Wind and Hot Air..

[flacaltenn]

Lemme simplify that last post..

What RockPort GENERATED is just business news. What Rockport actually CONSUMED -- is the only relevent part of the claim. And indeed, 2 days a week or more (statistically) and maybe twice a day for hours, they were a fossil fuel consumer like everyone else around them. That in fact contradicts their "100% wind energy city" status..

But the more important bit is -- they're happy to pump this charade for all it's worth -- while leaving the grid mgrs and their neighbors' coal plant next door hanging on for dear life trying to juggle it all..

So when the neighbor decides that they can't rely on RockPort as a solid customer anymore and buckles to the EPA on the coal plant. They will replace it with something better matched to the ACTUAL grid needs and RockPort may get to have early cold dinners on Wednes and Fridays. And play shadow puppets by candlelight every 30 minutes til the wind kicks up..

I could dance my way thru "The 1st Home in Tennessee to be 100% Powered by Christmas Trees" by going around the county in early January and collecting Christmas Trees to sell to the local incinerator/boiler (biomass conversion -- very Green with the recycling aspect and all)..

 

[Cimerian]

Yeah, 12MW is a fair bit. What's the rating on the typical home turbines you're looking at? Oh, and bear in mind they only put that out if the wind's blowing constantly at the specced speed. How often does it do that on your roof?

I think I said 12 MW isn't crap.

No, you said it isn't much. Make up your mind.

I've generated over 150MW myself personnelly.

Yay for you.

My main factor is the cost of the towers really. The generators as of now could peak at 4kw

Peak at 4kW? Oooh. That will run 2 and 2/3 hair dryers. IF the wind is blowing. Hard.

Hardly worth the money, that. Get yourself a natural-gas fired generator with an ATS and hook it to the gas line, if you have one. You can run your whole house and it won't matter if the wind isn't blowing.

Isn't much isn't crap what's the diff? Do you even know what a KW is?

 

[Cimerian]

Cimerian::

If your object is to get off grid with wind -- go for it.. However, that's going to be an environmental disaster if everyone decides to have 3/4 ton of batteries in their basement. All with limited charge/recharge lifetimes.

The wind charts for your area are already available. You know the generation curves for the turbines. There shouldn't be any excuse when you find out that you're just a highly subsidized power station that can't light your bathroom more than 3 nights a week. (At least with solar off-grid -- you can over-install and know that SOME energy is coming in the morning)

And how is this anarchist model of homes transmitting power to the grid with wind/solar gonna work?
(Answer) -- with heavy subsidies for the equipment and the juice. Seems to me we've talked our way into imagining scenarios that haven't been design reviewed..

Now if your neighborhood has one of those compact buried nuclear boxes -- that's a different story. We all chip in and get a guaranteed level source of juice 24/7/365.

I'm not trying to get off the grid but that would be nice. To be completely off grid I would yes need the batteries and generators that I already talked about. I simply think the average American could generate enough elect per day to sell back to the util companies that we could become the suppliers instead of the end users.

 

[flacaltenn]

Cimerian::

If your object is to get off grid with wind -- go for it.. However, that's going to be an environmental disaster if everyone decides to have 3/4 ton of batteries in their basement. All with limited charge/recharge lifetimes.

The wind charts for your area are already available. You know the generation curves for the turbines. There shouldn't be any excuse when you find out that you're just a highly subsidized power station that can't light your bathroom more than 3 nights a week. (At least with solar off-grid -- you can over-install and know that SOME energy is coming in the morning)

And how is this anarchist model of homes transmitting power to the grid with wind/solar gonna work?
(Answer) -- with heavy subsidies for the equipment and the juice. Seems to me we've talked our way into imagining scenarios that haven't been design reviewed..

Now if your neighborhood has one of those compact buried nuclear boxes -- that's a different story. We all chip in and get a guaranteed level source of juice 24/7/365.

I'm not trying to get off the grid but that would be nice. To be completely off grid I would yes need the batteries and generators that I already talked about. I simply think the average American could generate enough elect per day to sell back to the util companies that we could become the suppliers instead of the end users.

Then it's purely a business decision. Wind seems to offer less chance of true grid independence than solar. And you have days and possibly weeks with little or no profit and a huge up-front cost. Last business I want to be in is something that is so heavily subsidized right now. The market for wind is also gonna change as we reach the "saturation point" for sporadic wind contributions to the grid. The cost to efficiently mix it in will create another resistance point. Why not just buy a TON of GM?

