A few questions so I will know who I'm dealing with...

[toastman]

Exactly.

There are no "correct" answers. If there were, we'd be having a kumbaya moment.

When you say there are no answers, what exactly are u referring to ?

I think she was referring to my response in post #70

ah, you're correct

 

[Lipush]

nonetheless interesting poll yet it doesn't even summon the conflict. its just too complicated.

 

[RoccoR]

HistoryBefore67, Coyote, et al,

Not that I know anything! But...

I think there are correct answers.

But they're not correct because I say they are correct.

They're just correct.

(COMMENT)

In philosophy there is this concept called: The "Principle of Sufficient Reason" (PSR). In the simplest terms, it says that there is always a rational explanation for every event, or that explains why some things happen, can happen, or cannot happen. You (or us) may not "know" what the answer is (the true explanation), but that there is always an explanation. It is very Sherlock Holmes-ish.

Most people will disagree with this, basically because it is the opposite of what you are taught in school, but when it comes to human dilemma, the theory of "what is right" and "what is wrong" does not exist. In cases of human dilemma (politics, the economy, the jury system, etc) the evaluation or judgment of what is "right or wrong" is determined by the outcome of the applied evaluation. And the idea of a mistake in the evaluation of a human dilemma is only as critical or serious as the effect it has on the outcome. If a mistake of judgment is made but results in no adverse impact of any consequence, then the evaluation was not "entirely" wrong. Thus, "right and wrong" comes in degrees (there are some answers that are more correct than others).

This is an off-shoot of the Bertrand Russell's (1872-1970) concept which essentially states that the evaluation is made, not for the sake of a definite answer to the question at hand, since no definite answer can be known to be "true," but rather for the study of the question itself.

The original survey, just as our friend "Coyote" says, has no "right or wrong" answers, unless it is evaluated in comparison to an outcome. It is a hypothetical. And the accuracy to an answer in a hypothetical is yet to be realized (somewhere still in the future). All we can describe today is its probability of occurrence.

Now I know I've bored you all to death, so I'll stop here.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Lipush]

One more question that some of us may see it in a different way then others (especially concerning Jewish posters).

What is Israel? A democratic Jewish state or a Jewish democratic state.

What is to be the main Character, the Pluralism and democracy or the Jewish values?

 

[RoccoR]

Lipush; et al,

It is not a democracy.

One more question that some of us may see it in a different way then others (especially concerning Jewish posters).

What is Israel? A democratic Jewish state or a Jewish democratic state.

What is to be the main Character, the Pluralism and democracy or the Jewish values?

(COMMENT)

Israel is a "republic;" via the Knesset.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[HistoryBefore67]

One more question that some of us may see it in a different way then others (especially concerning Jewish posters).

What is Israel? A democratic Jewish state or a Jewish democratic state.

What is to be the main Character, the Pluralism and democracy or the Jewish values?

It is a Jewish state, first, meaning that the Jewish people will always have the right to come to Israel and reside there. It is not a country founded upon religious law, however, as there are many forms of Judaism. So, in that respect, its certainly not a theocracy. Rather, subject to the defining principle (the Law of Return), Israel is a democratic nation. As such, its citizens (including, of course, Arabs) have the right to vote and elect representatives.

 

[Roudy]

One more question that some of us may see it in a different way then others (especially concerning Jewish posters).

What is Israel? A democratic Jewish state or a Jewish democratic state.

What is to be the main Character, the Pluralism and democracy or the Jewish values?

It is a Jewish state, first, meaning that the Jewish people will always have the right to come to Israel and reside there. It is not a country founded upon religious law, however, as there are many forms of Judaism. So, in that respect, its certainly not a theocracy. Rather, subject to the defining principle (the Law of Return), Israel is a democratic nation. As such, its citizens (including, of course, Arabs) have the right to vote and elect representatives.

That is the best description of the state of Israel that I have heard yet. Congratulations.

 

[sealadaigh]

that's what i call it when someone asks questions for the purpose of attacking someone who responds in an honest fashion but not to the liking of the person asking the question.

she said she wanted to know who she was dealing with? she shoulfd have said "i just have a few questions so i can attempt to rip you to shreds.

hey, i'm gullible and naive. i keep trusting people at their word and expressed intent, even pro-israelis initially....but if she wants to go all aggro, i can certainly accomodate her.

fuck you.

Well, I don't understand what the issue is here. There were 4 simple questions and everyone has different opinions so what makes your opinions the only correct answers?

i never once said they were, nor have i dismissed anyone else's opinion/answer as "irrelevant". she could have just stated in the beginning that any answer contrary to her opinion was irrelevant.

personally, i like people like her. her arguments won't win any over to her side but her manner will win people to mine. i don't think jews, as a cultural group, have come to understand such things, at least if this board is any indication.

