CDZ Why the End of Modernism Will be Catastrophic for Humanity

JimBowie1958

Old Fogey
Sep 25, 2011
63,590
16,753
2,220
In our day everything Modern has been slandered, misrepresented and demonized when this has been the most humane era of any time in Mankinds history. I do not use the word 'modern' in the sense of the 'current time period' but as a world view typified by the people who adapted to modern industry from about 1500.

The Modern world view was ironically enough established by clerics like St Thomas Moore who led the crusade to clean up the corruption in Catholic monasteries of his time. Moore wrote a book on Utopia that inspired generations since and promoted the value of a strong central government to save mankind in the name of God and humanity. Objective Truth was a given to the philosophers of that time, and the use of 'Natural philosophy' to explore what we know of how nature works was promoted across Europe, not only to ease the lives of the people but also to enhance profits of private businesses and strengthen the power of patronizing governments. This world view was adopted by Western elites in order to survive the devastation of the Saracen, Vikings and Magyar invaders and the sweeping plagues of the Second, Third and Sixth centuries, and the Bubonic Plague of the 14th.

This world view enabled the three key events that completely turned the Old World upside down; the ubiquitous rifle, the ubiquitous printed media of various kinds, and the discovery of Celestial Navigation which allowed repeatable passage to the American continents. The rifle making technology became common tech that any blacksmith could replicate by 1750 which truly put real power into the hands of the people, potentially when they finally realized that they had such power in the English Civil War. The printing technology led to an explosion in discussion and controversy that fanned the flames of literacy across the Globe, changing us forever with the spread of science and modern medicine. Columbus used celestial navigation in his first two voyages along with dead reckoning and more traditional methods, relying on ocean currents to make his way, but by his third voyage his use of celestial navigation was so certain and reliable he abandoned using dead reckoning or any other method of navigation. This development of celestial navigation freed ocean commerce from hugging the coasts and allowed much faster voyages to any part of the globe and international trade exploded everywhere. It allowed Western Europeans to go around the Muslim controlled Middle East, flipping the economic advantage from the Muslim world to the Christian world till the development of the internal combustion engine and the need for petroleum products.

Since the 1500's, we have defied every expressed limit to human endeavor, knowledge and capacity. We feed hundreds of times more than Malthus whined the globe could handle, with no food riots or mass starvation anywhere that commerce is allowed to function unimpeded by local government. We have cured diseases that were once the deeply held fears of humanity everywhere, and no longer do people evacuate to the countryside when disease breaks out in our cities because we have confidence that our medical establishment can handle the problem. We fly through the air, land on the moon, instantly communicate to people on the other side of the Earth, and are now on the brink of Eternal youth.

But all this is now being put at risk by one simple thing; abandoning the world view that got us here and that is the Modern World View.

What is this 'modern' world view? Well originally it simply meant the thinking of our current time in each generation which was assumed to be anti-Catholic, pro-Nordic, and entirely Secular deterministic. But as it won the day in several controversies like the discovery of biological Evolution and modern physics, the Modern World View became embraced by nearly everyone across the Globe by 1900 as its advantages and power had become obvious to everyone. The Western World was seen as the epitome of Science, Progress, Art, literature and style. Western dress was required in most countries as a symbolic statement that they were trying to become Western which implied Modern.

Then came the First World war, a single act of complete insanity that slaughtered tens of millions of people, wrecked entire empires that had endured for centuries and it completely discredited Western culture. And if that wasnt bad enough, we followed the first calamity with a second act in the Second World War. No longer were Europeans seen as the great exemplars of Modern thinking and since 1900 we have slid down the slippery slope of an irrational Post-Modern thought that has inverted the basic tenets of the Modern World View that allowed us to achieve the wonders we have achieved. The rise of Communism (Marxist-Leninism), fascism/Nazism, and Identity Politics has cause the deaths of millions of people has over-riding rationales for the dehumanization of other people became universally justified through the appeal of tribalism, whether based on economics, genetics or culture.

Why would the benefactors of the Modern World View abandon that same world view?


Mostly I think because other world views are more entertaining, being not so boring like the MWV we have forced on us from grade school. An entire industry of Post-Modernists have found easy tenure and wealth selling to the public how 'evil we actually are' because of our blunders and they make up lies to fill in the rest, like asserting that Europeans deliberately spread malaria. And so the ignorant innocent are abandoning their greatest inheritance; the Modern Age.

And what are the consequences of our abandoning the MWV?

Well, firstly we will see more and more people ignoring the advice and prudence of Modern disciplinary ways of living, which were frugal, moral and emphasized planning for the future. No, that was too 'judgmental' and today everything must be immediate consumption, hedonistic, and living only for the moment.

