A Catholic Thread, if you please

[DGS49]

I live in suburban Pittsburgh, and our diocese is current going through the painful process of down-sizing, going from something like 180 parishes down to 45 or so. It appears that the consolidated parishes will get a new name (rather than adopting the name of the biggest surviving parish), and many of the "old" parish buildings will continue to be used for maybe one Mass over the weekend and the occasional other event.

Obviously the joint reasons are a shortage of priests and a slowly-shrinking population of people who actually go to Mass and drop a few shekels in the collection box. My own parish is thriving...dynamic priest, vibrant, growing parish, and a brand new "campus" of traditional parish buildings. No school, however.

The Bishop is taking some heat from people who are unhappy with their churches shutting down and having to consolidate with others, but the economics are undeniable.

While I'm a strong proponent of women and married priests, I will ignore that for the moment, since with Pope Frank in the Chair of Peter, these concepts are non-starters.

But I have a proposal to place before the Board. Rather than have a top-down "solution," with the Bishop picking the surviving parishes, why not throw it back at the congregations? Challenge each congregation (minus its current Pastor) to either present a viable plan for continuing in existence, or agree to consolidate and liquidate its assets. Then the priests would act as Free Agents to serve the surviving parishes as the arrangements can be worked out.

So for example, let's say there are 10 priests within reasonable driving distance of a certain parish church. The Parish contacts each of them and says, "We want to have a Mass at 1600 on Saturday, and another at 1100 on Sunday; make us a proposal." A priest responds, "I'll meet the Saturday obligation, but not Sunday, and it will cost you $500 a month. I will commit for the next 6 months." Or, "If you will provide me a furnished apartment, utilities included, I will do a Sunday 0900 Mass every week for the next two years, with four Sundays off for vacation."

You get the idea. The Parish has to keep the Church up, operating, insured, and maintained, and the Priest becomes like a visiting, compensated speaker. If the Parish can't get a priest for a given weekend, it sends out an email to the congregation, advising them of that fact, and they can find another church for those Sundays/Saturdays. This arrangement will greatly enhance the importance and power of the parish councils, and could even make the parishioners more invested in their Church.

Obviously, I'm over-simplifying, but I have the impression that many Protestant churches operate in a similar fashion.

As a side benefit, these parishes might even consider bringing in a "de-frocked" married priest on occasion, or - horror of horrors - a woman Episcopal priest (the theology is nearly identical). In effect, they could force the hand of the Bishops and the Pope on these issues - Conform or die!

Thoughts?

 

[martybegan]

I live in suburban Pittsburgh, and our diocese is current going through the painful process of down-sizing, going from something like 180 parishes down to 45 or so. It appears that the consolidated parishes will get a new name (rather than adopting the name of the biggest surviving parish), and many of the "old" parish buildings will continue to be used for maybe one Mass over the weekend and the occasional other event.

Obviously the joint reasons are a shortage of priests and a slowly-shrinking population of people who actually go to Mass and drop a few shekels in the collection box. My own parish is thriving...dynamic priest, vibrant, growing parish, and a brand new "campus" of traditional parish buildings. No school, however.

The Bishop is taking some heat from people who are unhappy with their churches shutting down and having to consolidate with others, but the economics are undeniable.

While I'm a strong proponent of women and married priests, I will ignore that for the moment, since with Pope Frank in the Chair of Peter, these concepts are non-starters.

But I have a proposal to place before the Board. Rather than have a top-down "solution," with the Bishop picking the surviving parishes, why not throw it back at the congregations? Challenge each congregation (minus its current Pastor) to either present a viable plan for continuing in existence, or agree to consolidate and liquidate its assets. Then the priests would act as Free Agents to serve the surviving parishes as the arrangements can be worked out.

So for example, let's say there are 10 priests within reasonable driving distance of a certain parish church. The Parish contacts each of them and says, "We want to have a Mass at 1600 on Saturday, and another at 1100 on Sunday; make us a proposal." A priest responds, "I'll meet the Saturday obligation, but not Sunday, and it will cost you $500 a month. I will commit for the next 6 months." Or, "If you will provide me a furnished apartment, utilities included, I will do a Sunday 0900 Mass every week for the next two years, with four Sundays off for vacation."

