Wow, Harris is out of her mind.

[jillian]

I'm neither liberal nor Christian........and I find there are individuals/extremists of both persuasions (Christian and non-Christian) that "feel the need to ram their beliefs down everyone else's throats". I find both to be offensive.

However, I believe everyone has the right to lay out the foundation of their belief system, and those who are reading or listening should be the ones to discern what is true for themselves. It becomes offensive when one or the other starts referring to those who do not agree with their beliefs as "bat-shit crazy" and other negative connotations.

If you go back to my post, I think you'll see that I was responding to thehawk's post. the words "bat shit crazy" were his, not mine. He said "all libs think Christians are bat-shit crazy". I pointed out that I know many liberal and moderate Christians and would not use the term he suggested.

I'm not quite sure how hawk's derisive sentiments got attributed to me, but I read through threads fast sometimes, too.

 

[CharlestonChad]

Christianity is not "religion". That's what you're not grasping.

good luck backing up that statement

 

[CharlestonChad]

People are what they believe in --- they are a compiliation of their values and ethical belief system. I think hanging those beliefs and values at the door is why our government is so corrupt.

Our gov. is designed to seperate religion and gov. activities, which is why our nation is so great. Nations that do not do this have not been as successful (economically and democratically) as America.

 

[Hobbit]

Our gov. is designed to seperate religion and gov. activities, which is why our nation is so great. Nations that do not do this have not been as successful (economically and democratically) as America.

You've got it all wrong. Any religion that's worth its salt is a way of life, not just something you can stow in a closet when it fits your purpose. As such, seperating 'religion' from government only serves to integrate government with the religion of atheism. What our government does is protect religion and government from each other, primarily so that there's no church run by the government and there's no church people are required to join. The ridiculous extreme its being taken to now is just of the verge of forbidding government employees from using their salaries to give to churches. I fail to see how Christmas trees, crosses on city seals (that were originally founded as religious colonies) or ancient codes of law mentioned in the Bible being displayed at buildings of law are somehow threats to the integrity of the government. You people act as though saying a prayer on public land will suddenly trigger the FBI enforcing Christianity at gunpoint, but I know that's not the case. I also know that you know its not the case, so I must ask, "What is is about the Christian religion that scares you so much?"

And don't give me any of this crap about you not having favoritism towards any one religion. Islam is taught, in all its gory detail, in government schools while history books omit the true reason for Thanksgiving. Muslims can wear a full shoufa, yet other students are forbidden from even wearing the colors red and green during the month of December. So, why Christianity?

 

[CharlestonChad]

You've got it all wrong. Any religion that's worth its salt is a way of life, not just something you can stow in a closet when it fits your purpose.

Stowing it in that closet when one decides on how to vote is the way it should be. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

As such, seperating 'religion' from government only serves to integrate government with the religion of atheism.

Calling atheism a religion is like calling a non-theif a theif.

What our government does is protect religion and government from each other, primarily so that there's no church run by the government and there's no church people are required to join.

Exactly, no theocracy. If religion is the basis for passing laws, then that's almost as bad as a theocracy.

The ridiculous extreme its being taken to now is just of the verge of forbidding government employees from using their salaries to give to churches.

Do you have a link? I haven't heard of this. If it's true, then that is ashame.

I fail to see how Christmas trees, crosses on city seals (that were originally founded as religious colonies) or ancient codes of law mentioned in the Bible being displayed at buildings of law are somehow threats to the integrity of the government.

Either every religion gets to display their symbols, or no religion gets to. It's all about equality.

You people act as though saying a prayer on public land will suddenly trigger the FBI enforcing Christianity at gunpoint, but I know that's not the case. I also know that you know its not the case, so I must ask,

Who's against saying a prayer on public land? Don't public schools still have a moment of silence? Unless somethings changed in the last few years, any kid of any religion can pray in school during the moment of silence.

"What is is about the Christian religion that scares you so much?"

Religion scares me, not just Christianity. Good people have done bad things in the name of their religion. I fear that religion will be the demise of modern civilization. The media and secular groups attack Christianity because it is the biggest religion in America.