Secondly, our view and understanding of technology has devolved into a mystical Black Box of unrelated functions that rob us of understanding how things really work in the world. We have people who drive their automobiles and yet have not the slightest comprehension of how an internal combustion engine works. We have millions of people flying around the globe who dont have the slightest notion of the Bernoulli Principle. We have idiots who protest eating meat but who have no problem with wearing leather, getting vaccinations or using plastic all of which come from dead animals (as well as plants). We are increasingly unable to see the connection between what we do and what we advocate, and so many of us ignorantly wind up advocating for things that are against our own interests, like the ignorant Red Stick Creek Amerindians who advocated in the own tribe for practices and policies that led to their forced removal, similar to 'war path Cherokee' who were forced to migrate to Oklahoma and the tragic 'Trail of Tears' as they erupted into a catastrophic Civil War that saw the deaths of many of their tribesmen and Cherokee as well.

We will lose the ability to comprehend the intent and real meaning of what other people say as our own subjective opinions trump any consideration what the opponent might have actually meant. Our sense of community and humanity will perish under the poison of intentional slander of the Other Kind.We will lose our trust in science as it becomes subverted into a new form of Lysenkoism in the service of political ideology. We will close our borders entirely due to the inability to have faith and trust in those 'not of our kind' as our incomprehension forces us to rely on trivialities like common appearance. Our governments ability to manage our nations policies and affairs, already well undermined, will completely collapse as the economic wherewithal falls far short of our exploding humane needs.

Of course none of this is a certainty. I am just connecting points on a hypothetical blank sheet, but if we do not restore the best of our Modern World View, the population of Planet Earth will fall to under a billion people by 2200, IMO, and most of that will be uncontrolled catastrophe and also applauded by nitwits who think it a good thing to happen.
 
Last edited:
go running around 3/4s naked carrying a US flag & see how that helps ya get past the problems you perceive

and good luck wit dat

You sound like those that only gave a crap once the problems stopped & dropped on your door step

mighty brave of you; not
 
Cado Kid, what do you find so funny? The death of the modern World View, the destruction of Western culture, or the genocide of 80% of the human race?
 
You sound like those that only gave a crap once the problems stopped & dropped on your door step
Ummm, I am talking about coming problems here in this thread, the very thing you are accusing me of NOT doing.

Ironic to say the least.
 
In our day everything Modern has been slandered, misrepresented and demonized when this has been the most humane era of any time in Mankinds history. I do not use the word 'modern' in the sense of the 'current time period' but as a world view typified by the people who adapted to modern industry from about 1500.

The Modern world view was ironically enough established by clerics like St Thomas Moore who led the crusade to clean up the corruption in Catholic monasteries of his time. Moore wrote a book on Utopia that inspired generations since and promoted the value of a strong central government to save mankind in the name of God and humanity. Objective Truth was a given to the philosophers of that time, and the use of 'Natural philosophy' to explore what we know of how nature works was promoted across Europe, not only to ease the lives of the people but also to enhance profits of private businesses and strengthen the power of patronizing governments. This world view was adopted by Western elites in order to survive the devastation of the Saracen, Vikings and Magyar invaders and the sweeping plagues of the Second, Third and Sixth centuries, and the Bubonic Plague of the 14th.

This world view enabled the three key events that completely turned the Old World upside down; the ubiquitous rifle, the ubiquitous printed media of various kinds, and the discovery of Celestial Navigation which allowed repeatable passage to the American continents. The rifle making technology became common tech that any blacksmith could replicate by 1750 which truly put real power into the hands of the people, potentially when they finally realized that they had such power in the English Civil War. The printing technology led to an explosion in discussion and controversy that fanned the flames of literacy across the Globe, changing us forever with the spread of science and modern medicine. Columbus used celestial navigation in his first two voyages along with dead reckoning and more traditional methods, relying on ocean currents to make his way, but by his third voyage his use of celestial navigation was so certain and reliable he abandoned using dead reckoning or any other method of navigation. This development of celestial navigation freed ocean commerce from hugging the coasts and allowed much faster voyages to any part of the globe and international trade exploded everywhere. It allowed Western Europeans to go around the Muslim controlled Middle East, flipping the economic advantage from the Muslim world to the Christian world till the development of the internal combustion engine and the need for petroleum products.

Since the 1500's, we have defied every expressed limit to human endeavor, knowledge and capacity. We feed hundreds of times more than Malthus whined the globe could handle, with no food riots or mass starvation anywhere that commerce is allowed to function unimpeded by local government. We have cured diseases that were once the deeply held fears of humanity everywhere, and no longer do people evacuate to the countryside when disease breaks out in our cities because we have confidence that our medical establishment can handle the problem. We fly through the air, land on the moon, instantly communicate to people on the other side of the Earth, and are now on the brink of Eternal youth.

But all this is now being put at risk by one simple thing; abandoning the world view that got us here and that is the Modern World View.

