With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?

[Saigon]

Jon -

Please remember to use links to back up your claims. Otherwise people will think they are jokes.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Jon -

Please remember to use links to back up your claims. Otherwise people will think they are jokes.

buzz off loser

 

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi -

Please try to stick to what is posted. I did not claim that countries with a lot of guns have high suicide rates.

You claim that guns "enable" things like suicide. Japan shows that guns themselves do not enable suicide. People enable suicide.
IOW there is no causal relationship between crime, suicide or anything else and gun ownership.

 

[Redfish]

There IS a whacko with an assault weapon problem. That's why a huge majority of the country wants background checks...

We already have background check laws. WTF is wrong with you?

 

[The Rabbi]

Jon -

Please remember to use links to back up your claims. Otherwise people will think they are jokes.

buzz off loser

Because when you did back up the claim (and it is obviously true) he would a) demean the source, b) deflect to something unrelated, c) wimp out and never be heard from until he posted the same nonsense elsewhere.

There is no persuading the incomprehending.

 

[DiamondDave]

There IS a whacko with an assault weapon problem. That's why a huge majority of the country wants background checks...

That means there is a PERSON problem, not a firearm problem.. the problem is the WHACKO.. not the ability for law abiding citizens to but a .223 semi auto with a 20 shot clip

idiot troll

 

[jon_berzerk]

Jon -

Please remember to use links to back up your claims. Otherwise people will think they are jokes.

buzz off loser

Because when you did back up the claim (and it is obviously true) he would a) demean the source, b) deflect to something unrelated, c) wimp out and never be heard from until he posted the same nonsense elsewhere.

There is no persuading the incomprehending.

yup and around and round in circles it goes

the stats are out there for anyone to see

 

[Saigon]

Rabbi -

To be honest, I'm not sure you are going to be able to understand this, but I'll do my best.

Because guns enable suicide, in countries where guns are often used to commit suicide, the ratio of successful suicides is higher.

This does NOT mean that the suicide rate is higher.

What it means is that a higher % of people who attempt suicide will actually die.

IOW there is no causal relationship between crime, suicide or anything else and gun ownership.

Of course not - but because of the above fact, the chances of death from suicide is higher in American households where a gun is owned. I'd be happy to post the research on this if you haven't already read it.

 

[DiamondDave]

Rabbi -

Actually, no, it makes perfect sense. Guns do not cause violence - they ENABLE violence. In other words, they allow people who may wish to commit violence to do so more successfully.

That is why countries with more guns have more morders, of course.

The stats here don't matter.

Well, obviously they do - but what you mean is that they do not back up your case, hence you ignore them.

So does a knife, a machete, or household chemicals

What does not back up your case as a firearm restriction nut is reality

 

[Granny]

[.

take out the areas with leftist strict gun control laws

and the number drops way down

wise up America we do not have a gun problem

we have a leftist problem[/QUOTE]

I don't own a gun but I certainly understand why people want to be armed. Guns don't kill, people do. I actually thought all states had criminal background checks on gun purchases, but maybe not. In any event, street-type gun toters don't buy guns legally ... they get them by other means and will keep right on doing that despite any "stricter gun laws."

There have been horrific incidents involving mass killings - not the least of which is the recent tragedy in MA. But stricter gun laws are not going to stop the slaughter. It's a means of "getting one's foot in the door;" if stricter gun laws can be reached, such as doing away with assault weapons, there will be "get rid of this, get rid of that" down the road. Before you know it, you have a unarmed, easy to control populace.

Maybe a better approach would be to go after the underground suppliers; how about felons who KNOW they're not to be in possession of firearms? Even if they were found "not guilty" of a murder charge ... why not an automatic 10 years just for the possession? As to the mental illness issue, can it really be proved that someone who has some mental health issues WILL go out and kill? Who's going to set the standard for "mental illness?" The government? "Mental illness" covers a hell of a range of issues, many of which present no danger to anyone. Someone may just need a little help to get over an issue that can be resolved.

Sorry - I seem to have screwed up my quote.

 

[DiamondDave]

Rabbi -

To be honest, I'm not sure you are going to be able to understand this, but I'll do my best.

Because guns enable suicide, in countries where guns are often used to commit suicide, the ratio of successful suicides is higher.

This does NOT mean that the suicide rate is higher.

What it means is that a higher % of people who attempt suicide will actually die.

IOW there is no causal relationship between crime, suicide or anything else and gun ownership.

Of course not - but because of the above fact, the chances of death from suicide is higher in American households where a gun is owned. I'd be happy to post the research on this if you haven't already read it.

Yes.. because people cannot easily do it by stepping in front of a train, taking an overdose of easily obtained illegal drugs, jumping off a 10 story building, etc

 

[Wildman]

Arming against a fascist government that thinks it can take our rights away. Why would you be against the people doing this unless you're for that government?

Because you know it's based on paranoid delusions fed to you by people who make money out of your fear.

As much as people are triumphing the fall in gun crime - still 50,000 Americans will be deliberately shot this year.