You get the idea. The Parish has to keep the Church up, operating, insured, and maintained, and the Priest becomes like a visiting, compensated speaker. If the Parish can't get a priest for a given weekend, it sends out an email to the congregation, advising them of that fact, and they can find another church for those Sundays/Saturdays. This arrangement will greatly enhance the importance and power of the parish councils, and could even make the parishioners more invested in their Church.

Obviously, I'm over-simplifying, but I have the impression that many Protestant churches operate in a similar fashion.

As a side benefit, these parishes might even consider bringing in a "de-frocked" married priest on occasion, or - horror of horrors - a woman Episcopal priest (the theology is nearly identical). In effect, they could force the hand of the Bishops and the Pope on these issues - Conform or die!

Thoughts?

The top down nature of the Church makes things like this difficult. I believe that early on in the Church's history in the US (colonial/post-colonial times) the congregation had more power and often were the owners of the properties, but currently Rome and it's designated proxies hold sway.

Married priests will happen before women priests, probably using the same system the Orthodox use, i.e you can be a priest and be married, but not a bishop.

 

[Likkmee]

The Catholic thread is over on the Onion in the dark web.

 

[Taz]

I live in suburban Pittsburgh, and our diocese is current going through the painful process of down-sizing, going from something like 180 parishes down to 45 or so. It appears that the consolidated parishes will get a new name (rather than adopting the name of the biggest surviving parish), and many of the "old" parish buildings will continue to be used for maybe one Mass over the weekend and the occasional other event.

Obviously the joint reasons are a shortage of priests and a slowly-shrinking population of people who actually go to Mass and drop a few shekels in the collection box. My own parish is thriving...dynamic priest, vibrant, growing parish, and a brand new "campus" of traditional parish buildings. No school, however.

The Bishop is taking some heat from people who are unhappy with their churches shutting down and having to consolidate with others, but the economics are undeniable.

While I'm a strong proponent of women and married priests, I will ignore that for the moment, since with Pope Frank in the Chair of Peter, these concepts are non-starters.

But I have a proposal to place before the Board. Rather than have a top-down "solution," with the Bishop picking the surviving parishes, why not throw it back at the congregations? Challenge each congregation (minus its current Pastor) to either present a viable plan for continuing in existence, or agree to consolidate and liquidate its assets. Then the priests would act as Free Agents to serve the surviving parishes as the arrangements can be worked out.

So for example, let's say there are 10 priests within reasonable driving distance of a certain parish church. The Parish contacts each of them and says, "We want to have a Mass at 1600 on Saturday, and another at 1100 on Sunday; make us a proposal." A priest responds, "I'll meet the Saturday obligation, but not Sunday, and it will cost you $500 a month. I will commit for the next 6 months." Or, "If you will provide me a furnished apartment, utilities included, I will do a Sunday 0900 Mass every week for the next two years, with four Sundays off for vacation."

You get the idea. The Parish has to keep the Church up, operating, insured, and maintained, and the Priest becomes like a visiting, compensated speaker. If the Parish can't get a priest for a given weekend, it sends out an email to the congregation, advising them of that fact, and they can find another church for those Sundays/Saturdays. This arrangement will greatly enhance the importance and power of the parish councils, and could even make the parishioners more invested in their Church.

Obviously, I'm over-simplifying, but I have the impression that many Protestant churches operate in a similar fashion.

As a side benefit, these parishes might even consider bringing in a "de-frocked" married priest on occasion, or - horror of horrors - a woman Episcopal priest (the theology is nearly identical). In effect, they could force the hand of the Bishops and the Pope on these issues - Conform or die!

Thoughts?

Money talks loudly in your church. I never realized that you'd have to bribe a priest to come and do a sermon. What you should do is close down as many churches as possible, then, when there's a surplus of priests, have them compete against each other to see who will offer his services at the lowest cost. You'll get one for the bag of peanuts their vow of poverty demands.

 

[HaShev]

I live in suburban Pittsburgh, and our diocese is current going through the painful process of down-sizing, going from something like 180 parishes down to 45 or so. It appears that the consolidated parishes will get a new name (rather than adopting the name of the biggest surviving parish), and many of the "old" parish buildings will continue to be used for maybe one Mass over the weekend and the occasional other event.

Obviously the joint reasons are a shortage of priests and a slowly-shrinking population of people who actually go to Mass and drop a few shekels in the collection box. My own parish is thriving...dynamic priest, vibrant, growing parish, and a brand new "campus" of traditional parish buildings. No school, however.