What is this 'modern' world view? Well originally it simply meant the thinking of our current time in each generation which was assumed to be anti-Catholic, pro-Nordic, and entirely Secular deterministic. But as it won the day in several controversies like the discovery of biological Evolution and modern physics, the Modern World View became embraced by nearly everyone across the Globe by 1900 as its advantages and power had become obvious to everyone. The Western World was seen as the epitome of Science, Progress, Art, literature and style. Western dress was required in most countries as a symbolic statement that they were trying to become Western which implied Modern.

Then came the First World war, a single act of complete insanity that slaughtered tens of millions of people, wrecked entire empires that had endured for centuries and it completely discredited Western culture. And if that wasnt bad enough, we followed the first calamity with a second act in the Second World War. No longer were Europeans seen as the great exemplars of Modern thinking and since 1900 we have slid down the slippery slope of an irrational Post-Modern thought that has inverted the basic tenets of the Modern World View that allowed us to achieve the wonders we have achieved. The rise of Communism (Marxist-Leninism), fascism/Nazism, and Identity Politics has cause the deaths of millions of people has over-riding rationales for the dehumanization of other people became universally justified through the appeal of tribalism, whether based on economics, genetics or culture.

Why would the benefactors of the Modern World View abandon that same world view?


Mostly I think because other world views are more entertaining, being not so boring like the MWV we have forced on us from grade school. An entire industry of Post-Modernists have found easy tenure and wealth selling to the public how 'evil we actually are' because of our blunders and they make up lies to fill in the rest, like asserting that Europeans deliberately spread malaria. And so the ignorant innocent are abandoning their greatest inheritance; the Modern Age.

And what are the consequences of our abandoning the MWV?

Well, firstly we will see more and more people ignoring the advice and prudence of Modern disciplinary ways of living, which were frugal, moral and emphasized planning for the future. No, that was too 'judgmental' and today everything must be immediate consumption, hedonistic, and living only for the moment.

Secondly, our view and understanding of technology has devolved into a mystical Black Box of unrelated functions that rob us of understanding how things really work in the world. We have people who drive their automobiles and yet have not the slightest comprehension of how an internal combustion engine works. We have millions of people flying around the globe who dont have the slightest notion of the Bernoulli Principle. We have idiots who protest eating meat but who have no problem with wearing leather, getting vaccinations or using plastic all of which come from dead animals (as well as plants). We are increasingly unable to see the connection between what we do and what we advocate, and so many of us ignorantly wind up advocating for things that are against our own interests, like the ignorant Red Stick Creek Amerindians who advocated in the own tribe for practices and policies that led to their forced removal, similar to 'war path Cherokee' who were forced to migrate to Oklahoma and the tragic 'Trail of Tears' as they erupted into a catastrophic Civil War that saw the deaths of many of their tribesmen and Cherokee as well.

We will lose the ability to comprehend the intent and real meaning of what other people say as our own subjective opinions trump any consideration what the opponent might have actually meant. Our sense of community and humanity will perish under the poison of intentional slander of the Other Kind.We will lose our trust in science as it becomes subverted into a new form of Lysenkoism in the service of political ideology. We will close our borders entirely due to the inability to have faith and trust in those 'not of our kind' as our incomprehension forces us to rely on trivialities like common appearance. Our governments ability to manage our nations policies and affairs, already well undermined, will completely collapse as the economic wherewithal falls far short of our exploding humane needs.

Of course none of this is a certainty. I am just connecting points on a hypothetical blank sheet, but if we do not restore the best of our Modern World View, the population of Planet Earth will fall to under a billion people by 2200, IMO, and most of that will be uncontrolled catastrophe and also applauded by nitwits who think it a good thing to happen.
Things always change and evolve and people predict the end times. Now we actually have the power to destroy the world with nukes. Overpopulation will require new technologies to keep people fed and heathy. Automation will require new societal orders as humans become unnecessary for production. You want humans to survive the coming wars, then invest heavily in getting us off the planet over the next one or two hundred years.
 
In our day everything Modern has been slandered, misrepresented and demonized when this has been the most humane era of any time in Mankinds history. I do not use the word 'modern' in the sense of the 'current time period' but as a world view typified by the people who adapted to modern industry from about 1500.

The Modern world view was ironically enough established by clerics like St Thomas Moore who led the crusade to clean up the corruption in Catholic monasteries of his time. Moore wrote a book on Utopia that inspired generations since and promoted the value of a strong central government to save mankind in the name of God and humanity. Objective Truth was a given to the philosophers of that time, and the use of 'Natural philosophy' to explore what we know of how nature works was promoted across Europe, not only to ease the lives of the people but also to enhance profits of private businesses and strengthen the power of patronizing governments. This world view was adopted by Western elites in order to survive the devastation of the Saracen, Vikings and Magyar invaders and the sweeping plagues of the Second, Third and Sixth centuries, and the Bubonic Plague of the 14th.

