Zionists Control You

[actsnoblemartin]

With all due respect to south africa, they are wrong about israel being an apartheid state. The apartheid started in south africa because whites hated blacks.

Now, 1 million israeli arabs, live in israel. Now, unless im really that stupid, they are muslims, the same as the palestinians. With that said, the only reason, palestinians in the west bank and gaza are kept away from israel is because they want to destroy israel using terrorism.

Your argument doesnt hold water. You are not a fool (not being sarcastic). I think your an intelligent, articulate man. I just think your in-correct. Sorry.
And as to south africa, I dont know if they hate jews or not, but I still think based on common sense, and evidence, they are in-correct as well.

As far as native americans, and latinos. Why should i live in the past?. The holocaust happened 60 years ago. I dont walk around calling myself a victim every day. So why should you or anyone else?

Im NOT calling you an anti-semite, because you are not acting like one, you saying things, that while i disagree with them , are actually quite intelligent.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin View Post
This is another tool, the anti-semites use.

Here is the problem with your theory.

Blacks were not blowing up whites in clubs, and pizza parlors, blacks were not saying, lets kill all whites.

The palestinians after being offered 95% of the west bank and all of gaza in 2000, decided the best response was a 2nd round of terrorism

There is no aparteid in israel. Your just an anti-semite looking for an excuse for your hatred, but I am much smarter then you pal
Are you kidding me? So, just because the method for violence wasn't a siocide bomb South African violence during the aparthied years doesn't count? HAHAHA! typical of someone who would suspend disbelief in order to believe bullshit as truth...

I guess these are all examples of jew hating antisemites..


The 30-member research team examined the nature and extent of violence during South Africa’s transition from apartheid rule to democracy. They focused on six areas: revenge violence and vigilantism, ex-combatants, foreigners (immigrants), hostels and hostel residents, state security forces, and taxi violence. The resulting series of reports, the Violence and Transition Series, comprises a set of self-contained, but interrelated, documents that explore violence between 1980 and 2000.
http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-45629-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html



One night soon after Jonathan Jansen returned to his South African home, a neighbor was shot in the head and killed.
"I was shaken the next morning," said Jansen, who received his doctorate in education from Stanford University last year. "In my 12th floor office, I decided it was important to take five minutes at the beginning of the day, close my eyes and get everything out of my system.
"Just then, I heard the sound of AK47s - 'rat-a-tat-tat-tat' - out in the street. I looked out the window, and eight young men were robbing a bank. I decided my idea was probably not going to work."
He was going to try again at lunchtime, relaxing over some newspapers. At 12:30 p.m., he returned to his Johannesburg office for a quiet lunch with a bundle of reading.
"But there, on the front page of the first newspaper: Five people were killed on the trains the previous day.
"It is extremely traumatic to observe the constant and endless sea of violence in South Africa. I want to attempt to unravel its causes," Jansen told an audience at Stanford's Bechtel International Center in early November.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/...10Arc2038.html



and the REAL fly in your ointment:


South African union joins boycott of Israel

Workers union representing 1.2 million extols CUPE Ontario’s boycott of Israel, which it calls ‘an apartheid nation.’ Union President Madisha: Atrocities committed against the Palestinians pale in comparison to those committed by the erstwhile apartheid regime in South Africa
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...260201,00.html


I know.. talk about a nation of jew hating antisemites!

I mean.. who would think that SOUTH AFRICA knows what the hell it is talking about regarding an Aparthied situation anyway? Must be because they want to throw a jew down a well or something!


now, resume your label machine since calling me an ad hominem and running away into the comforting arms of purposfully nieve American christians is about as deep as your ability to percieve this issue gets.


Anyone else qualify for free land according to some mythic burning bush realtors while we are at it? Can the mexicans and native americans hop on that bandwagon too?

 

[Shogun]

, they look for a reason to hate jews, to justify their hatred.
Name me one group in america that blows up pizza parlors filled with innocent children,
name me one group that attacks innocent civilians for no reason, because they want to kill the other ethnic group.
It doesnt exist. Nice try anti-semites, But im smarter then all of you put together.
As far as human rights go, The israelies have a human right to exist, which you wont admit, you do NOT support, because you only condemn israel, for so-called atrocities.
When you have a legitimate criticism, I'll hear you, till then, enjoy your s.s. uniform, and your american nazi party.

I take it Blown up abortion clinics would never count since Eric Rudolph didnt blow himself up? Or any NUMEROUS example of mafia violence? If your criteria is "one group attacks innocent civilians for no reason" then, for one, you are asking for a HUGE list, and two, your OPINION of "no reason" is just that: an opinon.

When did I ever say that Israelis DONT have a right to exhist? Ohhh THATS right.. It's OK for YOU to assume and generalize.. but if someone acts the very same towards a jew? well, we've established what your knee-jerk reaction is, haven't we? Agreeing that Israel has a right to exhist is NOT a blank check to treat pals like the germans treated jews. sorry if my answer doesnt quench you lust for death.

Hilarious that you both defend Israels treatment of pals and then call anyone a nazi.. Yes, chicken little.. You don't do your cause any service by being just as fanatic as those you see as enemies.

but don't let that keep you from typing the word antisemite at the slightest criticism of israel.. Chosen nations have a halo to polish, you know.

 

[Shogun]

"You are correct to a point, except, native americans werent expelled from the united states, just their land. If they would have been expelled from the u.s. they would have been sent to canada. But, I digress. Yes, what happened to the native americans, was terrible. Now about the latinos, they actually were kicked off their land. I dont see anything hateful, or mean-spirited about pointing that out. "

Probably because my intentions are neither hateful of jews,mean spirited against jews or antisemetic.. but, hey.. I guess when faced with opposition it is easier to demonize and kill off than open your eyes for a second, eh?

Indeed, if your logic holds then shouldn't we ALSO be making a serious effort to rekindle Native owned land AND, as a nation, not be bitching so much about mexican immigration? YET, we as Americans understand what it means to be summarily marginalized on land that has been our for at least as many generations needed to acclimate to the land and would be AS VIOLENT in the face of a percieved mexican invasion as the pals are since the mid 20th century. Pretend that Americans would act any different than pals after watching that good ole pulpy commie movie Red Dawn.



"Your actually wrong about that. when a man in hebron killed 24 innocent palestinains in a mosque, in 1994, I consider that terrorism, when the jews blew up the king david hotel that was terrorism. But, the jews also, blew up german trains and other things during the war, I dont consider that terrorism. Now, let me make my distinction very clear. If an israeli soldier accidently kills a palestinian civilians, that is not terrorism, because their was no intent to kill, but when palestinian terrorists target innocent men, women, and children, that is terrorism. You could make an argument, that palestinians targetting idf soldiers is not terrorism, i would disagree with you, but its not anti-semitic to say that because, its a logical argument. Their is a difference between being completely biased, and saying jews bad, palestinian good, and saying this policy is bad. I dont agree with the settlements for example, and I do not support any jewish civilian, committing an act of terrorism against a palestinian or a idf soldier purposefully killing a palestinian. You seem to think, that I agree with every policy israel does, and, that israel says so, it makes it right. On the contrary, i try to be as fair as possible, I admit my biases, but do you admit yours?. I simply think, israel has the right and moral obligation to protect its citizens from terroristic acts purposefully carried out by palestinians."


Oh looky.. I seem to have all of a sudden introduced you to the shades of grey that are PERSPECTIVES.