 

[Cimerian]

Cimerian::

If your object is to get off grid with wind -- go for it.. However, that's going to be an environmental disaster if everyone decides to have 3/4 ton of batteries in their basement. All with limited charge/recharge lifetimes.

The wind charts for your area are already available. You know the generation curves for the turbines. There shouldn't be any excuse when you find out that you're just a highly subsidized power station that can't light your bathroom more than 3 nights a week. (At least with solar off-grid -- you can over-install and know that SOME energy is coming in the morning)

And how is this anarchist model of homes transmitting power to the grid with wind/solar gonna work?
(Answer) -- with heavy subsidies for the equipment and the juice. Seems to me we've talked our way into imagining scenarios that haven't been design reviewed..

Now if your neighborhood has one of those compact buried nuclear boxes -- that's a different story. We all chip in and get a guaranteed level source of juice 24/7/365.

I'm not trying to get off the grid but that would be nice. To be completely off grid I would yes need the batteries and generators that I already talked about. I simply think the average American could generate enough elect per day to sell back to the util companies that we could become the suppliers instead of the end users.

Then it's purely a business decision. Wind seems to offer less chance of true grid independence than solar. And you have days and possibly weeks with little or no profit and a huge up-front cost. Last business I want to be in is something that is so heavily subsidized right now. The market for wind is also gonna change as we reach the "saturation point" for sporadic wind contributions to the grid. The cost to efficiently mix it in will create another resistance point. Why not just buy a TON of GM?

Well Duh. But sorry Wind is better than solar

 

[flacaltenn]

Cimerian:

Here's a little inspiration for ya as launch your windy campaign..

Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."
"What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.

"Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."

I - Sancho - will be right behind you Sir.. (NOT)

 

[daveman]

I think I said 12 MW isn't crap.

No, you said it isn't much. Make up your mind.

Yay for you.

My main factor is the cost of the towers really. The generators as of now could peak at 4kw

Peak at 4kW? Oooh. That will run 2 and 2/3 hair dryers. IF the wind is blowing. Hard.

Hardly worth the money, that. Get yourself a natural-gas fired generator with an ATS and hook it to the gas line, if you have one. You can run your whole house and it won't matter if the wind isn't blowing.

Isn't much isn't crap what's the diff? Do you even know what a KW is?

Do you? It's a kilowatt. A thousand watts. A hair dryer draws 1.5kW. Go look, if you don't believe me.

4kW isn't enough to power your home. A home with a 200 amp service can draw a maximum of 24kW. You're almost never going to draw that much current in the house, though, so you could easily get by with a 20kW generator.

Home Depot has a 20kW unit with an automatic transfer switch for $4,589.00. Runs on LP or NG. On NG, it's de-rated to 18kW.

How much does your wind turbine that's one-fifth the rated output cost? Don't forget the price of the battery bank and inverters, too.

 

[uscitizen]

No, you said it isn't much. Make up your mind.

Yay for you.

Peak at 4kW? Oooh. That will run 2 and 2/3 hair dryers. IF the wind is blowing. Hard.

Hardly worth the money, that. Get yourself a natural-gas fired generator with an ATS and hook it to the gas line, if you have one. You can run your whole house and it won't matter if the wind isn't blowing.

Isn't much isn't crap what's the diff? Do you even know what a KW is?

Do you? It's a kilowatt. A thousand watts. A hair dryer draws 1.5kW. Go look, if you don't believe me.

4kW isn't enough to power your home. A home with a 200 amp service can draw a maximum of 24kW. You're almost never going to draw that much current in the house, though, so you could easily get by with a 20kW generator.

Home Depot has a 20kW unit with an automatic transfer switch for $4,589.00. Runs on LP or NG. On NG, it's de-rated to 18kW.

How much does your wind turbine that's one-fifth the rated output cost? Don't forget the price of the battery bank and inverters, too.

How much does that 20KW genny cost to run? Over 1 gal per hour of fuel.
How much does a wind turbine cost to run?

 

[Cimerian]

No, you said it isn't much. Make up your mind.

Yay for you.

