to happen - just aren't playing with a full deck.

The world has grown bone-weary of these Losers taking center-stage when there are far more important things to deal with.

Accelerate the inevitable, scatter these Losers to the four winds, and be done with it.

Every single one of the words that you have said could be said about the Jews except that it was 2000 years instead of 65 years. So who has a better claim to the land !!!

 

[toastman]

Not really; compared to the problems of the world, Palestine is a flea, and relatively unimportant in the broader scheme of things, other than it containing a variety of holy places which the Arab-Muslims stole at the point of a sword, centuries ago.

As Palestinian-controlled lands continue to shrink towards the size of a postage stamp, and as they continue to lob rockets at innocent Israeli civilians (and thus losing whatever small shreds of sympathy that they had in the minds of many throughout the world), they will eventually be obliged to pack up and leave and scatter to Jordan and Lebanon and Syria and Eqypt and Iraq and the like, and twenty years beyond that, they will have been happily forgotten by the rest of the world.

Any group of people who are willing to sit and rot in refugee camps and towns for 65 years without taking the hint and moving their families to someplace sane - any people who are willing to delude themselves for 65 years with sugar-plum visions of a Return that is never going to happen - just aren't playing with a full deck.

The world has grown bone-weary of these Losers taking center-stage when there are far more important things to deal with.

Accelerate the inevitable, scatter these Losers to the four winds, and be done with it.

Every single one of the words that you have said could be said about the Jews except that it was 2000 years instead of 65 years. So who has a better claim to the land !!!

Patrick,claim of the land is an over-discussed irrelevant topic if you ask me.
The land belongs to whoever is ruling it at any point in time

 

[sealadaigh]

and those jews who did maintain a small presence in jerusalem were by and large opposed to the mass in flux of european immigrants.

i do have an idea of what jerusalem and israel mean to some of the the jewish people, but the jewish people are a religion. furthermore, the prophets of judaism are the same prophets of catholicism and islam. i imagine there are places holy to them as well, and that is not the point.

but, speaking of what is important to people, you do not know how important the opposition to colonial enterprise is to the irish people, particularly british colonial enterprise. we fight it whenever and wherever it occurs, from kenya to las islas malvinas to india and the troops led by the executed hero james daly or south africa and executed hero major john macbride...and we made a small deviation from that from 1914 to 1967 about when we did support a jewish homeland...until we realised it was contrary to some of our core beliefs. the irish are the palestinians and the palestinians are the irish.

the british had no right in the world to give any part of the mideast to anyone. it wasn't theirs and if you want to talk about anti-semitism, the creation of israel fits that bill to a t. "those jews are a nuisance. let's shuffle them off somewhere and get them out of our hair...after they lend us bookoo bucks to fight the huns."

it is a religious state also, which is against my core belief in the principles of constitution of the united states of america...seperation of church and state. the thing is, my beliefs do not allow for much exception...what is good for white is good for black...or any kind of diety. you yourself in this post as much say that it is because of religious reasons that you believe in the state of israel...pray, pray, pray.

you know what too. i think the concept behind the creation of the state of israel runs contrary to most jews core beliefs as well, if expressed in general terms.

 

[Lipush]

Back to the questions: What is meant by a "Jewish State"?

Depends who you ask

 

[Lipush]

Seal, I have a really stupid question I've always wanted to ask you.

Why is it that even though you're online, there is no Green Light next to your username ?????

You can change the profile definition so it will be "invisible".

Just like I'm doing now.

 

[Lipush]

Originally posted by reabhloideach
why should the palestinian people be made to pay the price for events that occurred in europe.

Now you hit the nail in the head.

For the last 60 years, the palestinian people have been paying the price of german racism.

It takes a heartless monster to support the state of Israel.

The world needs to find an alternative where the security of the jewish people and the rights of the palestinian people are not mutually excludents.

"the palestinian people have been paying the price of german racism"

In that case, they should have done more to bring down their main Mufti, who admired Hitler and wanted to adopt the Nazi ideology himself

They supported the Nazis, so it's kind of "fates laughter" of some sort.

 

[sealadaigh]

the palestinian people have been paying the price of german racism[/B].

No, the "Palestinians" have been paying the price of their own racism. When Jews lawfully began moving to the British Mandate of Palestine, buying land, and establishing residence, the Arabs reacted with violence. This created a circumstance that prompted Great Britain, through the UN, to divide the land.

None of that changes the fact that the Arabs were there AFTER the Jews, and the Jews never abandoned Israel - THEY WERE EXPELLED.

So why should the Jews pay the price of Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Crusader, Muslim or Ottoman racism? (and yes, I've left off a few)

lots of people get expelled. the celts were driven out of western france, england. do they have a claim.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

the palestinian people have been paying the price of german racism[/B].