The Bishop is taking some heat from people who are unhappy with their churches shutting down and having to consolidate with others, but the economics are undeniable.

While I'm a strong proponent of women and married priests, I will ignore that for the moment, since with Pope Frank in the Chair of Peter, these concepts are non-starters.

But I have a proposal to place before the Board. Rather than have a top-down "solution," with the Bishop picking the surviving parishes, why not throw it back at the congregations? Challenge each congregation (minus its current Pastor) to either present a viable plan for continuing in existence, or agree to consolidate and liquidate its assets. Then the priests would act as Free Agents to serve the surviving parishes as the arrangements can be worked out.

So for example, let's say there are 10 priests within reasonable driving distance of a certain parish church. The Parish contacts each of them and says, "We want to have a Mass at 1600 on Saturday, and another at 1100 on Sunday; make us a proposal." A priest responds, "I'll meet the Saturday obligation, but not Sunday, and it will cost you $500 a month. I will commit for the next 6 months." Or, "If you will provide me a furnished apartment, utilities included, I will do a Sunday 0900 Mass every week for the next two years, with four Sundays off for vacation."

You get the idea. The Parish has to keep the Church up, operating, insured, and maintained, and the Priest becomes like a visiting, compensated speaker. If the Parish can't get a priest for a given weekend, it sends out an email to the congregation, advising them of that fact, and they can find another church for those Sundays/Saturdays. This arrangement will greatly enhance the importance and power of the parish councils, and could even make the parishioners more invested in their Church.

Obviously, I'm over-simplifying, but I have the impression that many Protestant churches operate in a similar fashion.

As a side benefit, these parishes might even consider bringing in a "de-frocked" married priest on occasion, or - horror of horrors - a woman Episcopal priest (the theology is nearly identical). In effect, they could force the hand of the Bishops and the Pope on these issues - Conform or die!

Thoughts?

Regarding the OP:
This is exactly why the church is declining.
You guys are worried about consolidation and downsizing and not the reason it has declined and how to change to fit the needs of your surrounding community rather then your pride of image or tradition.

My following commentary has been utilized successfully and recanted in many TV broadcast sermons by Pastors like TJ Jakes etc...in the case of RCC churches I would add that going through same sacrament rituals each week instead of lessons
1)does the community no good and
2)is a waste in that the bread and wine has been revealed/secreted and body/name/teaching ignored anyway, making rituals used to recognize said body and teachings obsolete (past due) and failed obedience means it was done all those ages for naught.

Start of commentary:
I'm sorry to say that the most of the church programs and policies are not aimed towards sound ideology or accurate theology, rather they chose to be aimed at promoting denominationalism over the enrichment of community spirit and promotion of human welfare. In fact, in the autobiography of
Benjamin Franklin, another Philadelphian like myself, he noticed the same things about his Presbyterian church. He said on page 92 in the Riverside Literature Series of his autobiography, that it seemed they were more interested in making people Presbyterian rather then good citizens.

Local churches especially in the inner cities are taking in the communities money yet they do nothing successful in stopping the crimes, excessive drug and alcohol use, separation of family, children getting into trouble, violence such as shootings, stabbings, and so on.

The church in addition to services should be promoting study groups, community interaction, forums for discussion and solving problems. They surely have the space for it.

Family counseling should be advised, as well as clubs for activities that are positive like cleanup or fixing up the neighborhood.

The church should be stimulating creative thoughts rather than suppressing them; encouraging constructive actions rather than creating destructive behavior. I have proposed that the new heads of the church should be more involved in having an eye or watch on community needs, such as by setting up spotters within their flock, letting them know what needs to be stressed - for instance, problems in the area needing special lessons addressing special issues and needs of the individual community.
Example: some communities have a high divorce rate, adultery rate, or crime rate, others have a high drug use rate or murder rate, and such that need solutions as well as concerned action.

Suggested activities:

Churches involving in mini polls to evaluate what people believe or know to get a feel for what needs to be stressed and taught.

Volunteer people in the flock need to be involved in creating programs for planing to offset any local problems and identifying and finding solutions or lessons based on those issues.

