YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[Hollie]

I have no need to provide that, you have chosen to prove you are an idiot, instead!

That's odd. The premise of your argument regarding Jefferson was that he never denied being christian.

Did you forget you made this repeated demand:

Jakey, I have been here all along, you did not provide evidence where these men [Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, or Allan] denied they were Christians.

Did you forget you wrote that? I'm just using your (juvenile, silly, irrevelant, assinine) "standards" here.

So tell us, can you provide evidence where these men [Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, or Allan] denied they were Jewish?

Yo, idiot, that would have been at the same time they denied they were dogs and cats.

... or denied they were christian.

I sense your frustration. The answer you gave was reflexive and emotional. In that way it was not an answer at all, but an attempt to dismiss a legitimate question with ridicule rather than reason.

You obviously have a need to demand a standard of proof from others that you want to be excused from. I used your own standard of argumentation which now causes you to hurl childish insults.

How sad for you.

 

[UltimateReality]

You, sir, are a liar and a deceiver. This is no link to a reliable website substantiating your claim Washington refused communion in any of your previous posts. Not the type of honor I would expect from a retired member of our armed forces. And it is quite weird you haven't denied that you are really Rugged Touch. This evasive technique wreaks of her modus operandi.

You don't get to call yet one more time for evidence that is posted above. Not going to happen.

Instead of being lazy and saying "above" somewhere. Why not give post numbers since no one remembers it and can't find them anywhere? It would add much more to your severely lacking credibility.

Given above several times.

 

[UltimateReality]

So now you deny the faith of your childhood?? You deny you are LDS?

Deflection and does not apply. You go study the LDS, UR, and what they believe. The rest of us will discuss the thread's OP.

Mormons don't make this claim, and yet they claim to be Christians, going even so far as to declare themselves "The church of Jesus Christ", all the while believing the heresy that Jesus and Satan were brothers and that God the Father had physical sex with Mary (this bit of folklore borrowed from Hawly's favorite god Zeus.)

Does not matter, as you know that Jefferson never made testimony that he accept Jesus as Lord and Savior,.

 

[UltimateReality]

If your opinion counts as proof, then you can make these claims. However, when you get ready to come back to reality, you have proved nothing.

One, we have proven that Jefferson, Franklin, Allan, and Paine were not Christians.

Two, we have proven that the country was generally a nation of Christians then and now.

Three, we have proven that the FFs, deists and Christians, created a secular government.

Four, we have proven that logical4u is poorly educated on the subject.

Five, we have proven that UR is simply ignorant and mean-spirited about the subject.

 

[UltimateReality]

I figured you'd ignore this.

Predictable.

Even more predictable is your total and complete lack of grasp on English grammar. Just to let you know the word 'AND' is a conjunction, so the first thought should be read in the context of the second thought. Here is the quote, and then I will explain it to you in common English.



And now for the English you missed: "Someone else [that is, another poster, i.e. Craker pot, not Starkey] brought up the fact I was a cop AND discredited my service." I didn't say "someone else brought up the fact I was a cop originally.". The point was you brought it up AND you AND Stankey discredited it. Here are the post, in chronologically order [do I need to explain what that means, Crackerpot?]

Here's a clue, Officer Barbrady: Post 562 was before all that.

Why do I wasted my time here when folks can't even communicate in common English???

At least you're entertaining.

Omigosh you still don't get it, do you!!! Did you read what I just posted above? I cut and pasted a post from another website that said I was a retired cop FIRST. So the notion I was a cop came from me ORIGINALLY. You are missing the intent of the sentence above. You brought it up again AND discredited my service. Let me say it again slower. You are not taking the statement in the context of being used with the conjunction 'AND'. You are making an inference that isn't there, that I was claiming you brought it up first. I never claimed you brought up I was a cop originally!!!!! Still trying to figure out why I wasted my time with folks on a 3rd grade reading level.

 

[UltimateReality]

Yes, I can see them using the Mayan calendar to date their documents. That's totally within the realm of possibilities.

The mental gymnastics you've got going on here are Olympic caliber.