Quote me where Ive even insinuated jews=bad and pals=good. It is precisely this AUTOMATIC ASSUMTION that cripples your horse in this race. I have no bias. Im neithert pal nor jew and have no reason to hate either ethnicity. I don't deny the holocaust and feel for the humanity lost in ww2. However, the holocaust is NOT an excuse to marginalize pals or make excuses for zionism when the end result will be the same shoulder shrugging lament that we Americans ignore in our own manifest destiny history.

This is why your AUTOMATIC ASSUMPTION and knee jerk labeling is as funny and sad as it is.

 

[Shogun]

criticizing an israeli policy i.e. settlement in west bank, and gaza, and the occupation of the west bank and gaza. I would not say or think you an anti-semite to say america was once a terroristic state for slavery against black, its discrimination against irish, jews, gays, athiests. And sexual slavery, going on all over the world

Do you understand what im trying to say?

Israel is not perfect, but its not the devil either.

If America itself decided to put Italians in camps beyond security walls and severly limit an entire ethnic population I would be just as against Americas policies towards Italians. This isnt about some 20th century anisemitism. This is about finding common humanity and not letting a nation who has been a tormented people use their history of persicution as an excuse to treat ANOTHER ethnic population just as shitty. I don't agree with suicide bombs. I dont agree with cluster bombs. we can ALL rationalize behaviour as "defense" while ignoring any perspective other than our own. Israel didnt invent violent nationalism. Neither is israel impervious to criticism for blatant ethnic based nationalism that results in a system of obvious aparthied.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin View Post
, they look for a reason to hate jews, to justify their hatred.
Name me one group in america that blows up pizza parlors filled with innocent children,
name me one group that attacks innocent civilians for no reason, because they want to kill the other ethnic group.
It doesnt exist. Nice try anti-semites, But im smarter then all of you put together.
As far as human rights go, The israelies have a human right to exist, which you wont admit, you do NOT support, because you only condemn israel, for so-called atrocities.
When you have a legitimate criticism, I'll hear you, till then, enjoy your s.s. uniform, and your american nazi party.


I take it Blown up abortion clinics would never count since Eric Rudolph didnt blow himself up? Or any NUMEROUS example of mafia violence? If your criteria is "one group attacks innocent civilians for no reason" then, for one, you are asking for a HUGE list, and two, your OPINION of "no reason" is just that: an opinon.

Sir. I did use a knee-jerk reaction. Second. When I hear people like yourself speak, it gives off a tone of anti-semitism, even if your 0% anti-semetic, because, I see no criticism of the palestinians in your threads. Certainly, you can see, why I would have a knee-jerk reaction, or why someone would think your anti-semetic. At this point, i dont think your anti- semetic, i simply disagree with you. What i did ask you for, was one ethnic group in america, going around in present day 2007, trying to wipe one ethnic group off the map.


When did I ever say that Israelis DONT have a right to exhist? Ohhh THATS right.. It's OK for YOU to assume and generalize..

You are right, i assumed, but tell me this sir, how can i assume otherwise, if i hear no criticism of the palestinians?.

but if someone acts the very same towards a jew? well, we've established what your knee-jerk reaction is, haven't we?

I already admitted I knee-jerked sir.

Agreeing that Israel has a right to exhist is NOT a blank check to treat pals like the germans treated jews.

If you would have said, I disagree with how the jews treat palestinians, or the palestinians, are not treated fairly, thats one thing, but you were much more harsh then that sir.

sorry if my answer doesnt quench you lust for death.

I have no lust for death sir, and see, statements like that, may, rightfully or wrongfully make people think your anti-semetic, because, why would the jewish people have a lust for death sir?

Hilarious that you both defend Israels treatment of pals and then call anyone a nazi.. Yes, chicken little.. You don't do your cause any service by being just as fanatic as those you see as enemies.

Sir. I called you an anti-semite, which i am taking back at this point, because of the tone of your statements, which were all one-sided, against israel, calling israel nazi's and so on. You could have made your point, without being so mean-spirited in the first place. Let me give you an example of how you said what you said, and how you could of said the same thing, less harshly and no one would have called you an anti-semite. you way, america is a fascist nation, my way. I disagree with what america did to the native american and lations in the past. Both convey the same message. Its not a point of our all evil, and im all good, or vice versa. I think your a brilliant guy, I just think youre wrong thats all.

but don't let that keep you from typing the word antisemite at the slightest criticism of israel.. Chosen nations have a halo to polish, you know.

Sir, did i not say, i do NOT agree with the settlements. Are you having selective hearing?. Name a policy of israel you disagree with, not just israel is bad, israel terrorist, israel suck, then we can have an honest debate ok. and for starters, what would you do to solve this mess?.

Again, IM NOT calling you an anti-semite, im asking for a discussion here.

Im sorry i knee jerked, but i tried to explain how someone could see you rightfully or wrongfully as an anti-semite.

 

[Shogun]

"With all due respect to south africa, they are wrong about israel being an apartheid state. The apartheid started in south africa because whites hated blacks. "

Are you sure there isnt a fair amount of hatred going on in Israel these days? The hatred alone is not what caused S. Africas aparthied. It was a concern over the retention of POWER by whites who were threatened by masses with whome they did not want to share this power with. Hell, hatred alone has no legs unless paired with dominant authority. Why else do you think America has moved towards equality rather than authority based on race?




"Now, 1 million israeli arabs, live in israel. Now, unless im really that stupid, they are muslims, the same as the palestinians. With that said, the only reason, palestinians in the west bank and gaza are kept away from israel is because they want to destroy israel using terrorism."


...or because of a specific desire for the entire land that some see as a gift from god... that temple mount looks pretty damn tempting too, doesnt it? Regardless, the VAST MAJORITY of pals dont kill jews.. Yet, the VAST MAJORITY of pals are marginalized along ethnic lines. The FIRST mistake is destroying their faith in democracy by ignoring their elected government. What is more important? eventual peace or saving face long enough for American christians to look away from obvious human rights issues?




"Your argument doesnt hold water. You are not a fool (not being sarcastic). I think your an intelligent, articulate man. I just think your in-correct. Sorry.
And as to south africa, I dont know if they hate jews or not, but I still think based on common sense, and evidence, they are in-correct as well."


Well, we can walk away in disagreement then. I would imagine, of ALL people, that south africa might just know what an aparthied looks like. Perhaps you are too afraid to admit the sins of Israel since doing so will convey just another round of land conquering so relevant in the last couple of centuries. Regardless, it looks like a system of human rights violations to me and I would never put my fellow man in such conditions no matter their race.




"As far as native americans, and latinos. Why should i live in the past?. The holocaust happened 60 years ago. I dont walk around calling myself a victim every day. So why should you or anyone else?"

why should you live in the past? YOUR MAIN ARGUEMENT HINGES ON A 2000 YEAR OLD MYTH, for christs sake. THIS statement is chock full of irony since the very excuse for the creation of Israel is DIRECTLY related to living in the past. See how your position kinda bobbed and weaved there?




"Im NOT calling you an anti-semite, because you are not acting like one, you saying things, that while i disagree with them , are actually quite intelligent."


I appriciate that.... but.. thats not really how you came out swinging though, eh?



For what it is worth id give ANY state to the jews for a homeland in a heartbeat.. the key being that land being given away actually belongs to those living on the land being given up.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

"You are correct to a point, except, native americans werent expelled from the united states, just their land. If they would have been expelled from the u.s. they would have been sent to canada. But, I digress. Yes, what happened to the native americans, was terrible. Now about the latinos, they actually were kicked off their land. I dont see anything hateful, or mean-spirited about pointing that out. "

Probably because my intentions are neither hateful of jews,mean spirited against jews or antisemetic.. but, hey.. I guess when faced with opposition it is easier to demonize and kill off than open your eyes for a second, eh?