Example: if an area is getting run down and the poor or elderly can't afford to fix up dilapidated houses then people will organize and inquire about donated tools (paint, tar, plaster etc) and round up volunteers to teach others and to fix the homes of those who can't afford it, in the same time they can be helping teens in job training (like home repair) and

giving them their job experience as well as something that looks great on their resume.

It is advisable to do all these things by organizing talk groups, which can identify deficiencies, much like the PTA meetings or town council meetings.

Make reports of what's needed in the community whether its moral, security, clean up, repair, family issues, etc., and follow through on these reports.

Allow suggestions in making solutions for how these issues can be handled and met head on and if one can't be found then approach the other churches outside your area for advice and help on solutions to combat local problems.

 

[hobelim]

I live in suburban Pittsburgh, and our diocese is current going through the painful process of down-sizing, going from something like 180 parishes down to 45 or so. It appears that the consolidated parishes will get a new name (rather than adopting the name of the biggest surviving parish), and many of the "old" parish buildings will continue to be used for maybe one Mass over the weekend and the occasional other event.

Obviously the joint reasons are a shortage of priests and a slowly-shrinking population of people who actually go to Mass and drop a few shekels in the collection box. My own parish is thriving...dynamic priest, vibrant, growing parish, and a brand new "campus" of traditional parish buildings. No school, however.

The Bishop is taking some heat from people who are unhappy with their churches shutting down and having to consolidate with others, but the economics are undeniable.

While I'm a strong proponent of women and married priests, I will ignore that for the moment, since with Pope Frank in the Chair of Peter, these concepts are non-starters.

But I have a proposal to place before the Board. Rather than have a top-down "solution," with the Bishop picking the surviving parishes, why not throw it back at the congregations? Challenge each congregation (minus its current Pastor) to either present a viable plan for continuing in existence, or agree to consolidate and liquidate its assets. Then the priests would act as Free Agents to serve the surviving parishes as the arrangements can be worked out.

So for example, let's say there are 10 priests within reasonable driving distance of a certain parish church. The Parish contacts each of them and says, "We want to have a Mass at 1600 on Saturday, and another at 1100 on Sunday; make us a proposal." A priest responds, "I'll meet the Saturday obligation, but not Sunday, and it will cost you $500 a month. I will commit for the next 6 months." Or, "If you will provide me a furnished apartment, utilities included, I will do a Sunday 0900 Mass every week for the next two years, with four Sundays off for vacation."

You get the idea. The Parish has to keep the Church up, operating, insured, and maintained, and the Priest becomes like a visiting, compensated speaker. If the Parish can't get a priest for a given weekend, it sends out an email to the congregation, advising them of that fact, and they can find another church for those Sundays/Saturdays. This arrangement will greatly enhance the importance and power of the parish councils, and could even make the parishioners more invested in their Church.

Obviously, I'm over-simplifying, but I have the impression that many Protestant churches operate in a similar fashion.

As a side benefit, these parishes might even consider bringing in a "de-frocked" married priest on occasion, or - horror of horrors - a woman Episcopal priest (the theology is nearly identical). In effect, they could force the hand of the Bishops and the Pope on these issues - Conform or die!

Thoughts?

When the automobile was invented many horse breeders and buggy makers went out of business. Them's the breaks.

The only ones who survived in any form adapted to the new reality.

Maybe the church should find another approach to lure people into throwing some spare change at the priests?

Why not pitch the church experience as an authentic demonstration of the archaic superstitions of the past? Like a renaissance festival with wenches and mead and wizards in full regalia? At least that would be an honest form of acting.

Maybe the priests could tap dance for nickels? I'd toss a quarter to see that.

As it is not many people anymore are going for that eat a cracker for a nominal service charge now and you will receive eternal life just as soon as you die bullshit.

Read the writing on the wall. There certainly will be no place for such ritualistic trickery in the future.

 

[Votto]

Here is a clue, instead of wondering how to manage a shrinking church, why not try to understand why it is shrinking?

What say you? Why is it shrinking?

 

[HaShev]

Here is a clue, instead of wondering how to manage a shrinking church, why not try to understand why it is shrinking?

What say you? Why is it shrinking?

Information age, people now realizing that Santa Claus isn't real.

 

[JoeB131]

Here is a clue, instead of wondering how to manage a shrinking church, why not try to understand why it is shrinking?

What say you? Why is it shrinking?