Peak at 4kW? Oooh. That will run 2 and 2/3 hair dryers. IF the wind is blowing. Hard.

Hardly worth the money, that. Get yourself a natural-gas fired generator with an ATS and hook it to the gas line, if you have one. You can run your whole house and it won't matter if the wind isn't blowing.

Isn't much isn't crap what's the diff? Do you even know what a KW is?

Do you? It's a kilowatt. A thousand watts. A hair dryer draws 1.5kW. Go look, if you don't believe me.

4kW isn't enough to power your home. A home with a 200 amp service can draw a maximum of 24kW. You're almost never going to draw that much current in the house, though, so you could easily get by with a 20kW generator.

Home Depot has a 20kW unit with an automatic transfer switch for $4,589.00. Runs on LP or NG. On NG, it's de-rated to 18kW.

How much does your wind turbine that's one-fifth the rated output cost? Don't forget the price of the battery bank and inverters, too.

Well now I know you are a moron. A 200 amp service at 240 volts is 48kw goofball. Not what it would actually draw but then again I bet you have never held a meter in your hand have you? Go back to reading your labels and leave the real work to those who know something dingbat.

 

[Cimerian]

No, you said it isn't much. Make up your mind.

Yay for you.

Peak at 4kW? Oooh. That will run 2 and 2/3 hair dryers. IF the wind is blowing. Hard.

Hardly worth the money, that. Get yourself a natural-gas fired generator with an ATS and hook it to the gas line, if you have one. You can run your whole house and it won't matter if the wind isn't blowing.

Isn't much isn't crap what's the diff? Do you even know what a KW is?

Do you? It's a kilowatt. A thousand watts. A hair dryer draws 1.5kW. Go look, if you don't believe me.

4kW isn't enough to power your home. A home with a 200 amp service can draw a maximum of 24kW. You're almost never going to draw that much current in the house, though, so you could easily get by with a 20kW generator.

Home Depot has a 20kW unit with an automatic transfer switch for $4,589.00. Runs on LP or NG. On NG, it's de-rated to 18kW.

How much does your wind turbine that's one-fifth the rated output cost? Don't forget the price of the battery bank and inverters, too.

Oh and to get 4 kw of wind generators it costs roughly 2500 bucks. Like I said before though the generators are not the expensive part. Getting the towers to set them on and wiring them in the circuit are the expensive part. You buy your generator that you still need to pay for fuel for. you then pay to have it installed. In 10 years we will find out who is better off. I'm ashamed to call myself a fiscal conservative with idiots like you unwilling to look at the math behind this tech.

 

[uscitizen]

I checked and at full output a 10KW genset will consume about 2 gal of gas an hour. at 3.50/gal that is 84 per day and 2,520 per month.
And the max life expectancy of the engine running the genset would be about 1 year max running fulltime.

No wonder right wingers cannot control spending and such.

 

[Cimerian]

I checked and at full output a 10KW genset will consume about 2 gal of gas an hour. at 3.50/gal that is 84 per day and 2,520 per month.
And the max life expectancy of the engine running the genset would be about 1 year max running fulltime.

No wonder right wingers cannot control spending and such.

When considering spending I would be considered a "right winger". When can we stop worrying about party affiliation and start worrying about continuation of our race?

 

[uscitizen]

I checked and at full output a 10KW genset will consume about 2 gal of gas an hour. at 3.50/gal that is 84 per day and 2,520 per month.
And the max life expectancy of the engine running the genset would be about 1 year max running fulltime.

No wonder right wingers cannot control spending and such.

When considering spending I would be considered a "right winger". When can we stop worrying about party affiliation and start worrying about continuation of our race?

Ohh I agree, but there is little hope for that while the sheep march in their independent manner behind their political pundits. Which are increasingly also corporate pundits with profit in mind.

 

[flacaltenn]

I'm worried about the biz sense of selling a sporadic 4KW generator back to the grid.. It's gonna average maybe 1.2KW output or about 12 to 18 cents an hour (after the power company takes their cut) --- if you do the invertor and net metering correctly. But the truth is -- there's gonna be no excess to sell most all of the time. So the MATH is important here.

But it's not my adventure -- so I'm glad you're in charge. Just don't claim that your house is totally powered by the wind..

PS --- better warn your neighbors. They might object to the noise. Or maybe the neighbor might like the idea and decide to plop down one of those 2MW jobs that sounds like an idling turbo-prop commuter plane next door to you..