"I have said it now, and i'll say again, I apologize for knee-jerking, and in fact, I apologize for calling you an anti-semite, because frankly, I do not believe you to be one"

Indeed, if your logic holds then shouldn't we ALSO be making a serious effort to rekindle Native owned land

Yes, we should, i agree we that whole heartedly

AND, as a nation, not be bitching so much about mexican immigration?

That depends, every nation needs to have a border, but who knows, I have no idea how to solve mexican immigration, so you got me there lol .

YET, we as Americans understand what it means to be summarily marginalized on land that has been our for at least as many generations needed to acclimate to the land and would be AS VIOLENT in the face of a percieved mexican invasion as the pals are since the mid 20th century.

Americans, arent killing them off yet lol.

Pretend that Americans would act any different than pals after watching that good ole pulpy commie movie Red Dawn.

I havent seen red dawn, so i apologize that im ignorant of that. Listen, im all for a palestinian state, they can have the west bank and gaza for all i care, the only thing i want, is the disbandment of all islamic terror groups in israel/palestine, and they can have their country. Im not in favor, of beating, or mistreating anyone. Not iraqis, kurds, christians, or palestians, but your talking about two different things. Their is a difference between blowing up innocent men, women and children, and fighting the israeli army.





"Your actually wrong about that. when a man in hebron killed 24 innocent palestinains in a mosque, in 1994, I consider that terrorism, when the jews blew up the king david hotel that was terrorism. But, the jews also, blew up german trains and other things during the war, I dont consider that terrorism. Now, let me make my distinction very clear. If an israeli soldier accidently kills a palestinian civilians, that is not terrorism, because their was no intent to kill, but when palestinian terrorists target innocent men, women, and children, that is terrorism. You could make an argument, that palestinians targetting idf soldiers is not terrorism, i would disagree with you, but its not anti-semitic to say that because, its a logical argument. Their is a difference between being completely biased, and saying jews bad, palestinian good, and saying this policy is bad. I dont agree with the settlements for example, and I do not support any jewish civilian, committing an act of terrorism against a palestinian or a idf soldier purposefully killing a palestinian. You seem to think, that I agree with every policy israel does, and, that israel says so, it makes it right. On the contrary, i try to be as fair as possible, I admit my biases, but do you admit yours?. I simply think, israel has the right and moral obligation to protect its citizens from terroristic acts purposefully carried out by palestinians."


Oh looky.. I seem to have all of a sudden introduced you to the shades of grey that are PERSPECTIVES.

Yes, I understand, I am fair and biased, and i can be completely arrogant and fool of myself.

Quote me where Ive even insinuated jews=bad and pals=good. It is precisely this AUTOMATIC ASSUMTION that cripples your horse in this race. I have no bias. Im neithert pal nor jew and have no reason to hate either ethnicity. I don't deny the holocaust and feel for the humanity lost in ww2. However, the holocaust is NOT an excuse to marginalize pals or make excuses for zionism when the end result will be the same shoulder shrugging lament that we Americans ignore in our own manifest destiny history.

I have admitted, and will admit for the 3rd or 4th time, that i was wrong, and mis-guided to call you anti-semetic, I mis-interpreted your words and knee-jerked, i am truly sorry. I take responsibility for being a stupid moron, and wrongfully calling you and anti-semite, I do not think you are anti semite, and i apologize, beyond that, unless you want a pound of my flesh , im sorry i can give no more. In all sincerity, how do you define marginalize?. Do the jews, not need a homeland?

This is why your AUTOMATIC ASSUMPTION and knee jerk labeling is as funny and sad as it is.

I agree, and i said i was sorry.

what does this mean?

However, the holocaust is NOT an excuse to marginalize pals or make excuses for zionism when the end result will be the same shoulder shrugging lament that we Americans ignore in our own manifest destiny history.

 

[Shogun]

"Sir. I did use a knee-jerk reaction. Second. When I hear people like yourself speak, it gives off a tone of anti-semitism, even if your 0% anti-semetic, because, I see no criticism of the palestinians in your threads. Certainly, you can see, why I would have a knee-jerk reaction, or why someone would think your anti-semetic. At this point, i dont think your anti- semetic, i simply disagree with you. What i did ask you for, was one ethnic group in america, going around in present day 2007, trying to wipe one ethnic group off the map."


I didn't mention pals because they are not set up in a position of authority. They have no input on the reality of Israel. Israel will be there regardless of pal opinions at this point. If the situation were the complete opposite id be the first to question pal aparthied.

and, one ethnic group trying to whipe another off the map? uh, the entire 20th century of whites dominating blacks? Whites versus the natives? Why be daft to the reality of American history? Do you really think that natives reacted ANY Less violently to the manifest destiny that produced the United States? Whites intending to purge America of "illegal aliens"? Notice the common themes of ethnicity and power.



"You are right, i assumed, but tell me this sir, how can i assume otherwise, if i hear no criticism of the palestinians?. "

uh, because you don't like it when people stereotype your motivations any more than anyone else? The golden rule, dude. It is silly to require equal damnation when criticising one group dominating another. Is it equally valid to have to criticise the jews while criticising the germans for the holocaust? Natives and colonial europeans? Do you just want to hear how suicide bombs and missle attacks are bad? To me, that is a given. of COURSE scalping the white man is horrible. Will such a line of thinking help figure out the root cause of the conflict? It didnt when Americans were busy killing off the injuns....


"I already admitted I knee-jerked sir."

Thank you for admitting that. Ive had this arguement many times on other boards and some people wont even get that far. I agree that this is a sensitive subject. The internet is notoriously shitty for such conversations because you cannot look anyone in the eye and try to determine their motives or humor. Again, thank you. I will tone down my sarcasm.



"If you would have said, I disagree with how the jews treat palestinians, or the palestinians, are not treated fairly, thats one thing, but you were much more harsh then that sir."

I have a habit of using salt instead of sugar. Such is my hubris.
Ill apologise for any misunderstanding such has caused.



"I have no lust for death sir, and see, statements like that, may, rightfully or wrongfully make people think your anti-semetic, because, why would the jewish people have a lust for death sir?"


jewish people as a whole? not at all. individual jews? certainly. However, this is an example of the above mentioned salt instead of sugar and is no more necessary in debate than knee jerk labeling. Again, I retract and apologise.



"Sir. I called you an anti-semite, which i am taking back at this point, because of the tone of your statements, which were all one-sided, against israel, calling israel nazi's and so on. You could have made your point, without being so mean-spirited in the first place. Let me give you an example of how you said what you said, and how you could of said the same thing, less harshly and no one would have called you an anti-semite. you way, america is a fascist nation, my way. I disagree with what america did to the native american and lations in the past. Both convey the same message. Its not a point of our all evil, and im all good, or vice versa. I think your a brilliant guy, I just think youre wrong thats all."


brilliant but wrong.. ill take that

HA!




"Sir, did i not say, i do NOT agree with the settlements. Are you having selective hearing?. Name a policy of israel you disagree with, not just israel is bad, israel terrorist, israel suck, then we can have an honest debate ok. and for starters, what would you do to solve this mess?. "


for starters? I would make every effort to coddle pals like my long lost brother. why? because there are a LOT of hostile nations in the area beyond the pals who may have the hatred AND the power to eventually harm israel. If Israel can rise above skinned knees and give pals a reason to love israel instead of hate jews then not only is violence in israel solved but Israel would double it's population that want to keep Israel around. Israel would have to adopt discrimination laws equivilent to ours as long as we act like the big brother keeping muslim nations at bay. This is no different than a pair of children fighting over who gets to play in the sandbox. Finding a solution that creates a symbiotic relationship and remives the STARK ethnic lines will help. Perhaps this is easy to say because I am an athiest but there must be, at the minimum, the golden rule level of tolorance of dogmas too. Investing in palestine is an investment in peace... Hell, let their elected government function for christs sakes... Give them a reason to see that DEMOCRACY works. Why would they think so if their elected choice is laughed out of policy making because of bitterness? Seems to me voting is better than being killed. Just as the Kurds have decided to step into the 21st century, so too will pals that actually reap the benefits of peaceful solutions. You may say that im a dreamer.. but im not the only one.




