Yet Another Reason I'm Not Fond of Unions

[Jarhead]

Yet more right wing hating on actual humans who walk the earth being allowed to have some power over their own lives.

And that is exactly where you miss the point. We should not have POWER over our own lives. We should have personal responsibility for our own lives.
If you must apply "power" to get what you want, then maybe you dont deserve what you want.
And it is those that went out and used power to get what they want that put them in a position to not be able to pay for what they want.

Damn, you are a wise man, Jar. Semper Fi!

lol...thanks CG....Today is the first day of my retirement.....life is good.

 

[blastoff]

Yet more right wing hating on actual humans who walk the earth being allowed to have some power over their own lives.

What power over one's life does a union stooge have? The collective bargaining herd mentality? A willingness to work for the same wage as others who can't perform as well as me? Wow, what power in my life. Average a groups' production, worth, etc., and then average a salary to pay all of them. Those who could care less about the product or service they're working to provide get paid the same as others dedicated to working hard to achieve the best. That's some bargain, collectively speaking.

 

[Steelplate]

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes to Unions. People need to stop seeing them as all perfect or the destroyer of business. They are neither. The problem always arises when unions or bosses abuse their power. That is down to individuals - people.... People are the problem, the 'unions' or the 'bosses'.

union bosses abuse their power? What about the abuse of power on the management side?

So, Unions are Ok if they mind their place, but management can do whatever they want? Seems like your no "right or wrong" is severely one sided.

 

[NLT]

And that is exactly where you miss the point. We should not have POWER over our own lives. We should have personal responsibility for our own lives.
If you must apply "power" to get what you want, then maybe you dont deserve what you want.
And it is those that went out and used power to get what they want that put them in a position to not be able to pay for what they want.

Damn, you are a wise man, Jar. Semper Fi!

lol...thanks CG....Today is the first day of my retirement.....life is good.

Congratz. Are retired from the USMC?

 

[JoeB131]

Look at the Right to Work states. They seem to be doing quite well. More companies go there than other states and the chance of losing the jobs to overseas lessens.

So because we have retarded trade treaties, we should happily give up our rights.

Hey, let's dump all the worker safety laws/ I Mean, why not, those third world countries don't have them. So what if we lose some fingers.

OSHA is tasked with workplace safety not unions. The laws are already on the books.

Let's get rid of the child labor laws, too. I mean, those third world countries use child labor, look how competitive they are. Whooops, little Molly got sucked into a thresher. Guess we have to go down to the orphanage and get another one.

Red herring. Child labor laws will not be abolished in any way shape or form.

Hey, and those silly environmental laws. Yeah, let's get rid of those. Who needs clean drinking water? Just the rich. Suck it, peasants.

Come on, get real. We are not better off because we are forcing our workers to live in third world conditions.

Unions have nothing to do with the EPA you twit.

I was specifically talking about the morons who say that fair wages and worker representation make us "less competitive" (I.E. The greedy can't shove as much into their pockets.)

Well, so do all those other things. I mean, they could make huge profits if we got rid of all that shit.

And seriously, right after the NLRB, the two biggest targets for "Economic Conservatives" are OSHA and the EPA.

 

[IndependntLogic]

If their are no unions business will walk all over the workers. All workers will be making low wages, no benefits. That is just business. Unions must work with business in times of TRUE need, not for increased profits. If a president of a corporation gets a million dollar bonus ans so on and so forth, I would not work with them as a union to cut labor costs. If labor costs are causing a company to lose market shares and management is cutting their wages and benefits then the union needs to jump on board and share the burden. In no case should a union defend people who violate the companies safety and drug policies as well as any federal regulation. Cost of living increases are only fair also. It is a marriage of the management protecting the business and the investors and the unions protecting the workers from companies who fail to recognize the value of their employees.

You seem to think I'm against unions as a whole. I'm not. But I get irritated with some of them when they put the interests of the unions reps or the union itself, against the best interest of the workers as a whole. This is the case here. Our whole city is pissed of at this one small group of union leaders who are unwilling to look at the big picture.
Tim Hsieh runs Zappos. Google it. It is one of the best, coolest places to work in America. You wanna talk about progressive? Free lunches. The vending machines are all free. Video games for people to play when they need a break. The janitor has direct access to the CEO. The guy gives more to charity and more to the city than all of the Evil Corporate Empires combined.
But his company is currently here, in Henderson. We have neighbors who work for Station Casinos. They DON'T WANT the unions coming in. Why? Station is a rare exception. They pay a higher wage. That simple.
Hsieh has poured millions into Downtown (not the Strip) and will bring tons of UNION jobs there soon but these assholes can't let that be good enough.
It's like the Teamsters. There's a difference between doing what's right for the worker (which I'm all behind!) and just being dicks. These guys are just being dicks.
Everyone in town is talking about it. Every UNION employee is pissed off about it. Guess what? Like any big group, occasionally unions screw the pooch.

