Why would anyone continue to claim the iraqi war was a failure?

[Kevinthedog]

Since I am an isolationist all I know is we need to get out of the Middle East, Period.

And destroy what evidence of wrongdoing was done our friends, relatives, and loved ones in NYC on 9/11/2001, plus risk a reattack if we are perceived as weak? I hope you rethink your position, unless you are a conscientious objector and cannot.

Saddam gave us no choice and the one thing Obama has done that I have supported was to finish the job
iraq was done when he took office
but he has kept the heat on those who wnat to harm us (the troops have )

well, this is startling clear and concise!

 

[kaz]

If more folks were like me, we wouldnt of ever been stuck there in the first place!

How so? You're a neocon. Thanks for getting us stuck in the quagmire over there, Repub. This is your fault.

 

[Kevinthedog]

If more folks were like me, we wouldnt of ever been stuck there in the first place!

How so? You're a neocon. Thanks for getting us stuck in the quagmire over there, Repub. This is your fault.

Oh! Must be opposite day!
Must give you a headache trying to judge and label everyone around you. what if they dont fit your little stereotypes? does your brain explode???

 

[JRK]

The premise for going to war, let alone the war itself, was a failure. We aren't any safer today than we were before the invasion, and even if the only guideline you're using for victory is the fact that we've propped up a representative government still in it's infancy, it's still a failure. Nation-building isn't a justified pretext for war, and if it was we would have been too preoccupied in any other number of countries that could use it, but are in reality generally ignored by the US. It's easy to sit here in hindsight and cherry pick what little good it has produced as the ends to try to justify the means...but for every good development that has occurred since April of 2003 there are 5 or more bad ones.

We messed up on that one, and if we were a smart nation we'd learn from it and move on instead of constantly searching for validation when none is due.

all is opinion
the pretext was WMDS and yellow xake
both were there
Defense.gov News Article: Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says
Media Slow To Show WikiLeaks Justified Iraq War - HUMAN EVENTS
and as far as nation building, removing Saddam is not nation building?
if you say so

 

[JRK]

If more folks were like me, we wouldnt of ever been stuck there in the first place!

How so? You're a neocon. Thanks for getting us stuck in the quagmire over there, Repub. This is your fault.

the war is over
weapons are gone
yellow cake is gone
nation is growing with 62% of the people voting in there last election

Not exactly a quagmire

 

[kaz]

If more folks were like me, we wouldnt of ever been stuck there in the first place!

How so? You're a neocon. Thanks for getting us stuck in the quagmire over there, Repub. This is your fault.

Oh! Must be opposite day!
Must give you a headache trying to judge and label everyone around you. what if they dont fit your little stereotypes? does your brain explode???

It's opposite day? What are you 8?

Hmmm, let's see. No it's not. you're still dumb as a brick.

But seriously, you got us into this war, neocon, how can you justify that? You want to invade Iran next, don't you?

 

[Kevinthedog]

If more folks were like me, we wouldnt of ever been stuck there in the first place!

How so? You're a neocon. Thanks for getting us stuck in the quagmire over there, Repub. This is your fault.

the war is over
weapons are gone
yellow cake is gone
nation is growing with 62% of the people voting in there last election

Not exactly a quagmire

A Grand Old Success! YAY!!!!!!

 

[Kevinthedog]

How so? You're a neocon. Thanks for getting us stuck in the quagmire over there, Repub. This is your fault.

Oh! Must be opposite day!
Must give you a headache trying to judge and label everyone around you. what if they dont fit your little stereotypes? does your brain explode???

It's opposite day? What are you 8?

Hmmm, let's see. No it's not. you're still dumb as a brick.

But seriously, you got us into this war, neocon, how can you justify that? You want to invade Iran next, don't you?

Dude! I already invaded iran years ago!!! Didnt you read about it? I lost, unfortunately, as my calvary got lost behind enemy lines, and I didnt have my eyes and ears. oh...wait!!! was that the civil war and gettysburg? I am SO CONFUSED!!!!!

 

[kaz]

If more folks were like me, we wouldnt of ever been stuck there in the first place!

How so? You're a neocon. Thanks for getting us stuck in the quagmire over there, Repub. This is your fault.

the war is over
weapons are gone
yellow cake is gone
nation is growing with 62% of the people voting in there last election

Not exactly a quagmire

We solved a problem for an ungrateful world that kicks the chair from under us every chance they get and made ourselves the target of terror. Our troops are still propping up despotic regimes and are in territory that's not ours as targets. And our government is artificially holding down gas prices just increasing our dependency on it and need to get deeper in problems that aren't ours. Quagmire is exactly what it is.