"Again, IM NOT calling you an anti-semite, im asking for a discussion here.
Im sorry i knee jerked, but i tried to explain how someone could see you rightfully or wrongfully as an anti-semite."


Fair enough. You have a great evening, sir.

 

[Shogun]

there is a lag in this conversation...

please do not apologise again for I accept your apology and hope that there is room for a more considerate discussion on this topic tommow.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

How do you equate one nut in hebron?, with the palestinians teaching their kids, to kill all the jews and destory israel?. How can you consider israel an apartied state when, 1 million israelies are arabs. When israel only has the security fence to stop terrorism.

I dont understand you people. Not having the wall, will only enable the terrorists to destory israel.

Common sense hear, do you want the peaceful palestinians in the west bank and gaza, to just come into israel anytime they want so they can blow up kids, and women?

How are they supposed to be treated when , many of them act like animals, who want destruction and death for themselves and everyone else.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin View Post
criticizing an israeli policy i.e. settlement in west bank, and gaza, and the occupation of the west bank and gaza. I would not say or think you an anti-semite to say america was once a terroristic state for slavery against black, its discrimination against irish, jews, gays, athiests. And sexual slavery, going on all over the world

Do you understand what im trying to say?

Israel is not perfect, but its not the devil either.

If America itself decided to put Italians in camps beyond security walls and severly limit an entire ethnic population I would be just as against Americas policies towards Italians. This isnt about some 20th century anisemitism. This is about finding common humanity and not letting a nation who has been a tormented people use their history of persicution as an excuse to treat ANOTHER ethnic population just as shitty.

The problem here is the palestinians, let me explain. Even before israel was reborn, the palestinians, rejected the idea of jews living among them as equal citizens. Infact, many muslims countries today persecute non-muslims and women. Let us take a look at gaza, which was recently given to the palestinians. Gaza was used to sell flowers to europe. When the palestinians got it, they destroyed the green houses. Today, rockets are being shot from gaza at the israelies. Their has to be a point, where if palestinians wont stop shooting themselves in foot and wont stop attacking israel, (and i believe this point has been past), they must build a protective wall between them, and the palestinian, and the wall has already cut down terrorism by 90%. We may disagree, and thats fine. But, apartheid started in south africa started out of hatred of blacks, the security wall, started to protect jewish civilians against un-provoked violence. So, even if your right, that palestinians are being treated shitty, it is of their own doing, and if want to have a state, and be treated with respect, they must earn it, by first, dis-arming, and dis-banding all terrorist groups, and renouncing all terror, stop teaching their kids that.

I don't agree with suicide bombs.

good

I dont agree with cluster bombs.

I dont know what your referring too

we can ALL rationalize behaviour as "defense" while ignoring any perspective other than our own.

That is profoundly true. I try to put myself in the palestinian shoes, but it is very hard, because the palestinians had a chance at peace in 1948, and blew it, and time and time again, would rather die, then let a single jew, or non-muslim live in israel/ the holy land.

Israel didnt invent violent nationalism.

true

Neither is israel impervious to criticism for blatant ethnic based nationalism that results in a system of obvious aparthied.

I have to disagree, if it was true apartheid, why do 1 million israeli arabs live in israel?.

Honestly, with every post you write, you expose your understanding of the middle east much better, then when i first starting reading your threads, in short, I think your a very intelligent person.

 

[Shogun]

"How do you equate one nut in hebron?, with the palestinians teaching their kids, to kill all the jews and destory israel?."

Hate can be ignored by those who move beyond it if given a reason to WANT to do so.

Do you think that pals would teach their kids to hate israel if they didnt have a daily shitty lifestyle to use as a reason to feul such hatred? In fact, take the generational difference between what kids learned about varied ethnicity in 1920 vs 2005 for instance. Would you say that America is MORE or LESS prone to hateful violent outbreaks upon ethnic lines now that we enforce the equal application of the Constitution? What would be the reason for blacks to give a damn about an American Constitution if they were still 3/5ths of a whole person? Do you think hatred for whites was worse with blacks on the plantation or where blacks have a standing chance at the American dream? I'm part of the generation that flung off entrenched racism in droves while Archie Bunker was still talking about "spooks" on prime time television. I assure you that this nation would be a lot more violent if civil rights never happened because a portion of the population would hold no faith is the system of government. Those who feel hopelessly oppressed are quick to develop a martyr complex. Ive seen christian literature along the same rebellious lines regarding their percieved "mark of the beast on the forehead or hand" NWO paranoia. Give palestine a reason to play by the rules of democracy instead of giving them an excuse to become martyrs.



"How can you consider israel an apartied state when, 1 million israelies are arabs. When israel only has the security fence to stop terrorism."

ONLY has a security fence? could YOU live behind the wall and support your family? Was there no population of blacks in south africa? Did this have anything to do with the structure of power and who clearly dominated the hell out of it? Refugee camps and bulldozed houses to make way for jewish settlements don't sooth the wound either.


"I dont understand you people. Not having the wall, will only enable the terrorists to destory israel. "

with all do respect, bullshit. an exponential increase in rockets AND suicide bombs is not going to wipe israel off of the map. The mellowdrama is a bit thick, yes? How about dragging the wall BACK into Israeli lands instead of itching what the pals bring up CONSTANTLY as their perception of squatted land being snatched by the wall in the first place? Israel adds insult to injury by rationalizing more land acording to the needs of jewish settlers. THIS should end immedietly. All the wall does is become a physicial manifestation of the percieved marginalization. Again, would YOU want to live behind the wall and face constant restriction by a german?




"Common sense hear, do you want the peaceful palestinians in the west bank and gaza, to just come into israel anytime they want so they can blow up kids, and women?"

stereotyping again. tsk tsk tsk.. That won't get you anywhere. I don't want jews blown up any more than I want pals scraped out of their homes by a jewish 'dozer making way for more jewish immigrants. Again, if pals are given a reason to want to play......



"How are they supposed to be treated when , many of them act like animals, who want destruction and death for themselves and everyone else."


Many could say the same thing about a jew hellbent on preseving israel NO MATTER THE COST... lest I remind you of the Arson that hit the jew who DARED to shake hands with the iranian pres? Is this not the act of an animal? Remove the reason for the martyr complex and youll remove the excuse for violence. Jews arent the only people to have lost loved ones. The dead babies are not ALL jewish. Pals bleed too. Am I asking anything more than was asked of 20th century whites who were convinced that blacks were savage and injuns before that?

 

[actsnoblemartin]

With all due respect to south africa, they are wrong about israel being an apartheid state. The apartheid started in south africa because whites hated blacks. "

Are you sure there isnt a fair amount of hatred going on in Israel these days?

To be fair, im sure their is amount of hatred in israel, as within any country. But i dont condone hatred. I myself, try very hard not to judge others, and to not be prejudice. I try to have friends of different races, politics, religions, so i can gain perspectice.

The hatred alone is not what caused S. Africas aparthied. It was a concern over the retention of POWER by whites who were threatened by masses with whome they did not want to share this power with. Hell, hatred alone has no legs unless paired with dominant authority.

Yes, that was true

Why else do you think America has moved towards equality rather than authority based on race?

