Alexander Hamilton (among the founding fathers), rallying support for the ratification of the US Constitution, wrote this about taxes:
"Thus far the ends of public happiness will be promoted by supplying the wants of government, and all beyond this is unworthy of our care or anxiety. How is it possible
that a government half supplied and always necessitous, can fulfill the purposes of its institution, can provide for the security, advance the prosperity, or support the
reputation of the commonwealth? How can it ever possess either energy or stability, dignity or credit, confidence at home or respectability abroad? How can its administration be any thing else than a succession of expedients temporizing, impotent, disgraceful? How will it be able to avoid a frequent sacrifice of its engagements to immediate necessity? How can it undertake or execute any liberal or enlarged plans of public good?"
Even those embodying the "invisible hand" of laissez-faire capitalism recognize the public good of freeing those in business from the dangers of fraud, breach of contract, safety from fire, protection from criminals (whether disenfranchised marauders, corporate thieves, or terrorists), etc. The founding fathers recognized how commerce would be enhanced by public infrastructure. Yes, these are all paid by taxes. Since they are therefore provided, businesses can be built.
This doesn't touch on the fact that most of modern businesses (which depend on computers, the internet, telecommunications, interstate roads, etc.) could not exist without the educated populace and government investments that gave rise to such tools (the list goes on).
I have owned and now run small businesses successfully. I've worked hard. I am reasonably clever. I asked for no handouts. However, I'm not so deluded to think that my success arose from my sheer efforts alone. I think those who believe so need a reality check.
Of course I pay taxes (fed, state and local), since I appreciate most of the services paid for by them.
Do you think you're not paying enough then? Bear in mind that everything Obama said the other day was in the context of arguing his tax policy and why he thinks it's okay to ask more from people like you?
I don't have anything like the problem you imply... I never said that infrastructure was all that is in the federal budget. I merely pointed out that it is "American" to use taxes to execute plans for the public good (which CrusaderFrank had denied).
CrusaderFrank wrote this in post #14, clearly in a response to Barack Obama's speech in Roanoke. Certainly, he can speak for himself on his meaning, but I don't see anything in that which suggests that he has a problem with the constitutionally enumerated function of federal government, but rather that he found Obama's argument unconvincing and unacceptable. Probably on multiple levels, much as I did.
Originally Posted by CrusaderFrank View Post
And it only resonates with the people who never had exposure to American free enterprise, the ones who embrace this are the losers, the slackers, the Mommy's basement resident, the feeble-minded who are convinced that they failed because America is so darn mean-spirited. It's not just an unAmerican attitude, it's anti-American
As I attempted to explain to you earlier, all the federal spending that could be considered of use to businesses, things like national security and education, are already paid for with less than 25% of federal spending. My use of "here's your problem" simply means that your argument isn't holding water. It's not the Republican position that we shouldn't pay any taxes in order to live in a decent society. It wasn't CrusaderFrank's position either, I dare say.
I know what a "straw man argument" is; it's what you have done here to me. I never said that republicans are anarchists who don't believe in paying taxes that promote a decent society.
I don't think I misunderstood your meaning. You posted Hamilton's reasoning for why federal government needed to be provided with revenues, but no one's arguing that it shouldn't. Federal government has been WELL provided since Hamilton made his argument. In fact, revenues have tripled since 1965, and that's in adjusted dollars. Problem is... spending has more than quintupled.
Reagan introduced the "reform" of changing from a "tax and spend" federal government to a "borrow and spend" policy. We have been swallowed by mushrooming debt since (except during Clinton's term). As a proportion of GDP, the current rate of increase in the debt is on par with those of Reagan and both the Bushes (search "Federal Debt and GDP" and review the facts under usgovernmentspending, zfacts, etc.... i'm too much of a noob here to post a url). This fact may not be good, but it is NOT different.
Reagan isn't president anymore. And he's not the one who ran our national debt up to almost 16 trillion. I don't have time to get into a protracted debate on the merits and lack thereof of Keynesian spending or the Federal Reserve. Unfortunately, I've got alot more to get accomplished in real life today. Let me just say this though... our problem is unrestrained entitlements. And this administration, much the same as the ones before it, have done NOTHING to reform them. So while lots of politicians, both Democrat and Republican have culpability in the situation we find ourselves in right now, I hold the current administration in particular contempt for adding an entirely new one of gigantic proportions, already forecast by the CBO to cost three times what they said it would. Insult to injury, they won't even bother themselves to produce a federal budget.
(Oh... and btw, to do links, you can simply copy-and-paste if you like. But there's also a symbol right above the text box with a little globe and yellow hyperlink symbol. You can copy the address of the page you want to link and paste it in the drop box that presents itself. When you confirm with "ok", you'll note that some of the text will be highlighted. That portion is removable, and you can replace it with any text you like.
ie.
Enforcement of Copyright
I linked you a thread on the board's copyright policy. Useful if you're going to be quoting and linking articles.)
WHY should even one citizen, no matter how filthy rich, be forced to provide another red cent to this reckless, irresponsible administration???
The real problem for all of us is that the institutions of the global banking system has financialized the world's dominant economies and both parties support that system that bankrupts us all.
I'm still interested in why any American should have to pay anything in additional taxes until this administration does its job.