Well,actually, the Catholic Church is growing, but it's only growing because of the influx of immigrants from South of The border. Meanwhile, White Europeans are either 1) Not going to church because the whole thing is rather silly or 2) Joining evangelical churches where they take all the superstitious crazy more seriously.

Combine that with the church being unable to get anyone who isn't a pedophile to join the clergy, and you have serious problems.

 

[MisterBeale]

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Here is a clue, instead of wondering how to manage a shrinking church, why not try to understand why it is shrinking?

What say you? Why is it shrinking?

Information age, people now realizing that Santa Claus isn't real.

Hey!

Put a spoiler alert when you announce that!

Next you will claim leprechauns are not real and neither is the tooth fairy...

Now to answer why the people are no longee flocking to the Church!?!

It is boring and today youth need something that will get their attention and the Catholic Church lacks that wow factor or that insperational speaker most of the time...

 

[MisterBeale]

Here is a clue, instead of wondering how to manage a shrinking church, why not try to understand why it is shrinking?

What say you? Why is it shrinking?

Information age, people now realizing that Santa Claus isn't real.

Hey!

Put a spoiler alert when you announce that!

Next you will claim leprechauns are not real and neither is the tooth fairy...

Now to answer why the people are no longee flocking to the Church!?!

It is boring and today youth need something that will get their attention and the Catholic Church lacks that wow factor or that insperational speaker most of the time...

 

[HaShev]

Here is a clue, instead of wondering how to manage a shrinking church, why not try to understand why it is shrinking?

What say you? Why is it shrinking?

Information age, people now realizing that Santa Claus isn't real.

Hey!

Put a spoiler alert when you announce that!

Next you will claim leprechauns are not real and neither is the tooth fairy...

Now to answer why the people are no longee flocking to the Church!?!

It is boring and today youth need something that will get their attention and the Catholic Church lacks that wow factor or that insperational speaker most of the time...

They look outright miserable, not a smile in the church.

 

[Avatar4321]

Here is a clue, instead of wondering how to manage a shrinking church, why not try to understand why it is shrinking?

What say you? Why is it shrinking?

Information age, people now realizing that Santa Claus isn't real.

But Santa Claus is real. He just died a very long time ago

 

[Meriweather]

Here is a clue, instead of wondering how to manage a shrinking church, why not try to understand why it is shrinking?

What say you? Why is it shrinking?

Does the brain control human decisions, or does the brain present possibilities for the spirit that dwells within the body to choose to follow? One thought is that all we are is brain and when the brain ceases to work, we cease to exist. The other thought is that while we are comprised of the physical parts of mind and body, the essential person/personality is spirit that moves on in its existence even when the body quits.

Do people truly take time to think this through and each arrive at their own firm conclusion? I am not sure they do. Since I believe in spirit, I have the same responsibility to care for my spirit as I have to care for my body. This means when faced with all the rubbish people on both sides say about scripture, taking the time (much as an archaeologist does) to sift through all the debris to ascertain the truth.

My thought that if religion is shrinking it is because first people don't take time to study the first question of brain only or both brain and spirit. Second our lives are so busy we have no time to be spiritual archaeologists and so call the whole thing off.

 

[Votto]

Here is a clue, instead of wondering how to manage a shrinking church, why not try to understand why it is shrinking?

What say you? Why is it shrinking?

Does the brain control human decisions, or does the brain present possibilities for the spirit that dwells within the body to choose to follow? One thought is that all we are is brain and when the brain ceases to work, we cease to exist. The other thought is that while we are comprised of the physical parts of mind and body, the essential person/personality is spirit that moves on in its existence even when the body quits.

Do people truly take time to think this through and each arrive at their own firm conclusion? I am not sure they do. Since I believe in spirit, I have the same responsibility to care for my spirit as I have to care for my body. This means when faced with all the rubbish people on both sides say about scripture, taking the time (much as an archaeologist does) to sift through all the debris to ascertain the truth.

My thought that if religion is shrinking it is because first people don't take time to study the first question of brain only or both brain and spirit. Second our lives are so busy we have no time to be spiritual archaeologists and so call the whole thing off.

I would say that although the Catholic church may be shrinking in the developed world, there are some churches that are growing. So why is the Catholic church shrinking and others growing?