And don't give me any of this crap about you not having favoritism towards any one religion. Islam is taught, in all its gory detail, in government schools while history books omit the true reason for Thanksgiving. Muslims can wear a full shoufa, yet other students are forbidden from even wearing the colors red and green during the month of December. So, why Christianity?

I went to a public school and we were never taught about Islam. I don't think I've even heard of a middle or high school teaching kids about religion unless students enrolled in a religious studies class.

What is the true reason for Thanksgiving? I haven't taken any WesternCiv or AmericanHist classes, so I just assumed it was a secular holiday.

Do you have a link on the info given about kids not being allowed to wear red and green in December?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Christianity is not "religion". That's what you're not grasping.

I don't get what you are saying here. Christianity is not a religion? Or Christianity isn't synonomous with religion. Please clarify and explain.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

You've got it all wrong. Any religion that's worth its salt is a way of life, not just something you can stow in a closet when it fits your purpose. As such, seperating 'religion' from government only serves to integrate government with the religion of atheism. What our government does is protect religion and government from each other, primarily so that there's no church run by the government and there's no church people are required to join. The ridiculous extreme its being taken to now is just of the verge of forbidding government employees from using their salaries to give to churches. I fail to see how Christmas trees, crosses on city seals (that were originally founded as religious colonies) or ancient codes of law mentioned in the Bible being displayed at buildings of law are somehow threats to the integrity of the government. You people act as though saying a prayer on public land will suddenly trigger the FBI enforcing Christianity at gunpoint, but I know that's not the case. I also know that you know its not the case, so I must ask, "What is is about the Christian religion that scares you so much?"

And don't give me any of this crap about you not having favoritism towards any one religion. Islam is taught, in all its gory detail, in government schools while history books omit the true reason for Thanksgiving. Muslims can wear a full shoufa, yet other students are forbidden from even wearing the colors red and green during the month of December. So, why Christianity?

Seperation of Church and State has nothing to do with what your personal religion is. I agree with you that athiests have gone a little too far in seperating the two, but what Harris has said is inexcusable. I personally find it appalling that Christianity has found a home in politics. Growing up Southern Baptist, I was taught that the business of Christianity is salvation. Bringing the lost to Christ. How does getting elected to Congress accomplish this? How does electing christian to government office bring more followers to Christ? It doesn't. Using Christianity as a platform for office is disgraceful. Using any religion as a platform for office is disgraceful. Let your faith decide how you vote. Don't let it get you elected.

 

[Avatar4321]

Our gov. is designed to seperate religion and gov. activities, which is why our nation is so great. Nations that do not do this have not been as successful (economically and democratically) as America.

Actually our nation was designed to prevent government form interfering with the practice of religion. The Founders clearly expected religious people to run for office and for religious people to vote according to their religious convictions. And the check for that was that other religious and non-religious voters would vote against it.

There is no clear united religious group in American politics that is a majority regardless what anyone says. If any group wanted to pass something they have to get enough people in the nation to agree with them to pass it. And if they can do that, then a majority want it done that way and the majority should rule. That is the entire point of representative governments.

 

[Avatar4321]

I went to a public school and we were never taught about Islam. I don't think I've even heard of a middle or high school teaching kids about religion unless students enrolled in a religious studies class.

What is the true reason for Thanksgiving? I haven't taken any WesternCiv or AmericanHist classes, so I just assumed it was a secular holiday.

You were never taught about Islam in school? What public school did you go to?

The true reason for Thanksgiving is the Pilgrims implemented capitalist ideas and had an over abundance and invited the Indians to come share in their bountiful harvest and give thanks to God. Who exactly did you think we are supposed to be giving thanks to if it wasnt God? The government?

 

[CharlestonChad]

You were never taught about Islam in school? What public school did you go to?

Nope. I went to a large public school and took all honors classes, but we were never told to study anything relating to Islam.