 

[Steelplate]

If their are no unions business will walk all over the workers. All workers will be making low wages, no benefits. That is just business. Unions must work with business in times of TRUE need, not for increased profits. If a president of a corporation gets a million dollar bonus ans so on and so forth, I would not work with them as a union to cut labor costs. If labor costs are causing a company to lose market shares and management is cutting their wages and benefits then the union needs to jump on board and share the burden. In no case should a union defend people who violate the companies safety and drug policies as well as any federal regulation. Cost of living increases are only fair also. It is a marriage of the management protecting the business and the investors and the unions protecting the workers from companies who fail to recognize the value of their employees.

You seem to think I'm against unions as a whole. I'm not. But I get irritated with some of them when they put the interests of the unions reps or the union itself, against the best interest of the workers as a whole. This is the case here. Our whole city is pissed of at this one small group of union leaders who are unwilling to look at the big picture.
Tim Hsieh runs Zappos. Google it. It is one of the best, coolest places to work in America. You wanna talk about progressive? Free lunches. The vending machines are all free. Video games for people to play when they need a break. The janitor has direct access to the CEO. The guy gives more to charity and more to the city than all of the Evil Corporate Empires combined.
But his company is currently here, in Henderson. We have neighbors who work for Station Casinos. They DON'T WANT the unions coming in. Why? Station is a rare exception. They pay a higher wage. That simple.
Hsieh has poured millions into Downtown (not the Strip) and will bring tons of UNION jobs there soon but these assholes can't let that be good enough.
It's like the Teamsters. There's a difference between doing what's right for the worker (which I'm all behind!) and just being dicks. These guys are just being dicks.
Everyone in town is talking about it. Every UNION employee is pissed off about it. Guess what? Like any big group, occasionally unions screw the pooch.

There ya have it. There is no group that is perfect. If the dude from Zappo's is as you say, and I have no reason to doubt you, then unions should leave the guy alone. IMO, unions should be there to protect the worker from unscrupulous employers who take advantage of them. This, IMO... should extend to the public sector.

Yes, I know... it's the taxpayers who foot the bill... I get that. However, judging from this board, a huge chunk of you would have public sector employees working for next to nothing so you could save on taxation. Public Sector employees need to feed their families too. I make about $35K doing what I do. My wife(an RN in the same place) makes about $60k. With a little overtime, we earn around $100k/year. We pay into our retirements, we help pay for our health insurance. Now, do you folk think that's outrageous? That what we make is so outside the norm? I happen to think that most of the bad publicity that Public sector employees get is very much due to the right wing media doing a hatchet job on them.

I've seen people put up links to charts showing that some schmuck in NYC gets over 100K/year... mostly due to Overtime. Why is that? Maybe his job is a lot like mine. If someone calls off sick, there needs to be someone to take his/her place. It's not like you can shut down a mental retardation center and let the folk that live there take care of themselves.... there needs to be people there 24/7. I am sure that it's the same with many other facets of the government. The question is... instead of paying out all that overtime, why not just hire more people to fill the need? I can answer that. Because it's cheaper to pay time and a half than it is to pay full salary and benefits to a new person. Plus... NYC is not representative of every state.

 

[DaGoose]

If their are no unions business will walk all over the workers. All workers will be making low wages, no benefits. That is just business. Unions must work with business in times of TRUE need, not for increased profits. If a president of a corporation gets a million dollar bonus ans so on and so forth, I would not work with them as a union to cut labor costs. If labor costs are causing a company to lose market shares and management is cutting their wages and benefits then the union needs to jump on board and share the burden. In no case should a union defend people who violate the companies safety and drug policies as well as any federal regulation. Cost of living increases are only fair also. It is a marriage of the management protecting the business and the investors and the unions protecting the workers from companies who fail to recognize the value of their employees.