 

[Toronado3800]

No DEFENDERS???

First off, the article i posted said 1300 residents

2ndly subsides and tax breaks drying up do not a failure make

3rd , i'm a hands on type of fella flatone, and a master electrican with a rapport in alt energy as long as your arm. Granted, i've hooked up no cities to windmills , but i've seen what works for grid tie and stand alone residential systems

That said, I'm not about to argue with not wits waving whatever oilocracy propaganda looking to pick a fight over what they know so little of , and are so biased about , it would take YEARS for them to come up any appreciable speed of tolerable debate

You want to engage in that avenue, may i suggest you join a professional alt energy forum, where you may merrily scream your meager ascii brains out for any takers

regards

~S~

Dear Sparky...

I've been doing this for 20 years. I HAVE been in professional forums (is IEEE OK with you?) and I know you have been involved as well. I wouldn't call it bias. I'd call it analysis and logic and reason.

You see those daily production charts don't even begin to qualify wind turbines as an "alternative" to our current baseline generation methods. SURE -- if you can figure out how to react and plan a large grid load with sources that are there for 15 or 20 minutes at a time --- have at it .. If you can figure out how to use that energy to create a buffer fuel like hydrogen or hydropower -- have at it..

But it's time to blow off (pun intended) any pretense that this technology is an "alternative" capable of providing constant reliable power. And we need to figure out exactly where it DOES fit..

Europe IS backing off of their commitment to wind. And I don't think it's JUST because the economy currently sucks.. We need to get serious about what remains on the "alternatives" list...

Sir or madam, you would think if you had been on message boards before you would know it takes more than a half hour to get a response sometime.

I think wind has its place. As much as nuclear and coal. Just you are so childish folks want to disagree. Are you attempting to compel those who disagree with you to go vote? If you were supporting my cause I would tape your mouth shut for a month before an election. Just as Al Gore speaking on behalf of puppies could make them the main menue item at McDonalds...

Well you get the point.

Oh, and if you have a surplus of power you do something handy like pump water uphill to let it run down hill during peak hours or when the wind is not blowing.

Not a perfect system but you gotta figure in the cost of the trucks to carry the spent fuel rods to Yucca mountain, not to mention guarding it for a few years for nuclear. Coal, I guess you could attempt an emissions capture system. Solar has similar problems to wind but should work in Arizona..... Hydro is an environmental disaster in its own way...

What was the debate? I just find myself wanting to disagree with you.

 

[flacaltenn]

First off, the article i posted said 1300 residents

2ndly subsides and tax breaks drying up do not a failure make

3rd , i'm a hands on type of fella flatone, and a master electrican with a rapport in alt energy as long as your arm. Granted, i've hooked up no cities to windmills , but i've seen what works for grid tie and stand alone residential systems

That said, I'm not about to argue with not wits waving whatever oilocracy propaganda looking to pick a fight over what they know so little of , and are so biased about , it would take YEARS for them to come up any appreciable speed of tolerable debate

You want to engage in that avenue, may i suggest you join a professional alt energy forum, where you may merrily scream your meager ascii brains out for any takers

regards

~S~

Dear Sparky...

I've been doing this for 20 years. I HAVE been in professional forums (is IEEE OK with you?) and I know you have been involved as well. I wouldn't call it bias. I'd call it analysis and logic and reason.

You see those daily production charts don't even begin to qualify wind turbines as an "alternative" to our current baseline generation methods. SURE -- if you can figure out how to react and plan a large grid load with sources that are there for 15 or 20 minutes at a time --- have at it .. If you can figure out how to use that energy to create a buffer fuel like hydrogen or hydropower -- have at it..

But it's time to blow off (pun intended) any pretense that this technology is an "alternative" capable of providing constant reliable power. And we need to figure out exactly where it DOES fit..

Europe IS backing off of their commitment to wind. And I don't think it's JUST because the economy currently sucks.. We need to get serious about what remains on the "alternatives" list...

Sir or madam, you would think if you had been on message boards before you would know it takes more than a half hour to get a response sometime.

I think wind has its place. As much as nuclear and coal. Just you are so childish folks want to disagree. Are you attempting to compel those who disagree with you to go vote? If you were supporting my cause I would tape your mouth shut for a month before an election. Just as Al Gore speaking on behalf of puppies could make them the main menue item at McDonalds...