This world view enabled the three key events that completely turned the Old World upside down; the ubiquitous rifle, the ubiquitous printed media of various kinds, and the discovery of Celestial Navigation which allowed repeatable passage to the American continents. The rifle making technology became common tech that any blacksmith could replicate by 1750 which truly put real power into the hands of the people, potentially when they finally realized that they had such power in the English Civil War. The printing technology led to an explosion in discussion and controversy that fanned the flames of literacy across the Globe, changing us forever with the spread of science and modern medicine. Columbus used celestial navigation in his first two voyages along with dead reckoning and more traditional methods, relying on ocean currents to make his way, but by his third voyage his use of celestial navigation was so certain and reliable he abandoned using dead reckoning or any other method of navigation. This development of celestial navigation freed ocean commerce from hugging the coasts and allowed much faster voyages to any part of the globe and international trade exploded everywhere. It allowed Western Europeans to go around the Muslim controlled Middle East, flipping the economic advantage from the Muslim world to the Christian world till the development of the internal combustion engine and the need for petroleum products.

Since the 1500's, we have defied every expressed limit to human endeavor, knowledge and capacity. We feed hundreds of times more than Malthus whined the globe could handle, with no food riots or mass starvation anywhere that commerce is allowed to function unimpeded by local government. We have cured diseases that were once the deeply held fears of humanity everywhere, and no longer do people evacuate to the countryside when disease breaks out in our cities because we have confidence that our medical establishment can handle the problem. We fly through the air, land on the moon, instantly communicate to people on the other side of the Earth, and are now on the brink of Eternal youth.

But all this is now being put at risk by one simple thing; abandoning the world view that got us here and that is the Modern World View.

What is this 'modern' world view? Well originally it simply meant the thinking of our current time in each generation which was assumed to be anti-Catholic, pro-Nordic, and entirely Secular deterministic. But as it won the day in several controversies like the discovery of biological Evolution and modern physics, the Modern World View became embraced by nearly everyone across the Globe by 1900 as its advantages and power had become obvious to everyone. The Western World was seen as the epitome of Science, Progress, Art, literature and style. Western dress was required in most countries as a symbolic statement that they were trying to become Western which implied Modern.

Then came the First World war, a single act of complete insanity that slaughtered tens of millions of people, wrecked entire empires that had endured for centuries and it completely discredited Western culture. And if that wasnt bad enough, we followed the first calamity with a second act in the Second World War. No longer were Europeans seen as the great exemplars of Modern thinking and since 1900 we have slid down the slippery slope of an irrational Post-Modern thought that has inverted the basic tenets of the Modern World View that allowed us to achieve the wonders we have achieved. The rise of Communism (Marxist-Leninism), fascism/Nazism, and Identity Politics has cause the deaths of millions of people has over-riding rationales for the dehumanization of other people became universally justified through the appeal of tribalism, whether based on economics, genetics or culture.

Why would the benefactors of the Modern World View abandon that same world view?


Mostly I think because other world views are more entertaining, being not so boring like the MWV we have forced on us from grade school. An entire industry of Post-Modernists have found easy tenure and wealth selling to the public how 'evil we actually are' because of our blunders and they make up lies to fill in the rest, like asserting that Europeans deliberately spread malaria. And so the ignorant innocent are abandoning their greatest inheritance; the Modern Age.

And what are the consequences of our abandoning the MWV?

Well, firstly we will see more and more people ignoring the advice and prudence of Modern disciplinary ways of living, which were frugal, moral and emphasized planning for the future. No, that was too 'judgmental' and today everything must be immediate consumption, hedonistic, and living only for the moment.

Secondly, our view and understanding of technology has devolved into a mystical Black Box of unrelated functions that rob us of understanding how things really work in the world. We have people who drive their automobiles and yet have not the slightest comprehension of how an internal combustion engine works. We have millions of people flying around the globe who dont have the slightest notion of the Bernoulli Principle. We have idiots who protest eating meat but who have no problem with wearing leather, getting vaccinations or using plastic all of which come from dead animals (as well as plants). We are increasingly unable to see the connection between what we do and what we advocate, and so many of us ignorantly wind up advocating for things that are against our own interests, like the ignorant Red Stick Creek Amerindians who advocated in the own tribe for practices and policies that led to their forced removal, similar to 'war path Cherokee' who were forced to migrate to Oklahoma and the tragic 'Trail of Tears' as they erupted into a catastrophic Civil War that saw the deaths of many of their tribesmen and Cherokee as well.