You seem to think I'm against unions as a whole. I'm not. But I get irritated with some of them when they put the interests of the unions reps or the union itself, against the best interest of the workers as a whole. This is the case here. Our whole city is pissed of at this one small group of union leaders who are unwilling to look at the big picture.
Tim Hsieh runs Zappos. Google it. It is one of the best, coolest places to work in America. You wanna talk about progressive? Free lunches. The vending machines are all free. Video games for people to play when they need a break. The janitor has direct access to the CEO. The guy gives more to charity and more to the city than all of the Evil Corporate Empires combined.
But his company is currently here, in Henderson. We have neighbors who work for Station Casinos. They DON'T WANT the unions coming in. Why? Station is a rare exception. They pay a higher wage. That simple.
Hsieh has poured millions into Downtown (not the Strip) and will bring tons of UNION jobs there soon but these assholes can't let that be good enough.
It's like the Teamsters. There's a difference between doing what's right for the worker (which I'm all behind!) and just being dicks. These guys are just being dicks.
Everyone in town is talking about it. Every UNION employee is pissed off about it. Guess what? Like any big group, occasionally unions screw the pooch.

There ya have it. There is no group that is perfect. If the dude from Zappo's is as you say, and I have no reason to doubt you, then unions should leave the guy alone. IMO, unions should be there to protect the worker from unscrupulous employers who take advantage of them. This, IMO... should extend to the public sector.

Yes, I know... it's the taxpayers who foot the bill... I get that. However, judging from this board, a huge chunk of you would have public sector employees working for next to nothing so you could save on taxation. Public Sector employees need to feed their families too. I make about $35K doing what I do. My wife(an RN in the same place) makes about $60k. With a little overtime, we earn around $100k/year. We pay into our retirements, we help pay for our health insurance. Now, do you folk think that's outrageous? That what we make is so outside the norm? I happen to think that most of the bad publicity that Public sector employees get is very much due to the right wing media doing a hatchet job on them.

I've seen people put up links to charts showing that some schmuck in NYC gets over 100K/year... mostly due to Overtime. Why is that? Maybe his job is a lot like mine. If someone calls off sick, there needs to be someone to take his/her place. It's not like you can shut down a mental retardation center and let the folk that live there take care of themselves.... there needs to be people there 24/7. I am sure that it's the same with many other facets of the government. The question is... instead of paying out all that overtime, why not just hire more people to fill the need? I can answer that. Because it's cheaper to pay time and a half than it is to pay full salary and benefits to a new person. Plus... NYC is not representative of every state.

I love it when they throw up extreme examples and try to pass it off as the norm.

 

[California Girl]

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes to Unions. People need to stop seeing them as all perfect or the destroyer of business. They are neither. The problem always arises when unions or bosses abuse their power. That is down to individuals - people.... People are the problem, the 'unions' or the 'bosses'.

union bosses abuse their power? What about the abuse of power on the management side?

So, Unions are Ok if they mind their place, but management can do whatever they want? Seems like your no "right or wrong" is severely one sided.

Which bit of 'when unions or bosses abuses their power.' is over your intellectual pay grade?

I was quite clear that, in my view, both unions and management bear some responsibility.

Twit.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Yet more right wing hating on actual humans who walk the earth being allowed to have some power over their own lives.

Unions are nothing more than mere "politics" these days. When unions were first formed it was about "working conditions", such as corporations making employees work in hazardous locations without any PPE (personal protective equipment) which resulted in high worker fatalities. So they HAD their purpose and proper vision to look out for its members at one time. I can't seem to find the same concern and goals within the last 10 years at least, it's only centered around money and attaining more dues for political lobbying. Outside of union dues, what exactly has the unions done lately to improve worker safety and their environment? Seems the unions aren't the organization they once were, which is why I would hear from union workers how perhaps 12 classmates out of a graduating group of 50 still remain "union" after around 10 years. Why is the union unable to keep its current members if it's such a great benefit to its workers (and I'm referring to prior to this recession)? Can anyone answer me that?

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

We supplement our income by playing a little Texas Hold 'em. The casinos on The Strip are probably easiest because the tourist get drunk and loose up there. But we prefer the local casinos here, in Henderson. The Strip is owned by Fortune 500's nowadays and the service etc... just aren't what they used to be. Neither are the bonuses. That's why we like playing the local casinos out here - like Station casinos. We won over five grand just in bonuses last December. They give us a couple hundred bucks in free dinners and rooms all the time. We have friends who work there and they like it a LOT better than at Ceasar's Entertainment or Harrah's. The other thing we like is the people we meet. The owner of Zappo's is there all the time. He's always in the local news for donating to charities and stuff. Plus his company is known as like, the single coolest place to work in the world - here in Henderson. So when he has guest come to Henderson, he puts them up in the local Station Casinos - which is non-union.
So now, everywhere he goes, he gets shet from leaders in the local culinary union. Why? Because he does business with Station Casinos. He's constantly hassled at the poker tables, in restaurants etc... by those azzholes.
I've never been a fan of private sector unions anyway but this bs is just irritating as hell. This guy brings jobs and revenues to a city that desperately needs both. Shut up union thugs...