I really dont know



"Now, 1 million israeli arabs, live in israel. Now, unless im really that stupid, they are muslims, the same as the palestinians. With that said, the only reason, palestinians in the west bank and gaza are kept away from israel is because they want to destroy israel using terrorism."


...or because of a specific desire for the entire land that some see as a gift from god... that temple mount looks pretty damn tempting too, doesnt it? Regardless, the VAST MAJORITY of pals dont kill jews.. Yet, the VAST MAJORITY of pals are marginalized along ethnic lines. The FIRST mistake is destroying their faith in democracy by ignoring their elected government. What is more important? eventual peace or saving face long enough for American christians to look away from obvious human rights issues?

Interesting thing about the temple mount, didnt the muslims built, their dome over it, did they not?. Oh, i am not sure, what percentage of palestinians kill jews, but ill concede the point and say most dont. How, do you believe the jews are destroying their faith?. Peace is the most important, but security is most important overall is it not?. I think human rights its an important issue. Im not sure how i feel about my government ( i assume you live in usa?). torturing people.






"Your argument doesnt hold water. You are not a fool (not being sarcastic). I think your an intelligent, articulate man. I just think your in-correct. Sorry.
And as to south africa, I dont know if they hate jews or not, but I still think based on common sense, and evidence, they are in-correct as well."


Well, we can walk away in disagreement then. I would imagine, of ALL people, that south africa might just know what an aparthied looks like.

The people in south africa, do know what apartheid is, but my question to you, is, were the blacks trying to destory the whites, I mean, kill all the whites, or push them into the sea?.

Perhaps you are too afraid to admit the sins of Israel since doing so will convey just another round of land conquering so relevant in the last couple of centuries.

Perhaps your right , it is very hard to admit, when your wrong, I think you would agree with me there, but honestly i do not believe israel stole the land from the palestinians, since the land was jews, 2,000 years ago, and the arabs never owned palestine, but too be honest,the land really doesnt belong to the jews or the palestinians, it belong to jews, arabs, and christians. You could probably argue for a 3 state solution lol.

Regardless, it looks like a system of human rights violations to me and I would never put my fellow man in such conditions no matter their race.

I am having a hard time understanding, what exactly is going on, do you care to explain to me?. Im not being sarcastic. And let me ask you, if you could not board a bus, go to pizza hut, or go out of your house, without fear of being killed, would you atleast concede your might, keyword, might build a security fence to protect your future kids, or family or whatever. Just a question, my friend, if you dont mind me calling you such. I am martin, pleasure to make your acquaintance.




"As far as native americans, and latinos. Why should i live in the past?. The holocaust happened 60 years ago. I dont walk around calling myself a victim every day. So why should you or anyone else?"

why should you live in the past? YOUR MAIN ARGUEMENT HINGES ON A 2000 YEAR OLD MYTH, for christs sake.

Aww, your half right. But it was not a myth, you see, israel did exist 2,000 year ago, and before that, their was the canonites, (cant spell) and who knows before then. Now, your argument, could be, so what, the pals, were there in 1947, but i would still say the jews, lived there too, and had the right to a homeland, and if the shoe were on the other foot, id expect the jews to share with anyone who endured such terrible hardships. Besides when i say past, i mean, i dont wanna walk around all day, saying, f*** germany and germans, and/or poles or whatever. Even america did little to help my people. I dont wanna be victim.

Now let me ask you, we both have a house, we're neigbors, your wife is raped and killed, and its only you left, and your enemy now lives in your house, should i let you in mine, or tell u to f*** off?. I guess (no offense) that all those jews who survived didnt deserve the homeland that was stolen from them, they should just go back to the place where their people were gasses, and their babies were smashed against trees.

THIS statement is chock full of irony since the very excuse for the creation of Israel is DIRECTLY related to living in the past. See how your position kinda bobbed and weaved there?

I am not a stick in the mudd person, my points of view change, sometimes alot, am i not allowed to change my mind?.




"Im NOT calling you an anti-semite, because you are not acting like one, you saying things, that while i disagree with them , are actually quite intelligent."


I appriciate that.... but.. thats not really how you came out swinging though, eh?

I apologize for that, i took it back, unless you wanna kill me lol, their is nothing more i can do, accept say, im a f***ing fool for that. sorry


For what it is worth id give ANY state to the jews for a homeland in a heartbeat.. the key being that land being given away actually belongs to those living on the land being given up.

For what its worth, while i biased towards israel, I can somewhat sympathize with the palestinians, look at all the other muslim nations, they use the palestinian as pawns, for leverage against israel. They let them live in squalor. I am not happy, about palestinians having 18,000 check points, but the terrorism needs to stop. I can feel for someone i disagree with.

so, since we're both making a good faith effort to be fair and honest

can we be friends?

 

[actsnoblemartin]

How do you equate one nut in hebron?, with the palestinians teaching their kids, to kill all the jews and destory israel?."

Hate can be ignored by those who move beyond it if given a reason to WANT to do so.

True

Do you think that pals would teach their kids to hate israel if they didnt have a daily shitty lifestyle to use as a reason to feul such hatred?

I would point out to you though, that poverty does not fuel terrorism though, because the 9/11 highjackers were not poor. However, I do see your point, and I am all in favor, of making palestinians lives better.

In fact, take the generational difference between what kids learned about varied ethnicity in 1920 vs 2005 for instance. Would you say that America is MORE or LESS prone to hateful violent outbreaks upon ethnic lines now that we enforce the equal application of the Constitution?

Actually, im not sure, because to be honest, latinos and blacks, seem to hate each other, and i cant understand racism. Its like a mental illness.

What would be the reason for blacks to give a damn about an American Constitution if they were still 3/5ths of a whole person?

To be honest, No reason at all.

Do you think hatred for whites was worse with blacks on the plantation or where blacks have a standing chance at the American dream?

Blacks on the plantation

I'm part of the generation that flung off entrenched racism in droves while Archie Bunker was still talking about "spooks" on prime time television. I assure you that this nation would be a lot more violent if civil rights never happened because a portion of the population would hold no faith is the system of government.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Those who feel hopelessly oppressed are quick to develop a martyr complex. Ive seen christian literature along the same rebellious lines regarding their percieved "mark of the beast on the forehead or hand" NWO paranoia. Give palestine a reason to play by the rules of democracy instead of giving them an excuse to become martyrs.

I agree with that.



"How can you consider israel an apartied state when, 1 million israelies are arabs. When israel only has the security fence to stop terrorism."

ONLY has a security fence? could YOU live behind the wall and support your family?

How can their be an economy, if terrorism is abundant?, are we arguing which came first the chicken or the egg lol.

Was there no population of blacks in south africa? Did this have anything to do with the structure of power and who clearly dominated the hell out of it?

But the key difference difference is, how many wars have the blacks fault in south africa to destroy the whites?. During apartheid, did any blacks live with whites?. Palestinians have power in gaza, and look what is happening, israel can only enable palestinians to do the right thing, but if they dont choose it, israel cannot save them from themselves. Meaning, greenhouses were left, to help the palestinian economy, and they were destroyed.

Refugee camps and bulldozed houses to make way for jewish settlements don't sooth the wound either.

I dont agree with the settlements. I would take them all down, Furthermore, israel has offered to pay palestinians for land, and has tried land for peace, and both have failed, so what do you suggest they try next?. Who should pay to make the camps nicer?


"I dont understand you people. Not having the wall, will only enable the terrorists to destory israel. "

with all do respect, bullshit. an exponential increase in rockets AND suicide bombs is not going to wipe israel off of the map. The mellowdrama is a bit thick, yes?