But as for the post, I'm mocking Kevin because he's calling me a neocon, repub and I'm responsible for the war. He really is dumb even for a liberal.

 

[Kevinthedog]

How so? You're a neocon. Thanks for getting us stuck in the quagmire over there, Repub. This is your fault.

the war is over
weapons are gone
yellow cake is gone
nation is growing with 62% of the people voting in there last election

Not exactly a quagmire

We solved a problem for an ungrateful world that kicks the chair from under us every chance they get and made ourselves the target of terror. Our troops are still propping up despotic regimes and are in territory that's not ours as targets. And our government is artificially holding down gas prices just increasing our dependency on it and need to get deeper in problems that aren't ours. Quagmire is exactly what it is.

But as for the post, I'm mocking Kevin because he's calling me a neocon, repub and I'm responsible for the war. He really is dumb even for a liberal.

awww shucks...my ears are burning!

 

[JRK]

How so? You're a neocon. Thanks for getting us stuck in the quagmire over there, Repub. This is your fault.

the war is over
weapons are gone
yellow cake is gone
nation is growing with 62% of the people voting in there last election

Not exactly a quagmire

We solved a problem for an ungrateful world that kicks the chair from under us every chance they get and made ourselves the target of terror. Our troops are still propping up despotic regimes and are in territory that's not ours as targets. And our government is artificially holding down gas prices just increasing our dependency on it and need to get deeper in problems that aren't ours. Quagmire is exactly what it is.

But as for the post, I'm mocking Kevin because he's calling me a neocon, repub and I'm responsible for the war. He really is dumb even for a liberal.

our troops will be gone in 5 months, they may leave 10,000
holding down gas?
gas has little to do with Iraq and alot to do with refinaries being built in the same place where there refining oil at the same time
alot to do with the admin shutting down off shore drilling
allot to do with pipelines that need to be built, not being allowed to be built, wjich would open up millions of jobs extracting oil shale we are finding every where

How is the govt holding down gas prices?
with that little puddle that came from the reserve?
really?

do your DD please before you vote again

 

[bobcollum]

The premise for going to war, let alone the war itself, was a failure. We aren't any safer today than we were before the invasion, and even if the only guideline you're using for victory is the fact that we've propped up a representative government still in it's infancy, it's still a failure. Nation-building isn't a justified pretext for war, and if it was we would have been too preoccupied in any other number of countries that could use it, but are in reality generally ignored by the US. It's easy to sit here in hindsight and cherry pick what little good it has produced as the ends to try to justify the means...but for every good development that has occurred since April of 2003 there are 5 or more bad ones.

We messed up on that one, and if we were a smart nation we'd learn from it and move on instead of constantly searching for validation when none is due.

all is opinion
the pretext was WMDS and yellow xake
both were there
Defense.gov News Article: Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says
Media Slow To Show WikiLeaks Justified Iraq War - HUMAN EVENTS
and as far as nation building, removing Saddam is not nation building?
if you say so

I don't doubt that they found mustard and sarin gas, it's well known and undisputed that he used it against the northern Kurds. The second example given referring to the yellow cake was stockpiled (by UN inspectors) after an Israeli air strike of a reactor project in 1981, so he didn't get it from Niger, therefore negating any accusations of Iraq trying to progress with a nuclear program, or being any direct threat to US security. Furthermore and maybe more importantly, why is it that if there was this solid evidence of justification for the war, none of the Republicans stood up and screamed this while they were getting thrown out of Congress and eventually the White House...for sending us to a war that everyone thought was unjustified?

Nation building and propping up a pro-US government is exactly what the war was about, I don't know how you concluded that I thought anything else.

 

[JRK]

The premise for going to war, let alone the war itself, was a failure. We aren't any safer today than we were before the invasion, and even if the only guideline you're using for victory is the fact that we've propped up a representative government still in it's infancy, it's still a failure. Nation-building isn't a justified pretext for war, and if it was we would have been too preoccupied in any other number of countries that could use it, but are in reality generally ignored by the US. It's easy to sit here in hindsight and cherry pick what little good it has produced as the ends to try to justify the means...but for every good development that has occurred since April of 2003 there are 5 or more bad ones.