I can't even come close to the twisting and jumping being done by those trying to prove that this is not a Christian nation!

However, the question still stands: Which dating system prevalent in the 18th century would a person have to use if he did not want to refer to the Lord?

The question DOESN't still stand. I answered your question right here...

It's called the Gregorian calendar for your info and everyone in the 18th century would have used it.

Go back and read what I said so you can jump around and act all giddy that you have proven something. But the reality is you totally missed the original argument so this point, while true, is completely irrelevant.

 

[UltimateReality]

This is not a requirement to become a Christian. I stated before, Mormons consider themselves Christians, and they DO NOT accept Jesus as their savior. Your argument, no matter how many times you repeat it, is based on a fallacious premise. Nice try, though.

Actually, . . . we have lots that he was not a Christian.

You have none that he accepted Jesus as his savior.

Does not matter, as you know that Jefferson never made testimony that he accept Jesus as Lord and Savior,.

Got it. You have no evidence that states Jefferson was an atheist or a deist from Jefferson.

 

[UltimateReality]

I am a solid Republican who can research, write, and think critically.

Riiiiight. And you are a wealthy businessman too. And a soldier as well.

 

[UltimateReality]

Stop acting like a communist.

No family attacks-Meister

 

[UltimateReality]

However, the question still stands: Which dating system prevalent in the 18th century would a person have to use if he did not want to refer to the Lord?

If they were truly not Christian, they would have chosen different wording.

There was an Arabic calendar. There was a mayan calendar. They could have been "prideful" and started their own calendar. They could have simply left out "the year of our Lord" with just the date.

So apparently everyone living in Corpus Christi, Texas is Christian? I mean, obviously writing "the body of Christ" every time they write out their address means they certainly recognize the divinity of Jesus Christ, right?

Dude, you really need to lay your Strawman to rest and move on. All you are proving with these repetitive posts are that you are clueless about the conversation.

 

[UltimateReality]

You are acting like a communist again, claiming I bare false witness when in fact you are the one doing that.

A "believing" Christian compared to a "practicing" Christian, because you sure do that, bear false witness a lot.....

You gave a list of FF that you claim were not Christian. When asked for evidence where these FF declared this about themselves, you could not deliver. In fact, we are STILL waiting for that evidence.

And don't forget the evidence that Washington refused communion. I've been waiting on that too even though Stankey keeps lying and saying he has provided evidence. I seriously think he doesn't know what he is posting and he is getting confused on what you and I have posted.

 

[UltimateReality]

You have not one quote that has Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, or Allan stating that they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Still pounding on your false premise??? This is looking worse and worse for you.

 

[UltimateReality]

Actually, . . . we have lots that he was not a Christian.

You have none that he accepted Jesus as his savior.

Yes, you keep saying that, yet nothing where Jefferson declares himself not to be a Christian. Records from the day, indicate that he was a member of a Christian church and wrote about the Lord. That does not support "your" claim.

Still waiting for that evidence.

Your continued attempts to force your religion on Jefferson makes you appear quite desperate.

Hawly, always with the assumptive language trickery!!!! Jefferson is dead stupid!! No one can force their religion on him. What you can try and do is revise history by making unsubstantiated claims about his beliefs.

 

[UltimateReality]

I sense your frustration.

I bet you do. Most drunks probably get used to the usual response of frustration when one attempts to argue with same. Very much akin to beating one's head against the wall.

 

[UltimateReality]

It's true. There is not a single reference to god in the constitution.

Speaking of frustation, Hawly does this on purpose. This is about the point even a peaceful man would grab her by the back of the neck and press her face against the glass case over Article VII of the Constitution in the National Archives. Hawly, with her nose pressed firmly over the date reference to Christ, would merely close her eyes and repeat it over and over again, "There is no reference to God in the Constitution. There is no reference to God in the Constitution".

Arguing with Hollie is an exercise in absolute futility. She would continue to deny gravity, even as she was falling from a building to her death. I can just hear her, "It's true. Gravity isn't real."

Hawly, the space below is where you now resort to ad hominem attacks as usual.