I am dramatic yes, but consider this. If the u.s. didnt bail out israel, because israels economy is it the toilet, because of these attacks. The terrorists would win. Because of the wall, the rate of terrorism has been cut substantially.

How about dragging the wall BACK into Israeli lands instead of itching what the pals bring up CONSTANTLY as their perception of squatted land being snatched by the wall in the first place?

what do you mean here?

Israel adds insult to injury by rationalizing more land acording to the needs of jewish settlers. THIS should end immedietly. All the wall does is become a physicial manifestation of the percieved marginalization. Again, would YOU want to live behind the wall and face constant restriction by a german?

Ah, your talking about, how israel, is not using the wall just for security, but using it as a land grab?. I would agree, get rid of the settlers, and let the palestians run the west bank, then they have no more excuses, they cant blame the jew, or the west, if they fail. I see your point, but give me a better way the israeli, can protect himself against terrorism.




"Common sense hear, do you want the peaceful palestinians in the west bank and gaza, to just come into israel anytime they want so they can blow up kids, and women?"

stereotyping again. tsk tsk tsk.. That won't get you anywhere. I don't want jews blown up any more than I want pals scraped out of their homes by a jewish 'dozer making way for more jewish immigrants. Again, if pals are given a reason to want to play......

we agree here. I should not sterio-type. and I dont want pals home destroyed to make ways for settlers either. I want to give pals a reason to play, but if they dont play, then they must be held accountable for their actions



"How are they supposed to be treated when , many of them act like animals, who want destruction and death for themselves and everyone else."


Many could say the same thing about a jew hellbent on preseving israel NO MATTER THE COST

If israel falls, every jew will be slaughtered, and it would be a 2nd holocaust

... lest I remind you of the Arson that hit the jew who DARED to shake hands with the iranian pres?

I did not hear of this

Is this not the act of an animal?

arsonists and criminals comes in all shapes , yes i know

Remove the reason for the martyr complex and youll remove the excuse for violence.

The only problem is, their are those, who want israel wiped off the map, and no matter what you do, you cant appease them, or make them want to stop.

Jews arent the only people to have lost loved ones. The dead babies are not ALL jewish. Pals bleed too.

I understand that, but if terrorists are going to hide out in large civilian populations, I believe they are responsible for their deaths, because no country can sit back, and wait to be attacked.

Am I asking anything more than was asked of 20th century whites who were convinced that blacks were savage and injuns before that?

Ive seen decent kind hearted muslims, palestinains and so on, and what your asking is not a bad thing.

I dont think we disagree that much.

But i think security is very important. If you too away that wall, and any palestinian good or bad, could just walk in and blow up or shoot any jew for no reason, any time he wanted, that cost is too high.

Where am i wrong?

 

[Shogun]

"The problem here is the palestinians, let me explain. Even before israel was reborn, the palestinians, rejected the idea of jews living among them as equal citizens. Infact, many muslims countries today persecute non-muslims and women."

Be that as it may in other countries we are talking about Israel. Also, didnt you just say that we should not be living in the past? Sure, blacks in America in the 40s probably had a different motivation than blacks in America these days. Do you think that the majority of pals today have anything but a residual reason to fight the same fight IF GIVEN A REASON NOT TO? Pals may have percieved a very fresh invasion then. Right or wrong. NOW, it's gotten to the point where the next generation is fighting for a cause that they have no reason to fight IF GIVEN A REASON TO INVEST THEIR FAITH IN DEMOCRACY. Equality is NOT letting pals dominate jews in Israel. Im one of those equality type of guys..


"Let us take a look at gaza, which was recently given to the palestinians. Gaza was used to sell flowers to europe. When the palestinians got it, they destroyed the green houses."

Kinda like how a current boyfriend might destroy the tokens of the last, eh? Did anyone ever ask what THEY wanted to do with the land before marginalizing their behaviour? Did anyone consider developing leaders and prosperity rather than demonize the work of the previous tennants?


"Today, rockets are being shot from gaza at the israelies."

......as long as they have a percieved reason for vilence it doesn't matter WHERE the rockets come from because they will still be coming. What might have happened if a jewish invester helped create an economic reason to use gaza as more than a launching pad? Good faith. Good will. Would a pal be inclined to violence if he has the ability to feed his family without half a days hike around a wall? I do not believe that humans would rather kill for the sake of killing when their needs are being met. starve ANY population and they will erupt. The Frence figured this out during their revolution. So, too, did the British when they were taking advantage of the colonies. If I give you a million dollars are you going to attack and kill that neighbor you hate? no. because you have a million reasons to stay your hand.



"Their has to be a point, where if palestinians wont stop shooting themselves in foot and wont stop attacking israel, (and i believe this point has been past), they must build a protective wall between them, and the palestinian, and the wall has already cut down terrorism by 90%."

but what else has it bought israel? Another couple decades of violence? Another generational reason for pals to see their struggle as righteous? This is cutting off the nose despite the face. Temporary at the very best. Unless Israel is going to do like America did and kill off the population of people that, like it or not, was living there pre-48 then the wall is about as much solution as a crackpipe is to a junkie.



"We may disagree, and thats fine. But, apartheid started in south africa started out of hatred of blacks, the security wall, started to protect jewish civilians against un-provoked violence."

which means nothing according to the perspective of each group. Again, Ive posted about arson already so Im pretty sure jews are not impervious to hatred. unprovoked? Tell that to a man who cant feed his family because pals have been restricted access during a holiday.




"So, even if your right, that palestinians are being treated shitty, it is of their own doing,"

again, bullshit. you might as well say that the woman wearing the mini skirt invited rape or that injuns forfieted theyre right to north america because they fought back. Again, what is more important? saving face or peace?



"and if want to have a state, and be treated with respect, they must earn it,"

who are you to decide as much? did the jews EARN Israel or was Israel created for the jews by western nations? I think that this is where you are trying to wrap yourself up in excuses rather than consider that your child may be a brat too. Certainly, the violence must stop.. but we' d need transparent equality, on par with our own, inorder to plant these seeds that im not convinced that you want planted.



"by first, dis-arming, and dis-banding all terrorist groups, and renouncing all terror, stop teaching their kids that."

sorry, thats like saying that America will leave iraq after they elect an American for their spiritual leader. you cant chance hearts and minds with an ultimatum. Youll never have peace without consideration. If you don't give them a reason to stop teaching their kids besides, "do it or you can fucking starve to death" then it seems like a half assed effort anyway. Like I said, i'm not totally convinced that Israel wants to give up its upper hand for the sake of peace. Ethnicity and POWER, remember?




we can ALL rationalize behaviour as "defense" while ignoring any perspective
other than our own.

"That is profoundly true. I try to put myself in the palestinian shoes, but it is very hard, because the palestinians had a chance at peace in 1948, and blew it, and time and time again, would rather die, then let a single jew, or non-muslim live in israel/ the holy land."

Lemme tellya.. I don't own the history of America before I was born. If your desire for peace extends merely to some 1940s window then this is a worthless conversation and you might as well gas em with xylon B now. At some point you will have to ask yourself WHY they would rather die a martyr than live as someones cultural bitch.



Neither is israel impervious to criticism for blatant ethnic based nationalism that results in a system of obvious aparthied.

"I have to disagree, if it was true apartheid, why do 1 million israeli arabs live in israel?."


Ive covered this. Blacks lived in South Africa too. population /= POWER.



"Honestly, with every post you write, you expose your understanding of the middle east much better, then when i first starting reading your threads, in short, I think your a very intelligent person."