The true reason for Thanksgiving is the Pilgrims implemented capitalist ideas and had an over abundance and invited the Indians to come share in their bountiful harvest and give thanks to God. Who exactly did you think we are supposed to be giving thanks to if it wasnt God? The government?

Ohhhhhhh.

 

[jillian]

You were never taught about Islam in school? What public school did you go to?

The true reason for Thanksgiving is the Pilgrims implemented capitalist ideas and had an over abundance and invited the Indians to come share in their bountiful harvest and give thanks to God. Who exactly did you think we are supposed to be giving thanks to if it wasnt God? The government?

FWIW, I was never taught about Islam in school either... not in public school, not in university and not in law school.

*Edit* Even my classes in mid-east studies only touched upon Islam from a political and not theological perspective (except to the extent of jihad being a political goal).

As for the Pilgrims, what does that have to do with what the GOVERNMENT is allowed to do under the Constitution? Even during the Founding Fathers' time, the religious zealots wanted a "Christian country".... which was the exact reason that government was prohibited from endorsing ANY religion. What people do in their homes, their places of worship and among their friends is their own business... but it has no place in government.

 

[sitarro]

Nope. I went to a large public school and took all honors classes, but we were never told to study anything relating to Islam.

Well I guess you are living proof that one can be smart enough to get through "honors" classes and not have a clue about real world issues. Says a lot about what passes for "honors" classes in public school. Quick...do you know who the Vice President of the United States is? The Secretary of State? Secretary of Defense?

Ohhhhhhh.

So you didn't even learn what Thanksgiving was about in "honors" classes. I guess if you get a Rhodes scholarship you won't have enough common sense to not screw around with a subordinate employee in your office either. Do you know what the definition of "is" is?

 

[sitarro]

FWIW, I was never taught about Islam in school either... not in public school, not in university and not in law school.

As for the Pilgrims, what does that have to do with what the GOVERNMENT is allowed to do under the Constitution? Even during the Founding Fathers' time, the religious zealots wanted a "Christian country".... which was the exact reason that government was prohibited from endorsing ANY religion. What people do in their homes, their places of worship and among their friends is their own business... but it has no place in government.

Why is it against the law to murder? How about to steal (unless of course you are a politician)? Prostitution? Why isn't killing a very young offspring considered murder? Why is it not alright to kill a murderer that has been judged guilty by his peers but OK to kill a very young offspring that is perfectly innocent of any crime? Weren't these laws originated by religious zealots?

Just curious what that incredible legal mind of yours has to say about these questions Jilli....any answers?

Oh and I think the statement about government endorsing ANY religion is your interpretation, I believe the Founding Fathers were trying to prevent the Federal Government from FORMING a religion, you know, like the Church of England.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

I disagree. You've made accusations and when pressed for evidence, so far, only offered up those same accusations as evidence.

Not true. I've given you plenty of evidence with some cases already. I don't have the time or wherewithal to look up more cases all over the states. However, here's some more data specific info:

"In his book Twilight of Liberty, William donohue wrote, "Of the 49 recomendations the [Attorney General's Commission on Pornography] made on the subject of child pornography, the ACLU passed no judgement on four of them, found 19 acceptable, found 15 as posing 'substantial threats to civil liberties,' and declared 11 to be an 'inappropriate focus on the fruits of coercion and abuse,' as opposed to coercion itself. A sampling of the ACLU objections reveals a desire to crush the effective enforcement of the child pornography laws.

In New York vs Ferber the ACLU submitted a friend-of-the-court brief to the U.S. Supreme Court, arguing that child pornography is protected by the First Amendment. The ACLU added that no government should be allowed to limit the distribution of child pornography between "consenting adults"."

This is nonsense. The bible contains a story about murder (Cain and Abel). Since you support the bible, are we to assume you support murder? Your inability to provide "direct cases" only further proves that you have a much weaker case against the ACLU than the one that exists solely in your imagination.

And the Bible also condemns murder. Where does this pornographic poetry condemn necrophilia? The ACLU supports in this case the idea of school professors (supported by our taxes) being able to indoctrinate our young people with pornographic material - under the guise of "free speech". I'm not buying it. Even school professors need to submit to the standards of the community regarding pornography.