Spoon-

but gun violence is dropping. it really speaks a lot to the fact that people owning guns is not the issue.

And yet the US has 20 times as many guns as the UK - and 20 times as many gun-related homicides. Or do you think that is coincidence?

Mr. Hellstinky, where do you come up with this shit ?

 

[jon_berzerk]

[.

take out the areas with leftist strict gun control laws

and the number drops way down

wise up America we do not have a gun problem

we have a leftist problem

I don't own a gun but I certainly understand why people want to be armed. Guns don't kill, people do. I actually thought all states had criminal background checks on gun purchases, but maybe not. In any event, street-type gun toters don't buy guns legally ... they get them by other means and will keep right on doing that despite any "stricter gun laws."

There have been horrific incidents involving mass killings - not the least of which is the recent tragedy in MA. But stricter gun laws are not going to stop the slaughter. It's a means of "getting one's foot in the door;" if stricter gun laws can be reached, such as doing away with assault weapons, there will be "get rid of this, get rid of that" down the road. Before you know it, you have a unarmed, easy to control populace.

Maybe a better approach would be to go after the underground suppliers; how about felons who KNOW they're not to be in possession of firearms? Even if they were found "not guilty" of a murder charge ... why not an automatic 10 years just for the possession? As to the mental illness issue, can it really be proved that someone who has some mental health issues WILL go out and kill? Who's going to set the standard for "mental illness?" The government? "Mental illness" covers a hell of a range of issues, many of which present no danger to anyone. Someone may just need a little help to get over an issue that can be resolved.[/QUOTE]

enforcement of current laws would be great

2% of federal firearms crimes get prosecuted

yet they beg for more gun control laws

 

[Saigon]

Dave -

Yes.. because people cannot easily do it by stepping in front of a train, taking an overdose of easily obtained illegal drugs, jumping off a 10 story building, etc

Statistically - they don't. Probably because not everyone has a train at hand when they feel suicidal.

What we know as a plain, simple, proven fact is that more successful suicides involve guns than most other methods, and that guns feature more in US suicides than in most other countries, because the guns are so easily available.

Reduce guns - reduce sucide. Australia has actually proven this as a statistical fact.

 

[Saigon]

Wildman -

Mr. Hellstinky, where do you come up with this shit ?

They are called facts.

48,676 people were intentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
18,610 people were unintentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
17,352 suicides (intentionally shot themselves who died) (CDC)
12,632 criminal firearm deaths (killed in a crime by guns) (CDC)

How many people get shot by someone using a gun each day in the US

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Wildman -

Mr. Hellstinky, where do you come up with this shit ?

They are called facts.

48,676 people were intentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
18,610 people were unintentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
17,352 suicides (intentionally shot themselves who died) (CDC)
12,632 criminal firearm deaths (killed in a crime by guns) (CDC)

How many people get shot by someone using a gun each day in the US

Out of 314 million. You have no argument. It's like arguing to "ban" sugar because we have an obesity epidemic.

 

[Wildman]

Wildman -

Mr. Hellstinky, where do you come up with this shit ?

They are called facts.

48,676 people were intentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
18,610 people were unintentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
17,352 suicides (intentionally shot themselves who died) (CDC)
12,632 criminal firearm deaths (killed in a crime by guns) (CDC)

How many people get shot by someone using a gun each day in the US

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.", Mark Twain

also,

Figures Don’t Lie, But Liars Do Figure !

that is what i think about your "statistics" !!

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?

With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?
A Pew study released Tuesday finds that Americans think gun violence has escalated when in reality it's way down from two decades ago. The violence has dropped, meanwhile, even as gun ownership has increased.


Mass shootings, frantic gun-buying, and more Americans legally carrying guns on the street all point to a country fighting a gun violence epidemic, right?

Not necessarily.

As part of a broader trend of declining crime, gun violence in America – while still high relative to other Western countries – has dropped by 49 percent from 1993 to 2011, while nonfatal gun crimes dropped by 69 percent, according to the US Justice Department.

This is some serious twisted logic.
Murder rates are down. Gun ownership is up. But guns are bad and kill people. But we now have more guns so by a libs logic we should have more murders. But we dont. But we should......
I'm surprised their heads dont explode trying to rationalize it.

 

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi -

To be honest, I'm not sure you are going to be able to understand this, but I'll do my best.

Because guns enable suicide, in countries where guns are often used to commit suicide, the ratio of successful suicides is higher.

This does NOT mean that the suicide rate is higher.

What it means is that a higher % of people who attempt suicide will actually die.

IOW there is no causal relationship between crime, suicide or anything else and gun ownership.

Of course not - but because of the above fact, the chances of death from suicide is higher in American households where a gun is owned. I'd be happy to post the research on this if you haven't already read it.

Please back up your assertions with citations. Otherwise we all laugh at them.

Houses where toothbrushes are present also have high levels of suicide. I guess toothbrushes enable suicides.

 

[Katzndogz]

The facts are indisputable. More guns, less crime.