 

[toastman]

One more question that some of us may see it in a different way then others (especially concerning Jewish posters).

What is Israel? A democratic Jewish state or a Jewish democratic state.

What is to be the main Character, the Pluralism and democracy or the Jewish values?

It is a Jewish state, first, meaning that the Jewish people will always have the right to come to Israel and reside there. It is not a country founded upon religious law, however, as there are many forms of Judaism. So, in that respect, its certainly not a theocracy. Rather, subject to the defining principle (the Law of Return), Israel is a democratic nation. As such, its citizens (including, of course, Arabs) have the right to vote and elect representatives.

Well said !!

 

[sealadaigh]

HistoryBefore67, Coyote, et al,

Not that I know anything! But...

I think there are correct answers.

But they're not correct because I say they are correct.

They're just correct.

(COMMENT)

In philosophy there is this concept called: The "Principle of Sufficient Reason" (PSR). In the simplest terms, it says that there is always a rational explanation for every event, or that explains why some things happen, can happen, or cannot happen. You (or us) may not "know" what the answer is (the true explanation), but that there is always an explanation. It is very Sherlock Holmes-ish.

Most people will disagree with this, basically because it is the opposite of what you are taught in school, but when it comes to human dilemma, the theory of "what is right" and "what is wrong" does not exist. In cases of human dilemma (politics, the economy, the jury system, etc) the evaluation or judgment of what is "right or wrong" is determined by the outcome of the applied evaluation. And the idea of a mistake in the evaluation of a human dilemma is only as critical or serious as the effect it has on the outcome. If a mistake of judgment is made but results in no adverse impact of any consequence, then the evaluation was not "entirely" wrong. Thus, "right and wrong" comes in degrees (there are some answers that are more correct than others).

This is an off-shoot of the Bertrand Russell's (1872-1970) concept which essentially states that the evaluation is made, not for the sake of a definite answer to the question at hand, since no definite answer can be known to be "true," but rather for the study of the question itself.

The original survey, just as our friend "Coyote" says, has no "right or wrong" answers, unless it is evaluated in comparison to an outcome. It is a hypothetical. And the accuracy to an answer in a hypothetical is yet to be realized (somewhere still in the future). All we can describe today is its probability of occurrence.

Now I know I've bored you all to death, so I'll stop here.

Most Respectfully,
R

i dunno...probability always interests me, not only as a math discipline but also as a an intuition applied to human behaviour. to many people forsake causality for a strict adherence to a belief in free wiill.

lol...i almost always get lucky in bars, but other than that, it's a curse.

 

[sealadaigh]

One more question that some of us may see it in a different way then others (especially concerning Jewish posters).

What is Israel? A democratic Jewish state or a Jewish democratic state.

What is to be the main Character, the Pluralism and democracy or the Jewish values?

It is a Jewish state, first, meaning that the Jewish people will always have the right to come to Israel and reside there. It is not a country founded upon religious law, however, as there are many forms of Judaism. So, in that respect, its certainly not a theocracy. Rather, subject to the defining principle (the Law of Return), Israel is a democratic nation. As such, its citizens (including, of course, Arabs) have the right to vote and elect representatives.

That is the best description of the state of Israel that I have heard yet. Congratulations.

that democracy is betrayed by israel's necessity to maintain their jewish religious and cultural hegemony.

not all people are fooled by what is going on with the settlements in the west bank. some of us see the underlying reasons for israel's actions there.

 

[Lipush]

Yes, this is part of the same "self definition" you want us to give the Palestinians, that you're in a hurry to deny of us.

We may want to maintain our Jewish cultural religious hegemony, and you know what? we have the full justified right to.

in a world where there are Dozens of Muslim and Christian countries, 1 country for the Jews, to be DEFINED as a JEWISH country, is completely fair game.

I don't get why the raised eyebrows!

 

[MikeK]

This is directed primarily to the anti-Israel/pro-"Palestinian" posters...

1. Do you believe that there should be a Jewish State of Israel?

2. The Old City of Jerusalem should be under (a) Israeli control; (b) Jordanian control; (c) Palestinian control; or (d) International control?

3. Do you believe that a viable "2 state solution" can include a "Palestinian right of return" to Israel?

4. Rocket fire from Gaza into Israel constitutes (a) terrorist activity, or (b) legitimate resistence.

5. Do you believe that the majority of those who consider themselves "Palestinians" support a "two-state solution" resulting in a peaceful coexistence with a Jewish State of Israel?