We will lose the ability to comprehend the intent and real meaning of what other people say as our own subjective opinions trump any consideration what the opponent might have actually meant. Our sense of community and humanity will perish under the poison of intentional slander of the Other Kind.We will lose our trust in science as it becomes subverted into a new form of Lysenkoism in the service of political ideology. We will close our borders entirely due to the inability to have faith and trust in those 'not of our kind' as our incomprehension forces us to rely on trivialities like common appearance. Our governments ability to manage our nations policies and affairs, already well undermined, will completely collapse as the economic wherewithal falls far short of our exploding humane needs.

Of course none of this is a certainty. I am just connecting points on a hypothetical blank sheet, but if we do not restore the best of our Modern World View, the population of Planet Earth will fall to under a billion people by 2200, IMO, and most of that will be uncontrolled catastrophe and also applauded by nitwits who think it a good thing to happen.
That was likely the best essay I have read yet that describes, briefly, where we have come from, where we are, and where we are likely going as humans. Well done. I particularly liked the part about how so many of us have not the slightest inkling of how our modern technology works. I have said for maybe 20 years that a person should know at least the basics of how something works before they use it. It's just good sense to have a basic understanding of how a toaster works so you know not to put a knife in it. Sadly, this basic understanding of how our current world works is being forgotten. Largely because of the thinking that, "I don't need to know HOW it works, just THAT it works." Well, that is fine when you are talking about a toaster, not such a good idea when you start fiddling around with more complex things. Sure, you can always find someone who knows how to fix your car, but if you don't know there is no such thing as "blinker fluid" you WILL be taken advantage of, eventually.

On the larger topics of regional/national interest, a largely uninformed/ignorant voting population can easily be manipulated into voting for/advocating that which is against their own self interest. But, that is the point, isn't it?
 
JimBowie98, I particularly appreciate the connection between what you say and the abhorrent behaviour of many who post ad hominem vitriol on forums but wonder what exactly you're getting at when you say "We are increasingly unable to see the connection between what we do and what we advocate"
Asserting everyones' ideology/religion, other than our own, is the cause of the mess we are descending into conveniently obviates the need to look at ourselves. Like Arthur Koestler in his "The Ghost in The Machine" I submit the central problem we face (which the larger percentage of our species wants to ignore) is the very nature of Homo Sapiens. Until and unless we address what we are, before we even start to argue about what we believe, our self generated extinction is certain.
 
JimBowie98, I particularly appreciate the connection between what you say and the abhorrent behaviour of many who post ad hominem vitriol on forums but wonder what exactly you're getting at when you say "We are increasingly unable to see the connection between what we do and what we advocate"
Asserting everyones' ideology/religion, other than our own, is the cause of the mess we are descending into conveniently obviates the need to look at ourselves. Like Arthur Koestler in his "The Ghost in The Machine" I submit the central problem we face (which the larger percentage of our species wants to ignore) is the very nature of Homo Sapiens. Until and unless we address what we are, before we even start to argue about what we believe, our self generated extinction is certain.

If we are not guided by Judeo-Christian principles in this century, I think it will be our last as a Modern Civilization.
 
JimBowie98, I particularly appreciate the connection between what you say and the abhorrent behaviour of many who post ad hominem vitriol on forums but wonder what exactly you're getting at when you say "We are increasingly unable to see the connection between what we do and what we advocate"
Asserting everyones' ideology/religion, other than our own, is the cause of the mess we are descending into conveniently obviates the need to look at ourselves. Like Arthur Koestler in his "The Ghost in The Machine" I submit the central problem we face (which the larger percentage of our species wants to ignore) is the very nature of Homo Sapiens. Until and unless we address what we are, before we even start to argue about what we believe, our self generated extinction is certain.

If we are not guided by Judeo-Christian principles in this century, I think it will be our last as a Modern Civilization.
I don't see any reason to believe this current trajectory is going to change, Jim. While I'm not religious, it's not difficult to recognize that it can create and manage social rules that can be cohesive on a larger scale. They can clearly provide general moral boundaries that are clearly in decay right now.

So you may want to revise this to, "If we are not guided by Judeo-Christian principles in this century, or if they are not replaced with another socially binding ideology, I think it will be our last as a Modern Civilization", something like that.

Just a thought.
.
 
I don't see any reason to believe this current trajectory is going to change, Jim. While I'm not religious, it's not difficult to recognize that it can create and manage social rules that can be cohesive on a larger scale. They can clearly provide general moral boundaries that are clearly in decay right now.

So you may want to revise this to, "If we are not guided by Judeo-Christian principles in this century, or if they are not replaced with another socially binding ideology, I think it will be our last as a Modern Civilization", something like that.

Just a thought.
.
I dont think that ideology can replace Judeo-Christianity in the role of making certain axioms universal.

Whether you agree or disagree with the axioms of Marxism, Libertarianism, etc, that is just disagreement of ones opinions, but with Judeo-Christian values you have the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount which are not mere opinion and carry much more weight with the believer.