Well you get the point.

Oh, and if you have a surplus of power you do something handy like pump water uphill to let it run down hill during peak hours or when the wind is not blowing.

Not a perfect system but you gotta figure in the cost of the trucks to carry the spent fuel rods to Yucca mountain, not to mention guarding it for a few years for nuclear. Coal, I guess you could attempt an emissions capture system. Solar has similar problems to wind but should work in Arizona..... Hydro is an environmental disaster in its own way...

What was the debate? I just find myself wanting to disagree with you.

Well Toronado -- you did a pretty good job of disassembling that list of "alternative" energy sources that we've been blasted with for the past 20 years or so..

THAT was a large motivator for the topic. To question the very terminology of "alternative". But MOSTLY -- it was to refute a claim that was posted in another thread that this tiny town in Missouri was entirely "100% Wind Powered"..

To refute that, all one has to do is look at typical wind generation production charts and see that what was CONSUMED by that town was indeed a mix of various energy sources and they took the easy way out with the creative "eco" angle.

So we generally agree that the list of "alternatives" is somewhat overstated. I would also scratch geothermal as it is a dirty mining operation that is in many ways LESS clean than say nat gas extraction. Not truly green. But you're also somewhat misrepresenting the magnitude of the nuclear waste problem. Since an average house can be powered for a YEAR with just 0.7 ounce of nuclear fuel.. Tell me we can't handle that..

We can sit here and allow our energy policy to overemphasize solar and wind as the answer to all our energy needs. But I can't.. You're right. THere is a role for these as "peaker" sources. But they are not a BASELINE "alternative" for 24/7/365 worst case system design in all geographic locations..

Sorry you think that posting charts of the generation reliability of actual large scale wind farms is detrimental "to the cause". But I will continue to do stuff like that -- rather than participate in the normal USMB method of partisian rangling and ad hom attacks..

 

[Douger]

Good morning numbnuts. My lights aren't dim.Skystream 3.7 here.

 

[editec]

Turbine, baby turbine!

 

[daveman]

Isn't much isn't crap what's the diff? Do you even know what a KW is?

Do you? It's a kilowatt. A thousand watts. A hair dryer draws 1.5kW. Go look, if you don't believe me.

4kW isn't enough to power your home. A home with a 200 amp service can draw a maximum of 24kW. You're almost never going to draw that much current in the house, though, so you could easily get by with a 20kW generator.

Home Depot has a 20kW unit with an automatic transfer switch for $4,589.00. Runs on LP or NG. On NG, it's de-rated to 18kW.

How much does your wind turbine that's one-fifth the rated output cost? Don't forget the price of the battery bank and inverters, too.

How much does that 20KW genny cost to run? Over 1 gal per hour of fuel.
How much does a wind turbine cost to run?

It ain't cheap, once you figure in the lifetime cost of batteries.

 

[daveman]

Isn't much isn't crap what's the diff? Do you even know what a KW is?

Do you? It's a kilowatt. A thousand watts. A hair dryer draws 1.5kW. Go look, if you don't believe me.

4kW isn't enough to power your home. A home with a 200 amp service can draw a maximum of 24kW. You're almost never going to draw that much current in the house, though, so you could easily get by with a 20kW generator.

Home Depot has a 20kW unit with an automatic transfer switch for $4,589.00. Runs on LP or NG. On NG, it's de-rated to 18kW.

How much does your wind turbine that's one-fifth the rated output cost? Don't forget the price of the battery bank and inverters, too.

Well now I know you are a moron. A 200 amp service at 240 volts is 48kw goofball.

Yeah, I goofed. I was figuring 120VAC in.

So now, at 240VAC, your littley bitty turbine looks even MORE pathetic, doesn't it?

Not what it would actually draw but then again I bet you have never held a meter in your hand have you? Go back to reading your labels and leave the real work to those who know something dingbat.

You lose your bet.

Meanwhile, you never answered my question, here repeated and corrected:

How much does your wind turbine that's ONE-TENTH the rated output cost? Don't forget the price of the battery bank and inverters, too.

Here's a complete 6kW package, which is one-sixth of your home's 200A service rating.

It's $38,000.

Holy shit.