We messed up on that one, and if we were a smart nation we'd learn from it and move on instead of constantly searching for validation when none is due.

all is opinion
the pretext was WMDS and yellow xake
both were there
Defense.gov News Article: Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says
Media Slow To Show WikiLeaks Justified Iraq War - HUMAN EVENTS
and as far as nation building, removing Saddam is not nation building?
if you say so

I don't doubt that they found mustard and sarin gas, it's well known and undisputed that he used it against the northern Kurds. The second example given referring to the yellow cake was stockpiled (by UN inspectors) after an Israeli air strike of a reactor project in 1981, so he didn't get it from Niger, therefore negating any accusations of Iraq trying to progress with a nuclear program, or being any direct threat to US security. Furthermore and maybe more importantly, why is it that if there was this solid evidence of justification for the war, none of the Republicans stood up and screamed this while they were getting thrown out of Congress and eventually the White House...for sending us to a war that everyone thought was unjustified?

Nation building and propping up a pro-US government is exactly what the war was about, I don't know how you concluded that I thought anything else.

no-one here claimed the yellow cake was from any where
stockpiled by the UN?
It appears that when George W. Bush, the CIA, and Tony Blair said that Saddam Hussein had yellowcake uranium, which was a violation of the UN resolution after the Gulf War, and one of the reasons why the USA and UK invaded Iraq to start the war, they were speaking the truth. 550 metric tons of yellowcake uranium was found recently in Iraq, that Saddam had hidden for over five years from UN weapons inspectors, and sold to Canada recently. Reported by Brain Murphy of the Associated press at ABC News. Yahoo has a copy of the story at their news site as well.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=5314609


And as far as the gas? first what we found
The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.
Defense.gov News Article: Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says
wjats worse is what Saddam hus self stated he had we have never found
This quotr is from the Un and is the rvrnt that triggered the invasion

The document indicates that 13,000 chemical bombs were dropped by the Iraqi Air Force between 1983 and 1988, while Iraq has declared that 19,500 bombs were consumed during this period. Thus, there is a discrepancy of 6,500 bombs. The amount of chemical agent in these bombs would be in the order of about 1,000 tonnes. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must assume that these quantities are now unaccounted for.

now for anthrax and other nasty stuff
Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 litres of this biological warfare agent, which it states it unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991. Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction.
There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared, and that at least some of this was retained after the declared destruction date. It might still exist. Either it should be found and be destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision or else convincing evidence should be produced to show that it was, indeed, destroyed in 1991.
As I reported to the Council on 19 December last year, Iraq did not declare a significant quantity, some 650 kg, of bacterial growth media, which was acknowledged as imported in Iraq's submission to the Amorim panel in February 1999. As part of its 7 December 2002 declaration, Iraq resubmitted the Amorim panel document, but the table showing this particular import of media was not included. The absence of this table would appear to be deliberate as the pages of the resubmitted document were renumbered.
In the letter of 24 January to the President of the Council, Iraq's Foreign Minister stated that "all imported quantities of growth media were declared". This is not evidence. I note that the quantity of media involved would suffice to produce, for example, about 5,000 litres of concentrated anthrax.
UNMOVIC - [ Selected Security Council Briefings ]
there
Please in the future do your DD
you opinion is just that, your opinion, I respect that
the facts state other wise
this event has evolved, the press and the liberal did not evolve with it

 

[bobcollum]

all is opinion
the pretext was WMDS and yellow xake
both were there
Defense.gov News Article: Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says
Media Slow To Show WikiLeaks Justified Iraq War - HUMAN EVENTS
and as far as nation building, removing Saddam is not nation building?
if you say so

I don't doubt that they found mustard and sarin gas, it's well known and undisputed that he used it against the northern Kurds. The second example given referring to the yellow cake was stockpiled (by UN inspectors) after an Israeli air strike of a reactor project in 1981, so he didn't get it from Niger, therefore negating any accusations of Iraq trying to progress with a nuclear program, or being any direct threat to US security. Furthermore and maybe more importantly, why is it that if there was this solid evidence of justification for the war, none of the Republicans stood up and screamed this while they were getting thrown out of Congress and eventually the White House...for sending us to a war that everyone thought was unjustified?