As far as various religions go, the pacifism found in JC is also very helpful for the long term prospects of humanity, though often ignored by its followers.
 
I don't see any reason to believe this current trajectory is going to change, Jim. While I'm not religious, it's not difficult to recognize that it can create and manage social rules that can be cohesive on a larger scale. They can clearly provide general moral boundaries that are clearly in decay right now.

So you may want to revise this to, "If we are not guided by Judeo-Christian principles in this century, or if they are not replaced with another socially binding ideology, I think it will be our last as a Modern Civilization", something like that.

Just a thought.
.
I dont think that ideology can replace Judeo-Christianity in the role of making certain axioms universal.

Whether you agree or disagree with the axioms of Marxism, Libertarianism, etc, that is just disagreement of ones opinions, but with Judeo-Christian values you have the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount which are not mere opinion and carry much more weight with the believer.

As far as various religions go, the pacifism found in JC is also very helpful for the long term prospects of humanity, though often ignored by its followers.
No doubt such an alternative would have to be powerful as hell. No pun intended! I just wonder if there's some kind of ideology or approach out there that could still unite us in some way on a large scale. I'm not even convinced, at this point, that some kind of cataclysmic event would be enough. In other words, then, something in between religion, which we appear to be rejecting more and more, and pure tribalism, which is where we're headed.
.
 
No doubt such an alternative would have to be powerful as hell. No pun intended! I just wonder if there's some kind of ideology or approach out there that could still unite us in some way on a large scale. I'm not even convinced, at this point, that some kind of cataclysmic event would be enough. In other words, then, something in between religion, which we appear to be rejecting more and more, and pure tribalism, which is where we're headed.
.
An updated secular Deism?
 
No doubt such an alternative would have to be powerful as hell. No pun intended! I just wonder if there's some kind of ideology or approach out there that could still unite us in some way on a large scale. I'm not even convinced, at this point, that some kind of cataclysmic event would be enough. In other words, then, something in between religion, which we appear to be rejecting more and more, and pure tribalism, which is where we're headed.
An updated secular Deism?
Interesting thought, but no, I'm thinking (and remember I'm just making this up as I go here) more along the lines of an additional, parallel ideology that has no deistic elements. Deism/religion would just remain on its own track.

I dunno. I definitely think that we still have a long way to evolve in many ways, and that there might be some kind of connective device down the road. Maybe at a higher intellectual level, or a different direction, more organic/humanistic. If we don't destroy ourselves first.
.
 
Last edited:
In our day everything Modern has been slandered, misrepresented and demonized when this has been the most humane era of any time in Mankinds history. I do not use the word 'modern' in the sense of the 'current time period' but as a world view typified by the people who adapted to modern industry from about 1500.

The Modern world view was ironically enough established by clerics like St Thomas Moore who led the crusade to clean up the corruption in Catholic monasteries of his time. Moore wrote a book on Utopia that inspired generations since and promoted the value of a strong central government to save mankind in the name of God and humanity. Objective Truth was a given to the philosophers of that time, and the use of 'Natural philosophy' to explore what we know of how nature works was promoted across Europe, not only to ease the lives of the people but also to enhance profits of private businesses and strengthen the power of patronizing governments. This world view was adopted by Western elites in order to survive the devastation of the Saracen, Vikings and Magyar invaders and the sweeping plagues of the Second, Third and Sixth centuries, and the Bubonic Plague of the 14th.

This world view enabled the three key events that completely turned the Old World upside down; the ubiquitous rifle, the ubiquitous printed media of various kinds, and the discovery of Celestial Navigation which allowed repeatable passage to the American continents. The rifle making technology became common tech that any blacksmith could replicate by 1750 which truly put real power into the hands of the people, potentially when they finally realized that they had such power in the English Civil War. The printing technology led to an explosion in discussion and controversy that fanned the flames of literacy across the Globe, changing us forever with the spread of science and modern medicine. Columbus used celestial navigation in his first two voyages along with dead reckoning and more traditional methods, relying on ocean currents to make his way, but by his third voyage his use of celestial navigation was so certain and reliable he abandoned using dead reckoning or any other method of navigation. This development of celestial navigation freed ocean commerce from hugging the coasts and allowed much faster voyages to any part of the globe and international trade exploded everywhere. It allowed Western Europeans to go around the Muslim controlled Middle East, flipping the economic advantage from the Muslim world to the Christian world till the development of the internal combustion engine and the need for petroleum products.

Since the 1500's, we have defied every expressed limit to human endeavor, knowledge and capacity. We feed hundreds of times more than Malthus whined the globe could handle, with no food riots or mass starvation anywhere that commerce is allowed to function unimpeded by local government. We have cured diseases that were once the deeply held fears of humanity everywhere, and no longer do people evacuate to the countryside when disease breaks out in our cities because we have confidence that our medical establishment can handle the problem. We fly through the air, land on the moon, instantly communicate to people on the other side of the Earth, and are now on the brink of Eternal youth.