No, the "Palestinians" have been paying the price of their own racism. When Jews lawfully began moving to the British Mandate of Palestine, buying land, and establishing residence, the Arabs reacted with violence. This created a circumstance that prompted Great Britain, through the UN, to divide the land.

None of that changes the fact that the Arabs were there AFTER the Jews, and the Jews never abandoned Israel - THEY WERE EXPELLED.

So why should the Jews pay the price of Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Crusader, Muslim or Ottoman racism? (and yes, I've left off a few)

lots of people get expelled. the celts were driven out of western france, england. do they have a claim.

You tell me. You seem to be awfully concerned about the "Palestinians" who were supposedly expelled, so where's your line?

 

[sealadaigh]

Originally posted by reabhloideach
why should the palestinian people be made to pay the price for events that occurred in europe.

Now you hit the nail in the head.

For the last 60 years, the palestinian people have been paying the price of german racism.

It takes a heartless monster to support the state of Israel.

The world needs to find an alternative where the security of the jewish people and the rights of the palestinian people are not mutually excludents.

"the palestinian people have been paying the price of german racism"

In that case, they should have done more to bring down their main Mufti, who admired Hitler and wanted to adopt the Nazi ideology himself

They supported the Nazis, so it's kind of "fates laughter" of some sort.

get real. they supported the nazis? (actually, they didn't) al-husseini was largely unsuccessful in his endeavours...i think he had a small smattering of bosnian muslims he enlisted) not because of racism but because they were against british colonialism and the transfer of that colonialism to european jews.

my god, if there was all that much arab/islamic racism, how hard do you think it would have been to wipe out that very small but flourishing community of jews in jerusalem. most jewish people lived comfortably in the mideast, in fact, as a protected minority...until the advent of zionism.

 

[RoccoR]

José, Kondor3, et al,

It sounds so right, how could it be wrong?

"...The world needs to find an alternative where the security of the jewish people and the rights of the palestinian people are not mutually excludents."

(COMMENT)

This was the original intent. It was the meaning behind some of the controversial phrases in the Treaty, and in the Mandate.

"nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine" - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations (12 August 1922)

The problem is that the execution and coordination was not successful.

Even though the Allied Powers saw a need to find the Jewish Population a safe and security homeland; especially after the most embarrassing purge by the Germans in WWII (and the fact that very few non-Jewish citizens in Europe actually tried to save the Jews - although there were some heroic effects), the Arab had no affinity whatsoever concerning the Jews and their plight.

The assumptions that there would be a natural assimilation of the cultures, was incorrect; although the tone of the Jewish-Arab agreement of January 1919 would have suggested otherwise.

All necessary measures shall be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasant and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights, and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development. - See more at: Faisal-Weizmann agreement/Non-UN document (3 January 1919)

Not really; compared to the problems of the world, Palestine is a flea, and relatively unimportant in the broader scheme of things, other than it containing a variety of holy places which the Arab-Muslims stole at the point of a sword, centuries ago.

(COMMENT)

It may be the case that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict actually have some benefit, in that it artificially focuses radicals into one small area; thereby, not endangering the security of the surrounding kingdoms.

As Palestinian-controlled lands continue to shrink towards the size of a postage stamp, and as they continue to lob rockets at innocent Israeli civilians (and thus losing whatever small shreds of sympathy that they had in the minds of many throughout the world), they will eventually be obliged to pack up and leave and scatter to Jordan and Lebanon and Syria and Eqypt and Iraq and the like, and twenty years beyond that, they will have been happily forgotten by the rest of the world.

(COMMENT)

This is possible if the Israelis adjust the appearance they project.

Any group of people who are willing to sit and rot in refugee camps and towns for 65 years without taking the hint and moving their families to someplace sane - any people who are willing to delude themselves for 65 years with sugar-plum visions of a Return that is never going to happen - just aren't playing with a full deck.

The world has grown bone-weary of these Losers taking center-stage when there are far more important things to deal with.

(COMMENT)

I was having tea last week with an old Egyptian friend of mine. He made a very similar observation. It is not without merit. It is the primary reason that the US has to go around and seek financial aid and support (from Arab countries) for the Palestinians; and why the Arab countries just don't have an organized aid effort for the Palestinians.

Accelerate the inevitable, scatter these Losers to the four winds, and be done with it.

(COMMENT)

There are very few nations that want the Palestinian. It is an unnecessary headache for them that they are (unofficially) glad to see Israel contain for them. Certainly all the surrounding regional nations have had an opportunity to establish industrial, and economic programs for Gaza and the West Bank. All of them have the capability to negotiate lines of commerce in and out of the Occupied Territories, unhampered by Israeli restrictions to support economic, agricultural, and industrial programs to boast the Palestinian economy. But they don't want bitten either.

Most Respectfully,
R