 

[UltimateReality]

The Constitution does not mention "God" or "Jehovah" or "Jesus" or "Messiah" or "Christ" at all. Religious test oaths are forever banned, though.

Hey Strawboy, it does mention Christ in Article VII in the date. And why not add capital LORD to your list above?? Oh yeah, cause then you'd be

WRONG!

 

[UltimateReality]

The conservative Christian right makes some basic mistakes. Among them are: that they are anything like the Christians of the first century; that the Founders and their generation are anything like them today.

The basic heresy of the Christian evangelicals and fundamentalists of our day is their mistaken beliefs that they represent the will of the Christian God and that they reflect the will of the Founders.

The reflect neither.

Oh poor Stankey. Once again you ASSume things which aren't true and prejudicially stereotype people. I am not an evangelical or a fundamentalist. I go to a non-denominational seeker church. I follow the Bible, not the book of Mormon like you.

 

[UltimateReality]

It's true. There is not a single reference to god in the constitution.

The rest of your frantic diatribe has been addressed previously.

You still have provided no proof that Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, or Allan ever denied being Jewish.

I have no need to provide that, you have chosen to prove you are an idiot, instead!

Show me a single reference to god in the constitution.

I'm sorry I have to say this. But you are just plain stupid. This has been done repeatedly even though you continue to deny it because you are insane.

 

[UltimateReality]

That's odd. The premise of your argument regarding Jefferson was that he never denied being christian.

Did you forget you made this repeated demand:



Did you forget you wrote that? I'm just using your (juvenile, silly, irrevelant, assinine) "standards" here.

So tell us, can you provide evidence where these men [Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, or Allan] denied they were Jewish?

Yo, idiot, that would have been at the same time they denied they were dogs and cats.

... or denied they were christian.

I sense your frustration. The answer you gave was reflexive and emotional. In that way it was not an answer at all, but an attempt to dismiss a legitimate question with ridicule rather than reason.

You obviously have a need to demand a standard of proof from others that you want to be excused from. I used your own standard of argumentation which now causes you to hurl childish insults.

How sad for you.

Only in your twisted dreams Hawly. You love to twist logic around and try to appear smart, thinking no one will notice. The reason your argument so very utterly stupid and ignorant is, the question of whether or not they are Jewish has never been raised. Jefferson, Franklin and Paine were not regularly seen attending Jewish synagogues or wearing Yamakah's, or lighting candles for Hanakah. You argument is an EPIC FAIL.

JakeStankey is claiming that even though they attended Christian churches and referenced Christian writings, that they weren't Christian. Logical4U, like me, sees the overwhelming evidence is that they behaved like Christians and engaged in Christian activities like going to church. Therefore, there would be no logical reason for them, as they exited the Christian church, to loudly proclaim, I am not a Muslim. But there would be a reason, if they truly were Deists, to clarify to those that saw them engaging in behaviors that would indicate they were, in fact, Christians, like quoting the NEW TESTAMENT of the Bible and praying, that one should not automatically assume because they walk like a duck and talk like a duck, that they could in fact, just be pretending to be a duck.

Franklin quoted the New Testament of the Bible, and not just the New Testament, he quoted Christ!!!! Muslims, Jews, Hindu's, and Buddhists don't recognize the New Testament as a sacred writing. Here is definitive proof Franklin was a Christian...

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006642.jpg

"I have lived, sir, a long time, and, the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God governs in the affairs of men [This is not a Deist viewpoint]. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?

Jesus speaking in Matthew 10:

8 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[UltimateReality]

Commentary from the Library of Congress Section on Religion and the Federal Government...

That religion was not otherwise addressed in the Constitution did not make it an "irreligious" document any more than the Articles of Confederation was an "irreligious" document. The Constitution dealt with the church precisely as the Articles had, thereby maintaining, at the national level, the religious status quo. In neither document did the people yield any explicit power to act in the field of religion. But the absence of expressed powers did not prevent either the Continental-Confederation Congress or the Congress under the Constitution from sponsoring a program to support general, nonsectarian religion.