But all this is now being put at risk by one simple thing; abandoning the world view that got us here and that is the Modern World View.

What is this 'modern' world view? Well originally it simply meant the thinking of our current time in each generation which was assumed to be anti-Catholic, pro-Nordic, and entirely Secular deterministic. But as it won the day in several controversies like the discovery of biological Evolution and modern physics, the Modern World View became embraced by nearly everyone across the Globe by 1900 as its advantages and power had become obvious to everyone. The Western World was seen as the epitome of Science, Progress, Art, literature and style. Western dress was required in most countries as a symbolic statement that they were trying to become Western which implied Modern.

Then came the First World war, a single act of complete insanity that slaughtered tens of millions of people, wrecked entire empires that had endured for centuries and it completely discredited Western culture. And if that wasnt bad enough, we followed the first calamity with a second act in the Second World War. No longer were Europeans seen as the great exemplars of Modern thinking and since 1900 we have slid down the slippery slope of an irrational Post-Modern thought that has inverted the basic tenets of the Modern World View that allowed us to achieve the wonders we have achieved. The rise of Communism (Marxist-Leninism), fascism/Nazism, and Identity Politics has cause the deaths of millions of people has over-riding rationales for the dehumanization of other people became universally justified through the appeal of tribalism, whether based on economics, genetics or culture.

Why would the benefactors of the Modern World View abandon that same world view?


Mostly I think because other world views are more entertaining, being not so boring like the MWV we have forced on us from grade school. An entire industry of Post-Modernists have found easy tenure and wealth selling to the public how 'evil we actually are' because of our blunders and they make up lies to fill in the rest, like asserting that Europeans deliberately spread malaria. And so the ignorant innocent are abandoning their greatest inheritance; the Modern Age.

And what are the consequences of our abandoning the MWV?

Well, firstly we will see more and more people ignoring the advice and prudence of Modern disciplinary ways of living, which were frugal, moral and emphasized planning for the future. No, that was too 'judgmental' and today everything must be immediate consumption, hedonistic, and living only for the moment.

Secondly, our view and understanding of technology has devolved into a mystical Black Box of unrelated functions that rob us of understanding how things really work in the world. We have people who drive their automobiles and yet have not the slightest comprehension of how an internal combustion engine works. We have millions of people flying around the globe who dont have the slightest notion of the Bernoulli Principle. We have idiots who protest eating meat but who have no problem with wearing leather, getting vaccinations or using plastic all of which come from dead animals (as well as plants). We are increasingly unable to see the connection between what we do and what we advocate, and so many of us ignorantly wind up advocating for things that are against our own interests, like the ignorant Red Stick Creek Amerindians who advocated in the own tribe for practices and policies that led to their forced removal, similar to 'war path Cherokee' who were forced to migrate to Oklahoma and the tragic 'Trail of Tears' as they erupted into a catastrophic Civil War that saw the deaths of many of their tribesmen and Cherokee as well.

We will lose the ability to comprehend the intent and real meaning of what other people say as our own subjective opinions trump any consideration what the opponent might have actually meant. Our sense of community and humanity will perish under the poison of intentional slander of the Other Kind.We will lose our trust in science as it becomes subverted into a new form of Lysenkoism in the service of political ideology. We will close our borders entirely due to the inability to have faith and trust in those 'not of our kind' as our incomprehension forces us to rely on trivialities like common appearance. Our governments ability to manage our nations policies and affairs, already well undermined, will completely collapse as the economic wherewithal falls far short of our exploding humane needs.

Of course none of this is a certainty. I am just connecting points on a hypothetical blank sheet, but if we do not restore the best of our Modern World View, the population of Planet Earth will fall to under a billion people by 2200, IMO, and most of that will be uncontrolled catastrophe and also applauded by nitwits who think it a good thing to happen.

What are you talking about?

In one sentence...what is your point, please?
 
No doubt such an alternative would have to be powerful as hell. No pun intended! I just wonder if there's some kind of ideology or approach out there that could still unite us in some way on a large scale. I'm not even convinced, at this point, that some kind of cataclysmic event would be enough. In other words, then, something in between religion, which we appear to be rejecting more and more, and pure tribalism, which is where we're headed.
An updated secular Deism?
Interesting thought, but no, I'm thinking (and remember I'm just making this up as I go here) more along the lines of an additional, parallel ideology that has no deistic elements. Deism/religion would just remain on its own track.

I dunno. I definitely think that we still have a long way to evolve in many ways, and that there might be some kind of connective device down the road. Maybe at a higher intellectual level, or a different direction, more organic/humanistic. If we don't destroy ourselves first.
.

I am thinking we need an umbrela set of values that arches over the common elements of just about every major religion.