As has already been brought up, the skeletons in the closet need to be dealt with, such as the scandals involving priests and children. That has really hurt the Catholic church.

I'm not personally Catholic, but the Catholics I know are not practicing. They usually say that they were born into it. For them, their faith played no practical purpose for them and so they simply let it go. That makes sense. Why would anyone hold onto something in their life that plays no practical use? Combine this with the fact that most know next to nothing about the Bible, and what you have is a group of people simply rejecting the robotic religion-like traditions within the Catholic church that has lost their focus on the Spirit of God.

 

[Meriweather]

I would say that although the Catholic church may be shrinking in the developed world, there are some churches that are growing. So why is the Catholic church shrinking and others growing?

As has already been brought up, the skeletons in the closet need to be dealt with, such as the scandals involving priests and children. That has really hurt the Catholic church.

I'm not personally Catholic, but the Catholics I know are not practicing. They usually say that they were born into it. For them, their faith played no practical purpose for them and so they simply let it go. That makes sense. Why would anyone hold onto something in their life that plays no practical use? Combine this with the fact that most know next to nothing about the Bible, and what you have is a group of people simply rejecting the robotic religion-like traditions within the Catholic church that has lost their focus on the Spirit of God.

Shrug. Other statistics note that while other Christian denominations are shrinking, Catholic numbers continue growing. In some areas and in some age groups. As we know, numbers can be easily manipulated. In any case, the Catholic Church has not lost her focus on the spirit of God. It is the people who have lost focus. Yes, twenty-five years ago, the media delighted in highlighting incidents of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church while ignoring the same abuse going on in schools, clubs, sports, families, and all other religious groups.

As a reporter, I object to this lack of objectivity, but as a Catholic, I praise it. Ultimately, It gave the Catholic Church the lead to clean up the mess throughout all of society--starting with itself. Unfortunately, the percentage of the number of incidents within the Catholic Church proved to be a lot smaller than the percentage of incidents in any other group. Families were--and continue to be--the biggest offenders. If I remember correctly, this is followed by schools, then youth organizations. The Church was NOT given a pass--nor should it have been. Unfortunately, the media--even today--seems all too willing to give the other segments a pass while keeping that microscope on the Church. Keeping the focus on the Church is okay--the Church should always be able to withstand such scrutiny. The media not also focusing on where the problem continues to exist is not so praiseworthy.

The Church will not frog march people into Church. All it can be is the proverbial inviting light on a hill. People can accept the invitation or not. A well-known parable Jesus told was about a king who invited a select group of people to his son's wedding feast. When those chosen (being very busy people) elected not to attend, it did not phase the king. He simply invited all others to come to the feast.

 

[JoeB131]

I would say that although the Catholic church may be shrinking in the developed world, there are some churches that are growing. So why is the Catholic church shrinking and others growing?

Because in the undeveloped world, the Catholic Church tells those people that using birth control is a "Sin" and they are going to burn in hell if they put a rubber thing on their cocks. So those places are horribly overpopulated, horribly poor and easy pickings for a church that promises you sunshine and puppies in the afterlife if you just obey them.

As has already been brought up, the skeletons in the closet need to be dealt with, such as the scandals involving priests and children. That has really hurt the Catholic church.

No, what's really hurts the catholic church is that it's still a Medieval institution. The sex scandals is just an symptom, not the disease.

 

[JoeB131]

Shrug. Other statistics note that while other Christian denominations are shrinking, Catholic numbers continue growing. In some areas and in some age groups. As we know, numbers can be easily manipulated. In any case, the Catholic Church has not lost her focus on the spirit of God. It is the people who have lost focus. Yes, twenty-five years ago, the media delighted in highlighting incidents of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church while ignoring the same abuse going on in schools, clubs, sports, families, and all other religious groups.

As a reporter, I object to this lack of objectivity, but as a Catholic, I praise it. Ultimately, It gave the Catholic Church the lead to clean up the mess throughout all of society--starting with itself. Unfortunately, the percentage of the number of incidents within the Catholic Church proved to be a lot smaller than the percentage of incidents in any other group. Families were--and continue to be--the biggest offenders. If I remember correctly, this is followed by schools, then youth organizations. The Church was NOT given a pass--nor should it have been. Unfortunately, the media--even today--seems all too willing to give the other segments a pass while keeping that microscope on the Church. Keeping the focus on the Church is okay--the Church should always be able to withstand such scrutiny. The media not also focusing on where the problem continues to exist is not so praiseworthy.