Muchas Gracias. All we are saying is give peace a chance. Not in some retro hippie "I wish I were at woodstock (tm)" way either. We have a chance to solve some of the problems of the 20th century by investing in people with whome we may disagree. I ask you to take your own advise and not live in the past.

 

[Shogun]

Ill reply in the morning..

Have a great evening, sir.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Because the u.s., didnt imprison them, but did imprison the japanese. Just thought it was something worse mentioning



"Sir. I did use a knee-jerk reaction. Second. When I hear people like yourself speak, it gives off a tone of anti-semitism, even if your 0% anti-semetic, because, I see no criticism of the palestinians in your threads. Certainly, you can see, why I would have a knee-jerk reaction, or why someone would think your anti-semetic. At this point, i dont think your anti- semetic, i simply disagree with you. What i did ask you for, was one ethnic group in america, going around in present day 2007, trying to wipe one ethnic group off the map."


I didn't mention pals because they are not set up in a position of authority. They have no input on the reality of Israel. Israel will be there regardless of pal opinions at this point. If the situation were the complete opposite id be the first to question pal aparthied.

Ok, that is a very fair argument. I would like to see the pals have a state one day, peacefully living along side israel.

and, one ethnic group trying to whipe another off the map? uh, the entire 20th century of whites dominating blacks? Whites versus the natives? Why be daft to the reality of American history? Do you really think that natives reacted ANY Less violently to the manifest destiny that produced the United States? Whites intending to purge America of "illegal aliens"? Notice the common themes of ethnicity and power.

Hmm. I agree with you, but this was not only america, Europe, I can name atleast france and britain, as doing the same. But I was talking about in the last 20 years or so. But your argument does make more sense.



"You are right, i assumed, but tell me this sir, how can i assume otherwise, if i hear no criticism of the palestinians?. "

uh, because you don't like it when people stereotype your motivations any more than anyone else? The golden rule, dude. It is silly to require equal damnation when criticising one group dominating another. Is it equally valid to have to criticise the jews while criticising the germans for the holocaust?

No.

Natives and colonial europeans?

No.

Do you just want to hear how suicide bombs and missle attacks are bad?

Hmm. Your right.

To me, that is a given. of COURSE scalping the white man is horrible. Will such a line of thinking help figure out the root cause of the conflict? It didnt when Americans were busy killing off the injuns....

Sadly Japan and turkey wont apologize for their sins, and im sure how much america has truly apologize to their natives, and africans.


"I already admitted I knee-jerked sir."

Thank you for admitting that. Ive had this arguement many times on other boards and some people wont even get that far. I agree that this is a sensitive subject. The internet is notoriously shitty for such conversations because you cannot look anyone in the eye and try to determine their motives or humor. Again, thank you. I will tone down my sarcasm.

Thank you , for accepting my apology, and admitting, how tough this really is, lol. Sometimes I forget that.



"If you would have said, I disagree with how the jews treat palestinians, or the palestinians, are not treated fairly, thats one thing, but you were much more harsh then that sir."

I have a habit of using salt instead of sugar. Such is my hubris.
Ill apologise for any misunderstanding such has caused.

You are awesome , a lot of the time, I am WAY TOO agressive.



"I have no lust for death sir, and see, statements like that, may, rightfully or wrongfully make people think your anti-semetic, because, why would the jewish people have a lust for death sir?"


jewish people as a whole? not at all. individual jews? certainly.

Of course

However, this is an example of the above mentioned salt instead of sugar and is no more necessary in debate than knee jerk labeling. Again, I retract and apologise.

You are awesome my friend, if i may have the pleasure of calling you such.



"Sir. I called you an anti-semite, which i am taking back at this point, because of the tone of your statements, which were all one-sided, against israel, calling israel nazi's and so on. You could have made your point, without being so mean-spirited in the first place. Let me give you an example of how you said what you said, and how you could of said the same thing, less harshly and no one would have called you an anti-semite. you way, america is a fascist nation, my way. I disagree with what america did to the native american and lations in the past. Both convey the same message. Its not a point of our all evil, and im all good, or vice versa. I think your a brilliant guy, I just think youre wrong thats all."


brilliant but wrong.. ill take that

HA!

May i ask your first name, and where your from, i heard the word daft, which is a phrase my scottish friend uses .




"Sir, did i not say, i do NOT agree with the settlements. Are you having selective hearing?. Name a policy of israel you disagree with, not just israel is bad, israel terrorist, israel suck, then we can have an honest debate ok. and for starters, what would you do to solve this mess?. "


for starters? I would make every effort to coddle pals like my long lost brother. why? because there are a LOT of hostile nations in the area beyond the pals who may have the hatred AND the power to eventually harm israel. If Israel can rise above skinned knees and give pals a reason to love israel instead of hate jews then not only is violence in israel solved but Israel would double it's population that want to keep Israel around. Israel would have to adopt discrimination laws equivilent to ours as long as we act like the big brother keeping muslim nations at bay. This is no different than a pair of children fighting over who gets to play in the sandbox. Finding a solution that creates a symbiotic relationship and remives the STARK ethnic lines will help. Perhaps this is easy to say because I am an athiest but there must be, at the minimum, the golden rule level of tolorance of dogmas too. Investing in palestine is an investment in peace... Hell, let their elected government function for christs sakes... Give them a reason to see that DEMOCRACY works. Why would they think so if their elected choice is laughed out of policy making because of bitterness? Seems to me voting is better than being killed. Just as the Kurds have decided to step into the 21st century, so too will pals that actually reap the benefits of peaceful solutions. You may say that im a dreamer.. but im not the only one.




"Again, IM NOT calling you an anti-semite, im asking for a discussion here.
Im sorry i knee jerked, but i tried to explain how someone could see you rightfully or wrongfully as an anti-semite."


Fair enough. You have a great evening, sir.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

"The problem here is the palestinians, let me explain. Even before israel was reborn, the palestinians, rejected the idea of jews living among them as equal citizens. Infact, many muslims countries today persecute non-muslims and women."

Be that as it may in other countries we are talking about Israel. Also, didnt you just say that we should not be living in the past?

True, but i was trying to make a point, even if i may have done it poorly, which is, Im not sure how many palestinians want a state, and how many just want the jews in the sea. Im the not the best communicator lol

Sure, blacks in America in the 40s probably had a different motivation than blacks in America these days.

very true

Do you think that the majority of pals today have anything but a residual reason to fight the same fight IF GIVEN A REASON NOT TO?

You have a point.

Pals may have percieved a very fresh invasion then. Right or wrong. NOW, it's gotten to the point where the next generation is fighting for a cause that they have no reason to fight IF GIVEN A REASON TO INVEST THEIR FAITH IN DEMOCRACY. Equality is NOT letting pals dominate jews in Israel. Im one of those equality type of guys..

Im all for equality, and I support your idea, of giving the pals, something besides jihad to fight for, and thats a great state, next to the jews.


"Let us take a look at gaza, which was recently given to the palestinians. Gaza was used to sell flowers to europe. When the palestinians got it, they destroyed the green houses."

Kinda like how a current boyfriend might destroy the tokens of the last, eh?

Haha, so true.

Did anyone ever ask what THEY wanted to do with the land before marginalizing their behaviour? Did anyone consider developing leaders and prosperity rather than demonize the work of the previous tennants?

No, i guess they didnt


"Today, rockets are being shot from gaza at the israelies."

......as long as they have a percieved reason for vilence it doesn't matter WHERE the rockets come from because they will still be coming. What might have happened if a jewish invester helped create an economic reason to use gaza as more than a launching pad? Good faith. Good will. Would a pal be inclined to violence if he has the ability to feed his family without half a days hike around a wall? I do not believe that humans would rather kill for the sake of killing when their needs are being met.