Deism was just the first idea for that, but it could be a revised version more friendly to both secularists and adherents of most religions.
 
I don't see any reason to believe this current trajectory is going to change, Jim. While I'm not religious, it's not difficult to recognize that it can create and manage social rules that can be cohesive on a larger scale. They can clearly provide general moral boundaries that are clearly in decay right now.

So you may want to revise this to, "If we are not guided by Judeo-Christian principles in this century, or if they are not replaced with another socially binding ideology, I think it will be our last as a Modern Civilization", something like that.

Just a thought.
.
I dont think that ideology can replace Judeo-Christianity in the role of making certain axioms universal.

Whether you agree or disagree with the axioms of Marxism, Libertarianism, etc, that is just disagreement of ones opinions, but with Judeo-Christian values you have the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount which are not mere opinion and carry much more weight with the believer.

As far as various religions go, the pacifism found in JC is also very helpful for the long term prospects of humanity, though often ignored by its followers.
Too often we encounter these bland and unproven assertions the only valid set of moral principles are Judaeo-Christian. Putting aside for now the question of WHICH particular branch of Judea-Christianity is referrenced here we are in danger of ignoring centuries of philosophical writing on morallity by blindly claiming all to have no validity.
On the other hand there are some serious questions to be addressed by anyone who believes a deity who would torture his own son ( who according to some forms of trinitarian theology is actually himself) to atone for (redeem?) sins he made possible in the first place by granting our species free will when (if we accept the idea of the Creators omniscience) he knew beforehand our species would abuse that freedom . As a moral tale it’s not very instructive and that’s before we address the question of the psychological effect of raising the young to worship an almost naked man nailed to a cross by his father and the difficult question of the relationship between this and the all too common phenomena of a those attracted to Christian ministry and pedophelia.
2nd . Thessalonians Ch2.V11 as it too often does, comes to mind.
 
I don't see any reason to believe this current trajectory is going to change, Jim. While I'm not religious, it's not difficult to recognize that it can create and manage social rules that can be cohesive on a larger scale. They can clearly provide general moral boundaries that are clearly in decay right now.

So you may want to revise this to, "If we are not guided by Judeo-Christian principles in this century, or if they are not replaced with another socially binding ideology, I think it will be our last as a Modern Civilization", something like that.

Just a thought.
.
I dont think that ideology can replace Judeo-Christianity in the role of making certain axioms universal.

Whether you agree or disagree with the axioms of Marxism, Libertarianism, etc, that is just disagreement of ones opinions, but with Judeo-Christian values you have the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount which are not mere opinion and carry much more weight with the believer.

As far as various religions go, the pacifism found in JC is also very helpful for the long term prospects of humanity, though often ignored by its followers.
Too often we encounter these bland and unproven assertions the only valid set of moral principles are Judaeo-Christian. Putting aside for now the question of WHICH particular branch of Judea-Christianity is referrenced here we are in danger of ignoring centuries of philosophical writing on morallity by blindly claiming all to have no validity.
On the other hand there are some serious questions to be addressed by anyone who believes a deity who would torture his own son ( who according to some forms of trinitarian theology is actually himself) to atone for (redeem?) sins he made possible in the first place by granting our species free will when (if we accept the idea of the Creators omniscience) he knew beforehand our species would abuse that freedom . As a moral tale it’s not very instructive and that’s before we address the question of the psychological effect of raising the young to worship an almost naked man nailed to a cross by his father and the difficult question of the relationship between this and the all too common phenomena of a those attracted to Christian ministry and pedophelia.
2nd . Thessalonians Ch2.V11 as it too often does, comes to mind.

The Bible doesn't say that the picture shall be pretty. It says only that it is true. And as for the free will urges, you get a prayer for not leading yourself into temptation. Hehe.
 
Too often we encounter these bland and unproven assertions the only valid set of moral principles are Judaeo-Christian. Putting aside for now the question of WHICH particular branch of Judea-Christianity is referrenced here we are in danger of ignoring centuries of philosophical writing on morallity by blindly claiming all to have no validity.
On the other hand there are some serious questions to be addressed by anyone who believes a deity who would torture his own son ( who according to some forms of trinitarian theology is actually himself) to atone for (redeem?) sins he made possible in the first place by granting our species free will when (if we accept the idea of the Creators omniscience) he knew beforehand our species would abuse that freedom . As a moral tale it’s not very instructive and that’s before we address the question of the psychological effect of raising the young to worship an almost naked man nailed to a cross by his father and the difficult question of the relationship between this and the all too common phenomena of a those attracted to Christian ministry and pedophelia.
2nd . Thessalonians Ch2.V11 as it too often does, comes to mind.

Yeah I always found it interesting that he would torture his own son who is actually himself. However I figured it out and finally grew up.
 

Forum List

Back
Top