Bullshit. The Catholic CHurch was worse because unlike other organizations, it moved the offending clerics around and hid them without warning the parishes what they were getting into. A priest could confess to being a kiddy diddler, and they'd give him 10 Hail Marys and keep his confidences.

Come on, I grew up Catholic, and we all knew not to be alone in a room with a priest, because they were all a little weird. Our parents knew it too, they were just too afraid of the Imaginary Sky Man to say anything about it.

The Church will not frog march people into Church. All it can be is the proverbial inviting light on a hill. People can accept the invitation or not. A well-known parable Jesus told was about a king who invited a select group of people to his son's wedding feast. When those chosen (being very busy people) elected not to attend, it did not phase the king. He simply invited all others to come to the feast.

Here's the thing. It makes your Sky Man awfully needy, doesn't it? He needs to be worshiped all the time, merely doing good works and being a good person isn't enough.

Again, Jeff Dahmer confesses his sins and gets into heaven and Ann Frank burns in Hell for rejecting Jesus.

This is all sorts of messed up. Good thing I rejected it at an early age.

 

[Two Thumbs]

I live in suburban Pittsburgh, and our diocese is current going through the painful process of down-sizing, going from something like 180 parishes down to 45 or so. It appears that the consolidated parishes will get a new name (rather than adopting the name of the biggest surviving parish), and many of the "old" parish buildings will continue to be used for maybe one Mass over the weekend and the occasional other event.

Obviously the joint reasons are a shortage of priests and a slowly-shrinking population of people who actually go to Mass and drop a few shekels in the collection box. My own parish is thriving...dynamic priest, vibrant, growing parish, and a brand new "campus" of traditional parish buildings. No school, however.

The Bishop is taking some heat from people who are unhappy with their churches shutting down and having to consolidate with others, but the economics are undeniable.

While I'm a strong proponent of women and married priests, I will ignore that for the moment, since with Pope Frank in the Chair of Peter, these concepts are non-starters.

But I have a proposal to place before the Board. Rather than have a top-down "solution," with the Bishop picking the surviving parishes, why not throw it back at the congregations? Challenge each congregation (minus its current Pastor) to either present a viable plan for continuing in existence, or agree to consolidate and liquidate its assets. Then the priests would act as Free Agents to serve the surviving parishes as the arrangements can be worked out.

So for example, let's say there are 10 priests within reasonable driving distance of a certain parish church. The Parish contacts each of them and says, "We want to have a Mass at 1600 on Saturday, and another at 1100 on Sunday; make us a proposal." A priest responds, "I'll meet the Saturday obligation, but not Sunday, and it will cost you $500 a month. I will commit for the next 6 months." Or, "If you will provide me a furnished apartment, utilities included, I will do a Sunday 0900 Mass every week for the next two years, with four Sundays off for vacation."

You get the idea. The Parish has to keep the Church up, operating, insured, and maintained, and the Priest becomes like a visiting, compensated speaker. If the Parish can't get a priest for a given weekend, it sends out an email to the congregation, advising them of that fact, and they can find another church for those Sundays/Saturdays. This arrangement will greatly enhance the importance and power of the parish councils, and could even make the parishioners more invested in their Church.

Obviously, I'm over-simplifying, but I have the impression that many Protestant churches operate in a similar fashion.

As a side benefit, these parishes might even consider bringing in a "de-frocked" married priest on occasion, or - horror of horrors - a woman Episcopal priest (the theology is nearly identical). In effect, they could force the hand of the Bishops and the Pope on these issues - Conform or die!

Thoughts?

But I have a proposal to place before the Board. Rather than have a top-down "solution," with the Bishop picking the surviving parishes, why not throw it back at the congregations? Challenge each congregation (minus its current Pastor) to either present a viable plan for continuing in existence, or agree to consolidate and liquidate its assets. Then the priests would act as Free Agents to serve the surviving parishes as the arrangements can be worked out.

That's a nice idea, it won't happen though.

The church has been in control of things for centuries, and it won't give an ounce of power to the flock. (flocks are lead, not asked where they want to go)

good luck though.

and look out for your older members that want to attend but can't make the longer trips, a visit from a member would brighten their days.