Nation building and propping up a pro-US government is exactly what the war was about, I don't know how you concluded that I thought anything else.

no-one here claimed the yellow cake was from any where
stockpiled by the UN?
Barack Obama has ordered the return of US troops to Iraq after 550 metric tons of ‘sumptuous’ yellow cake was discovered in areas surrounding Saddam Hussein’s palace, proving
Yellow Cake 'Motherload' Discovered In Iraq | Mostly Legitimate News Network
And as far as the gas? first what we found
The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.
Defense.gov News Article: Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says
wjats worse is what Saddam hus self stated he had we have never found
This quotr is from the Un and is the rvrnt that triggered the invasion

The document indicates that 13,000 chemical bombs were dropped by the Iraqi Air Force between 1983 and 1988, while Iraq has declared that 19,500 bombs were consumed during this period. Thus, there is a discrepancy of 6,500 bombs. The amount of chemical agent in these bombs would be in the order of about 1,000 tonnes. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must assume that these quantities are now unaccounted for.

now for anthrax and other nasty stuff
Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 litres of this biological warfare agent, which it states it unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991. Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction.
There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared, and that at least some of this was retained after the declared destruction date. It might still exist. Either it should be found and be destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision or else convincing evidence should be produced to show that it was, indeed, destroyed in 1991.
As I reported to the Council on 19 December last year, Iraq did not declare a significant quantity, some 650 kg, of bacterial growth media, which was acknowledged as imported in Iraq's submission to the Amorim panel in February 1999. As part of its 7 December 2002 declaration, Iraq resubmitted the Amorim panel document, but the table showing this particular import of media was not included. The absence of this table would appear to be deliberate as the pages of the resubmitted document were renumbered.
In the letter of 24 January to the President of the Council, Iraq's Foreign Minister stated that "all imported quantities of growth media were declared". This is not evidence. I note that the quantity of media involved would suffice to produce, for example, about 5,000 litres of concentrated anthrax.
UNMOVIC - [ Selected Security Council Briefings ]
there
Please in the future do your DD
you opinion is just that, your opinion, I respect that
the facts state other wise
this event has evolved, the press and the liberal did not evolve with it

It wasn't a threat to our security. Opinion? Probably, but it can just as easily be said that assuming they were a threat because of the presence of weapons is just as much of an opinion. I haven't seen anything here that proves we were in danger and I haven't seen anything post-major operations that lead me to believe the terror threat in general has diminished.

 

[JRK]

I don't doubt that they found mustard and sarin gas, it's well known and undisputed that he used it against the northern Kurds. The second example given referring to the yellow cake was stockpiled (by UN inspectors) after an Israeli air strike of a reactor project in 1981, so he didn't get it from Niger, therefore negating any accusations of Iraq trying to progress with a nuclear program, or being any direct threat to US security. Furthermore and maybe more importantly, why is it that if there was this solid evidence of justification for the war, none of the Republicans stood up and screamed this while they were getting thrown out of Congress and eventually the White House...for sending us to a war that everyone thought was unjustified?

Nation building and propping up a pro-US government is exactly what the war was about, I don't know how you concluded that I thought anything else.

no-one here claimed the yellow cake was from any where
stockpiled by the UN?
Barack Obama has ordered the return of US troops to Iraq after 550 metric tons of ‘sumptuous’ yellow cake was discovered in areas surrounding Saddam Hussein’s palace, proving
Yellow Cake 'Motherload' Discovered In Iraq | Mostly Legitimate News Network
And as far as the gas? first what we found
The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said. Sarin attacks the neurological system and is potentially lethal.
Defense.gov News Article: Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says
wjats worse is what Saddam hus self stated he had we have never found
This quotr is from the Un and is the rvrnt that triggered the invasion

The document indicates that 13,000 chemical bombs were dropped by the Iraqi Air Force between 1983 and 1988, while Iraq has declared that 19,500 bombs were consumed during this period. Thus, there is a discrepancy of 6,500 bombs. The amount of chemical agent in these bombs would be in the order of about 1,000 tonnes. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must assume that these quantities are now unaccounted for.

now for anthrax and other nasty stuff
Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 litres of this biological warfare agent, which it states it unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991. Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction.
There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared, and that at least some of this was retained after the declared destruction date. It might still exist. Either it should be found and be destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision or else convincing evidence should be produced to show that it was, indeed, destroyed in 1991.
As I reported to the Council on 19 December last year, Iraq did not declare a significant quantity, some 650 kg, of bacterial growth media, which was acknowledged as imported in Iraq's submission to the Amorim panel in February 1999. As part of its 7 December 2002 declaration, Iraq resubmitted the Amorim panel document, but the table showing this particular import of media was not included. The absence of this table would appear to be deliberate as the pages of the resubmitted document were renumbered.
In the letter of 24 January to the President of the Council, Iraq's Foreign Minister stated that "all imported quantities of growth media were declared". This is not evidence. I note that the quantity of media involved would suffice to produce, for example, about 5,000 litres of concentrated anthrax.
UNMOVIC - [ Selected Security Council Briefings ]
there
Please in the future do your DD
you opinion is just that, your opinion, I respect that
the facts state other wise
this event has evolved, the press and the liberal did not evolve with it

It wasn't a threat to our security. Opinion? Probably, but it can just as easily be said that assuming they were a threat because of the presence of weapons is just as much of an opinion. I haven't seen anything here that proves we were in danger and I haven't seen anything post-major operations that lead me to believe the terror threat in general has diminished.