See, I think the problem is, you do have some, I dont know the percentage, that would rather die, then live to make a peaceful, positive palestine.

Let me put it this way, what other choice?, or what other alternative, if any, could you please suggest, besides the security wall?. I mean that with all sincerity, because i understand your point, and i feel for the palestinians, having to go through 18,000 checkpoints a day, and taking 4 hours to get somewhere that should take ten minutes. I understand, that sucks!.

starve ANY population and they will erupt. The Frence figured this out during their revolution. So, too, did the British when they were taking advantage of the colonies. If I give you a million dollars are you going to attack and kill that neighbor you hate? no. because you have a million reasons to stay your hand.

I am worried, that some of the palestinians do not have the logical tools, that we do, that jihad to them is more important then life, and anyone, meaning any good muslim who dares stand up to them, will be killed, and to me, the best thing the u.s. can do is support democracy in iran, and palestine, that is a good, noble thing, maybe not through military, but surely other ways no?



"Their has to be a point, where if palestinians wont stop shooting themselves in foot and wont stop attacking israel, (and i believe this point has been past), they must build a protective wall between them, and the palestinian, and the wall has already cut down terrorism by 90%."

but what else has it bought israel? Another couple decades of violence? Another generational reason for pals to see their struggle as righteous? This is cutting off the nose despite the face. Temporary at the very best. Unless Israel is going to do like America did and kill off the population of people that, like it or not, was living there pre-48 then the wall is about as much solution as a crackpipe is to a junkie.

What if we give palestinians every reason to stop terrorism, stop jihad, and they wont take it, what then?.



"We may disagree, and thats fine. But, apartheid started in south africa started out of hatred of blacks, the security wall, started to protect jewish civilians against un-provoked violence."

which means nothing according to the perspective of each group. Again, Ive posted about arson already so Im pretty sure jews are not impervious to hatred. unprovoked? Tell that to a man who cant feed his family because pals have been restricted access during a holiday.

Im not for treating pals like shit, im against darfur killing, the rwandan genocide, i have a heart. I want a solution to this as bad as you do, I simply want israel to be able to defend itself, and let them destroy the terrorist groups.

What say you lol


"So, even if your right, that palestinians are being treated shitty, it is of their own doing,"

again, bullshit. you might as well say that the woman wearing the mini skirt invited rape or that injuns forfieted theyre right to north america because they fought back. Again, what is more important? saving face or peace?

You have a good point here. Peace is more important. I do however have one question for you. what percentage of pals want peace, and what percentage want israel wiped off map, how do u stop the percentage or those who want israel wiped off map?.



"and if want to have a state, and be treated with respect, they must earn it,"

who are you to decide as much?

I didnt mean me personally lol

did the jews EARN Israel or was Israel created for the jews by western nations?

Well it was re-created, first by the balfour document in 1917, then the u.n., established it again in 1948.

I think that this is where you are trying to wrap yourself up in excuses rather than consider that your child may be a brat too.

Of course, I have come to the realization, that criticism of israel is not anti-semetic, I think honestly its such a fine line. Look in america, you cant be against the war, (im not against the war) without being anti-american, we havent been taught how to critically think. To see the difference, even if the line is blurry between a hater, and a critcizer, does that make sense?

Certainly, the violence must stop.. but we' d need transparent equality, on par with our own, inorder to plant these seeds that im not convinced that you want planted.

Equality in what sense. How do we get there?. Im not a muslim hater , used too be. But, im open to any and all ideas you got for me.



"by first, dis-arming, and dis-banding all terrorist groups, and renouncing all terror, stop teaching their kids that."

sorry, thats like saying that America will leave iraq after they elect an American for their spiritual leader. you cant chance hearts and minds with an ultimatum. Youll never have peace without consideration. If you don't give them a reason to stop teaching their kids besides, "do it or you can fucking starve to death" then it seems like a half assed effort anyway. Like I said, i'm not totally convinced that Israel wants to give up its upper hand for the sake of peace. Ethnicity and POWER, remember?

Ok. so lets say, just for the sake argument, and fun , that your right, how does israel convince the pals to stop?






we can ALL rationalize behaviour as "defense" while ignoring any perspective
other than our own.

"That is profoundly true. I try to put myself in the palestinian shoes, but it is very hard, because the palestinians had a chance at peace in 1948, and blew it, and time and time again, would rather die, then let a single jew, or non-muslim live in israel/ the holy land."

Lemme tellya.. I don't own the history of America before I was born. If your desire for peace extends merely to some 1940s window then this is a worthless conversation and you might as well gas em with xylon B now. At some point you will have to ask yourself WHY they would rather die a martyr than live as someones cultural bitch.

Yes, i know the first holocaust was not the 1940's, infact turkey killed 1.5 million armenian christians, between 1915-1919. Yes, i should not be so biased, that i cant look at history from the beginning to now.



Neither is israel impervious to criticism for blatant ethnic based nationalism that results in a system of obvious aparthied.

"I have to disagree, if it was true apartheid, why do 1 million israeli arabs live in israel?."


Ive covered this. Blacks lived in South Africa too. population /= POWER.

Still, without a wall, how do israelies stop terrorism?



"Honestly, with every post you write, you expose your understanding of the middle east much better, then when i first starting reading your threads, in short, I think your a very intelligent person."

Muchas Gracias. All we are saying is give peace a chance. Not in some retro hippie "I wish I were at woodstock (tm)" way either. We have a chance to solve some of the problems of the 20th century by investing in people with whome we may disagree. I ask you to take your own advise and not live in the past.

I am trying my friend, sometimes i forget how biased, and closed minded i can be. You ever hear the old saying, those who scream racism the loudest are usually the most racist, well unfortunently, i screamed closed minded, and i was the most close minded.

Have a nice evening sir

Thanks for challenging me with healthy debate and perspective/discussion

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[actsnoblemartin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by actsnoblemartin View Post
we seem to have a huge population on this thread of ignorant fools, who dont know all the facts, and who are blantantly so biased, and anti-semetic, that they dont even deserve a response. For their hatred is so evident, they cannot even pretend to be fair minded because they are not.

The palestinian terrorists hide out in huge civilian populations, and then use their kids as martys, funny, since they teach their kids to go die, for nothing anyway. Its very hypocritical.

But you anti-semitic fools, believe everything your media tells you, without thinking.

You assume that anyone willing to remove jews in israel from the pedestal they are currently enjoying for the sake of common humanity simply hates jews.. but.. I guess it is easier to scream antisemite than to actually consider humanity outside of your team jersey, eh?

I try to look at humanity, darfur, christian persecution, sexual , and child exploitation.

teach their kids to go die?

the same can be said about ANY conflict between nations of people. Im betting you don't hold the same standard for Americans sending their youth to Iraq.

The only difference is, these kids in palestine, are being taught to die for allah , while our boys arent being tie to die for jesus. But i get your point, anyone can die for a cause.

Like I said.. If you need to label me and burn my house down like the above jew that DARED to question zionism then be my guest. Meanwhile, keep on ignoring the treatment of pals since, apparently, only jews feel the pain of being dominated by another ethnic group. You'll see what you want to see just like the masses of germans that allowed Hitler to bring his final solution to fruition.

I try not to label to be honest, because , i think its unfair, but to be honest, i was a raging hypocrite with you, i hate when people dont listen to what i say, the meat and potatoes of it, but get hung up on tone, and label me. But i did it to you. I'll have to work on that.

 

[Annie]

I'm pretty sure I agree with much of what you post, but do you think you could get the quote thing down? The posts are pretty hard to read.

If you don't know how, contact a mod or admin. They'll walk you through it or edit so it's more 'readable.'