As I stated earlier, they opposed the ban because it included abortions outside the scope of partial-birth.

Yeah, yeah, yarn me another one. The ACLU is well-known for its "weasel" tactics which you are obviously adopting for yourself.

 

[Nienna]

good luck backing up that statement

Christianity involves a set of religious beliefs, but Christianity is an individual relationship with God/Christ.

 

[Nienna]

Stowing it in that closet when one decides on how to vote is the way it should be. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

A person's religious beliefs are integrated with a person's perception of good and bad. One cannot leave these behind when voting, unless issues do not matter to that person at all. An intelligent voter will vote for the people whom are the best representatives of that voter's beliefs.

Calling atheism a religion is like calling a non-theif a theif.

Is Buddhism a religion? Buddhists do not believe in God. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. This is a belief about God; therefore, it could be considered a spiritual or religious belief.

Exactly, no theocracy. If religion is the basis for passing laws, then that's almost as bad as a theocracy.

A theocracy is a government in which people of ONE religion CONTROL the law, and the populace is FORCED to adopt a set of religious practices or face persecution. People using their religious beliefs to guide their actions (including voting) is NOT a theocracy.

Religion scares me, not just Christianity. Good people have done bad things in the name of their religion. I fear that religion will be the demise of modern civilization. The media and secular groups attack Christianity because it is the biggest religion in America.

But look at all the GOOD things done in the name of religion. Certainly, most anything can be turned to evil. But I have seen far more GOOD things come out of religion than bad... basic law & order, self-control, hospitals, schools, charities, etc.

What is the true reason for Thanksgiving? I haven't taken any WesternCiv or AmericanHist classes, so I just assumed it was a secular holiday.

WOW! Just wow... The Pilgrims landed in America, facing a winter with little food, shelter, many people were sick, a huge portion of the population died. However, the local natives took pity on these settlers, showed them how to plant crops the following Spring. That harvest season, the Pilgrims invited these natives to a feast thrown in thanksgiving toward the Christian God for allowing the Pilgrims to survive and settle in a land where they could worship Him freely.

 

[Nienna]

Seperation of Church and State has nothing to do with what your personal religion is. I agree with you that athiests have gone a little too far in seperating the two, but what Harris has said is inexcusable. I personally find it appalling that Christianity has found a home in politics. Growing up Southern Baptist, I was taught that the business of Christianity is salvation. Bringing the lost to Christ. How does getting elected to Congress accomplish this? How does electing christian to government office bring more followers to Christ? It doesn't. Using Christianity as a platform for office is disgraceful. Using any religion as a platform for office is disgraceful. Let your faith decide how you vote. Don't let it get you elected.

The business of individual Christians is NOT salvation. The business of each individual Christian is to do the will of God, moment-by-moment, in love and gratitude. Jesus saves, not any church group.

God calls His people to be a light to the world, to show people how they are supposed to treat one another.

Politics is the business of making and enforcing laws. What are laws? Codified values.

If Christians segregate themselves from politics, they allow the moral fabric of the nation to disintegrate. If they will not stand up for what they believe is right, then "wrong" will take over. A politician who identifies him/herself as a Christian is simply making a statement about what kind of laws he/she will support. If the majority of the people oppose this, the politican will not be elected. So what is the problem with identifying ones' self with a group? If the politician says "I am a Republican," that says something about the type of laws the person will support. Identifying with certain religions is simply an easy way for constituents to understand what a politician stands for.

 

[MissileMan]

Is Buddhism a religion? Buddhists do not believe in God. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. This is a belief about God; therefore, it could be considered a spiritual or religious belief.

This argument fails in so many ways, but the best example of why it fails is this: Are you prepared to say that "not believing" in ghosts is a religion also?

A theocracy is a government in which people of ONE religion CONTROL the law, and the populace is FORCED to adopt a set of religious practices or face persecution. People using their religious beliefs to guide their actions (including voting) is NOT a theocracy.

Agreed