You need to read a history book and learn what the unions did for the people of this country. This drivel is an insult to every civil rights movement in our history.

Unions are good. Unions receiving special privileges from government is bad. This country would be alot better off if the do nothing liberals would stop holding there hands out to government and take there future into there own hands. There is most definitely a place for unions in this country.

Unions would be great as they once were, if they devoted their time to developing the most educated, well trained, and looked out for the interest of those corporations who still choose to hire them. Typically, union employees only seem to be about their own "self interest" rather than becoming a major asset for who they work for. This is why unions make it nearly impossible to fire and kick out a union worker who is lazy, unrulely, and refuses to perform. They only end up hurting themselves and leaving a bad impression over the name union. As the first thing everyone thinks of, when they hear "union", is a group of complaining individuals that are lacking in production, always asking for more money yet not giving a damn for the boss they work for. He can't even fire them, as some union rep will simply stand up for the nagging worthless brat while the owner's company suffers for it!

That worker mindset, and the fashion in which a union rep "protects" it's own, must change if the union image is to improve.

 

[Skull Pilot]

So because we have retarded trade treaties, we should happily give up our rights.

Hey, let's dump all the worker safety laws/ I Mean, why not, those third world countries don't have them. So what if we lose some fingers.

OSHA is tasked with workplace safety not unions. The laws are already on the books.



Red herring. Child labor laws will not be abolished in any way shape or form.

Hey, and those silly environmental laws. Yeah, let's get rid of those. Who needs clean drinking water? Just the rich. Suck it, peasants.

Come on, get real. We are not better off because we are forcing our workers to live in third world conditions.

Unions have nothing to do with the EPA you twit.

I was specifically talking about the morons who say that fair wages and worker representation make us "less competitive" (I.E. The greedy can't shove as much into their pockets.)

Well, so do all those other things. I mean, they could make huge profits if we got rid of all that shit.

And seriously, right after the NLRB, the two biggest targets for "Economic Conservatives" are OSHA and the EPA.

Show me where anyone has ever mentioned getting rid of OSHA?

Now OSHA goes completely overboard on a lot of shit like $1000 fines for not putting an OSHA approved label on a bottle of Windex. There needs to be some revamping there but I have not heard OSHA specifically mentioned by ant politician.

 

[Harry Dresden]

If their are no unions business will walk all over the workers. All workers will be making low wages, no benefits.

Horseshit. I have a good job with good benefits and a good salary and I never needed a union to negotiate that for me.

Speak for yourself.

not all companies take care of their employees .......some treat people like shit.....and im willing to bet that the majority have the latter mindset.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

The owner of Zappo's is there all the time. He's always in the local news for donating to charities and stuff. Plus his company is known as like, the single coolest place to work in the world - here in Henderson. So when he has guest come to Henderson, he puts them up in the local Station Casinos - which is non-union.
So now, everywhere he goes, he gets shet from leaders in the local culinary union. Why? Because he does business with Station Casinos. He's constantly hassled at the poker tables, in restaurants etc... by those azzholes.
I've never been a fan of private sector unions anyway but this bs is just irritating as hell. This guy brings jobs and revenues to a city that desperately needs both. Shut up union thugs...

If people in the private sector want to form a union, that's their business and their right as far as I am concerned, but I agree with you that the kind of behavior you're describing is what sours me towards them as well. I don't like this attitude unions carry around that they are somehow deserving of being rewarded with business simply because they are union and that somehow makes them better than the non-union shops.

Public sector unions should be illegal because they are a conflict of interest.

so does the public sector treat their workers so good that they dont need them?......and i am talking about ....how the worker is treated and the working conditions.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes to Unions. People need to stop seeing them as all perfect or the destroyer of business. They are neither. The problem always arises when unions or bosses abuse their power. That is down to individuals - people.... People are the problem, the 'unions' or the 'bosses'.

union bosses abuse their power? What about the abuse of power on the management side?

So, Unions are Ok if they mind their place, but management can do whatever they want? Seems like your no "right or wrong" is severely one sided.

i can only speak for the PO.....but this is big time here...... the abuse of power on the management side
........