Do you think those we were killing in Iraq were Iraqis?
do you think this world is not safer without Saddam?
do you really feel that a country that had a 62% voter turn-out in there last election that had saddam Hussien running the show wit no elections 10 years ago is no better for the world?
maybe not
but those are the evenets as they have evolved
I wish 9-11 had never happened
I pray that saddam had done the right thing as well as the UN (WITHOUT THE KICKBACKS)

 

[bobcollum]

Do you think those we were killing in Iraq were Iraqis?

Many Iraqis were killed, yes.

do you think this world is not safer without Saddam?

I really don't think it makes much difference, honestly.

do you really feel that a country that had a 62% voter turn-out in there last election that had saddam Hussien running the show wit no elections 10 years ago is no better for the world?

It's better for Iraq, I suppose. The jury is still out on that one.

maybe not
but those are the evenets as they have evolved

Agreed, but it's what it took to get there that troubles me so much.

I wish 9-11 had never happened

Me too, but I fail to see what this has to do with the topic.

I pray that saddam had done the right thing as well as the UN (WITHOUT THE KICKBACKS)

We should have spent more time inspecting, but I also think there was little to no threat to our security, so I'd assume if you thought there was than delaying the invasion would be costly.

I'd also appreciate it if you would comment on my question, which I feel is pretty valid:

why is it that if there was this solid evidence of justification for the war, none of the Republicans stood up and screamed this while they were getting thrown out of Congress and eventually the White House...for sending us to a war that everyone thought was unjustified?

 

[JRK]

Do you think those we were killing in Iraq were Iraqis?

Many Iraqis were killed, yes.

do you think this world is not safer without Saddam?

I really don't think it makes much difference, honestly.



It's better for Iraq, I suppose. The jury is still out on that one.



Agreed, but it's what it took to get there that troubles me so much.

I wish 9-11 had never happened

Me too, but I fail to see what this has to do with the topic.

I pray that saddam had done the right thing as well as the UN (WITHOUT THE KICKBACKS)

We should have spent more time inspecting, but I also think there was little to no threat to our security, so I'd assume if you thought there was than delaying the invasion would be costly.

There was so much then we did not know. As is the fact there is allot of bad stuff still missing
you should read this link
UNMOVIC - [ Selected Security Council Briefings ]
allot of tose we fought after we invaded were not iraqis
The UN was getting kick backs on the oil for food,
it was a mess and after 9-11 the world changed, Saddam did not change with it

Was Saddam a threat?
not really, but the stuff he had stock piled, the location of the country as well as the oil reserves it was in our best interest after 9-11 to remove Saddam, stabalize the country, we waited 18 months for this situation to become fluid after 9-11

Saddam had his chance

 

[bobcollum]

Was Saddam a threat?
not really, but the stuff he had stock piled, the location of the country as well as the oil reserves it was in our best interest after 9-11 to remove Saddam, stabalize the country, we waited 18 months for this situation to become fluid after 9-11
Saddam had his chance

This is the big problem, the Governments interests aren't the interests of many US citizens. We have too much interest vested in that area, it dictates what we do and has been a big source of the tensions between the people of the Middle East and the West. All of this meddling is causing more trouble than it's worth because nation building doesn't work.

 

[JRK]

Was Saddam a threat?
not really, but the stuff he had stock piled, the location of the country as well as the oil reserves it was in our best interest after 9-11 to remove Saddam, stabalize the country, we waited 18 months for this situation to become fluid after 9-11
Saddam had his chance

This is the big problem, the Governments interests aren't the interests of many US citizens. We have too much interest vested in that area, it dictates what we do and has been a big source of the tensions between the people of the Middle East and the West. All of this meddling is causing more trouble than it's worth because nation building doesn't work.

62% Of the Iraqi people voted in the last election. It was a democracy until 1959 (I think the year is correct)
the tension?
the first WTC bombing was done by a Iraqi citizen
As I have stated, Saddam had a chance to do the right thing many years

Any way I respect your opinion, there comes a time when people need to agree to dis agree

 

[bobcollum]

Any way I respect your opinion, there comes a time when people need to agree to dis agree

Agreed. You're the first person here that I've disagreed with that hasn't been an offensive name-calling crybaby, so kudos to you for that.