I am not concerned with the Israel/Palestine conflict. I feel it is none of my business and none of my Country's (U.S.) business. I am convinced that U.S. support of Israel has become an extremely costly and menacing burden to the U.S. and I'm aware of no reason to continue the so-called alliance. Israel is not an ally in the accepted sense of the word. It is a costly and troublesome protectorate which the U.S. has absolutely no need for.

I do sympathize with those good and decent Israelis whose hearts and minds are in the right places. If they wish to remain there under the constant threat of the entire Arab world but without U.S. support, I would wish them luck. But if I were among them I would get the hell out of there.

 

[Kondor3]

"...I don't get why the raised eyebrows!"

Because it is a Jewish region...

That used to be a Muslim region...

That used to be a Christian region...

That used to be an Imperial Roman region...

That used to be a Jewish region...

That used to be a pagan region...

It's like having your living room set-down in the middle of an eight-lane superhighway...

The pink-slip (deed or title) to the land has changed hands many, many times over the millennia...

Everybody thinks they own a slice of it...

But possession and control and power have the final say in the end...

And, from where much of the rest of the world is looking, The Holy Land is in good hands now.

More honest and sane and trustworthy hands than it has been in for several centuries...

 

[sealadaigh]

Yes, this is part of the same "self definition" you want us to give the Palestinians, that you're in a hurry to deny of us.

We may want to maintain our Jewish cultural religious hegemony, and you know what? we have the full justified right to.

in a world where there are Dozens of Muslim and Christian countries, 1 country for the Jews, to be DEFINED as a JEWISH country, is completely fair ga in modern times.me.

I don't get why the raised eyebrows!

you are not fully justified in doing it if it infringes upon or otherwise deprives others of their human rights.

i believe in seperation of church and state as my country was founded, in part, on those principles. some religious states, such as the vatican, are regarded as heads of a religion and are small and titular. there is also a difference between founding a state based upon a religion and recognising one that is alteady there. the other religious states that exist were formed by the indigenous people. israel was ormed by a migration of religious people.

what exactly is the "self definition" i want to give to the palestinians.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Its time for my self-evaluation.

As a new member of this forum, I started this thread to determine the general range of mindsets among the various posters here. I hoped that my questions would reveal these mindsets, not only by virtue of the specific responses, but also in terms of who would get their feathers ruffled by my questions and subsequent comments. My hope was to gain an understanding of which posters are pro-Israel, which are anti-Israel, and which are somewhere in the middle.

Based on the results, I give myself and A+ for this thread.

Thanks for the responses!

 

[HistoryBefore67]

We never left of our own will.

 

[toastman]

"...I don't get why the raised eyebrows!"

Because it is a Jewish region...

That used to be a Muslim region...

That used to be a Christian region...

That used to be an Imperial Roman region...

That used to be a Jewish region...

That used to be a pagan region...

It's like having your living room set-down in the middle of an eight-lane superhighway...

The pink-slip (deed or title) to the land has changed hands many, many times over the millennia...

Everybody thinks they own a slice of it...

But possession and control and power have the final say in the end...

And, from where much of the rest of the world is looking, The Holy Land is in good hands now.
More honest and sane and trustworthy hands than it has been in for several centuries...

XXXXXXXXXX

You are forgetting the fact that during the Zionist immigration, the territory was BRITISH controlled and they invited and encourages Jewish European immigration.
If the Palestinians have a problem with that, then their beef is with the British

 

[Coyote]

Its time for my self-evaluation.

As a new member of this forum, I started this thread to determine the general range of mindsets among the various posters here. I hoped that my questions would reveal these mindsets, not only by virtue of the specific responses, but also in terms of who would get their feathers ruffled by my questions and subsequent comments. My hope was to gain an understanding of which posters are pro-Israel, which are anti-Israel, and which are somewhere in the middle.

Based on the results, I give myself and A+ for this thread.

Thanks for the responses!

I was actually hoping for a good discussion...

 

[Roudy]

Its time for my self-evaluation.

As a new member of this forum, I started this thread to determine the general range of mindsets among the various posters here. I hoped that my questions would reveal these mindsets, not only by virtue of the specific responses, but also in terms of who would get their feathers ruffled by my questions and subsequent comments. My hope was to gain an understanding of which posters are pro-Israel, which are anti-Israel, and which are somewhere in the middle.

Based on the results, I give myself and A+ for this thread.

Thanks for the responses!

You can take that a step further and also conclude that the anti Israel posters are usually the worst Jew haters. Therefore proving that anti Zionism is the new anti semitism.