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

The owner of Zappo's is there all the time. He's always in the local news for donating to charities and stuff. Plus his company is known as like, the single coolest place to work in the world - here in Henderson. So when he has guest come to Henderson, he puts them up in the local Station Casinos - which is non-union.
So now, everywhere he goes, he gets shet from leaders in the local culinary union. Why? Because he does business with Station Casinos. He's constantly hassled at the poker tables, in restaurants etc... by those azzholes.
I've never been a fan of private sector unions anyway but this bs is just irritating as hell. This guy brings jobs and revenues to a city that desperately needs both. Shut up union thugs...

If people in the private sector want to form a union, that's their business and their right as far as I am concerned, but I agree with you that the kind of behavior you're describing is what sours me towards them as well. I don't like this attitude unions carry around that they are somehow deserving of being rewarded with business simply because they are union and that somehow makes them better than the non-union shops.

Public sector unions should be illegal because they are a conflict of interest.

It's about "choice and competition". Let the state or private sector customer make a decision that's based upon quality workmanship, skills they can offer, cost, and completion deadlines. No contract should be given simply because they are union, their benefits should be proven and earned with the customer (state included) having the option of who they would rather go with. Unions should promote themselves through their work, without this "we are entitled" mentality, and don't belly ache but rather look into some self reflection when they get turned down. After all it's all about pleasing the customer not what THINK you ought to simply be given. Unions simply take too many opportunities for granted without any desire that they should have to put in any effort, or have any concern with who it is they work for. Unions need to think more about their personal effect and their ability, to make the owner's business more profitable. If they focus just on that last statement alone, and ignore any plan that only centers around how to increase union power, then they can finally create a workmanship mentality that's hard to compete against.

 

[editec]

Those of us who actually read history know damned well how capitalism without restraint treated its workers and its customers, too.

Union haters are either very misinformed, or they're very informed tools of big capital.

Unions created the American middle class, folks. They did so by wresting some fairER share of the wealth that the WORKERS were creating.

If you're working and still reasonably well off, you can thank the past effects of UNIONISM for making that possible, UNLESS you are to the manor borne.

In that case it make perfect sense for you to hate unions and all forms of POPULISM.

 

[Full-Auto]

Those of us who actually read history know damned well how capitalism without restraint treats its workers and its customers, too.

Union haters are either very misinformed, or they're very informed tools of big capital.

Unions created the American middle class, folks.

If you're working asnd still reasonably well off, you can thank the past effects of UNIONISM for making that possible, UNLESS you are to the manor borne.

In that case it make perfect sense for you to hate unions and all forms of
POPULISM.

Dinosaurs made way for mammals. The bones look great in museums.

 

[Jarhead]

Those of us who actually read history know damned well how capitalism without restraint treated its workers and its customers, too.

Union haters are either very misinformed, or they're very informed tools of big capital.

Unions created the American middle class, folks. They did so by wresting some fairER share of the wealth that the WORKERS were creating.

If you're working and still reasonably well off, you can thank the past effects of UNIONISM for making that possible, UNLESS you are to the manor borne.

In that case it make perfect sense for you to hate unions and all forms of POPULISM.

Those of us that enjoy the time expedience of air travel have those that spent years developing the first successful flight to thank. None of us would be able to enjoy air travel if not for their hard work.

But if they were to approach us now with their first plane and asked that we pay them to fly in it.....we would all say "thanks, but no thanks."

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Those of us who actually read history know damned well how capitalism without restraint treated its workers and its customers, too.

Union haters are either very misinformed, or they're very informed tools of big capital.

Unions created the American middle class, folks. They did so by wresting some fairER share of the wealth that the WORKERS were creating.

If you're working and still reasonably well off, you can thank the past effects of UNIONISM for making that possible, UNLESS you are to the manor borne.

In that case it make perfect sense for you to hate unions and all forms of POPULISM.

Why can't you come up with anything the unions have done recently to help improve working conditions, outside of more of the same "self interest" of just wanting more money and using dues to lobby for more power through politics? There appears to be a reason why unions are losing members, and some would rather work for themselves starting their own compnay than remain in one. All I hear are "union pep rally talks" and yet these same indivduals remain convemiently silent when they are asked about union motives and to respond about concerns of their work ethics (even from those who used to work under one). Are you fearful of allowing customers to become the determining factor of choosing for themselves if they would prefer the workmanship of a union employee, or go with another company who does more to build on his or her business? Why can't the free market decide, based upon what "quality job" someone can deliver? Are you able to go past your political rhetoric to try and answer me that?